Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[FreeGrace]

Brother, I was quoting what "he said" from another post.

He said, that John 10 was referring to His 12 disciples, and not all believers.

This is geting quite tired. Please provide the quote # for all to see. Otherwise, this is just another very empty and erroneous claim.

 

[FreeGrace]

Since you have no scripture that teaches us the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, then I won't answer, because, the answer is: There is no scripture that teaches us the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.


The burden is on you, not me, to provide scripture for what you are teaching.
JLB

It's quite sad when the very words of our Lord and Savior are dismissed as non Scriptural. That burden is on yourself.

 

[JLB]

It's quite sad when the very words of our Lord and Savior are dismissed as non Scriptural. That burden is on yourself.

Since you have no scripture that teaches us the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, then I won't answer, because, the answer is: There is no scripture that teaches us the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.


The burden is on you, not me, to provide scripture for what you are teaching.

 

[JLB]

This is geting quite tired. Please provide the quote # for all to see. Otherwise, this is just another very empty and erroneous claim.

Post number 2301.

This is a specific reference to the 12 original disciples. Not everyone who believes. So it's just a huge assumption that Judas ever believed.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe that any truly open minded and reasonable person can see that when Jesus said "they shall never perish" regarding those He gives eternal life, He was indicating that because of receiving the gift of eternal life, never perishing is just another way of saying it's irrevocable. But anyone may see it differently. But that doesn't justify their error.


Those who believe HAVE eternal life, so said Jesus: John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

clear.as.day.


Better than that. Those who believe are given eternal life and SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

clear.as.day. A saved person SHALL NEVER PERISH. Period.


And they SHALL NEVER PERISH. No such thing as losing salvation, for ANY reason. Jesus doen't permit such a view.


I never did, and when challenged for proof, where is it?

As usual, no evidence for your claims.

Yes the condition for eternal life is to believe.

Those who are Sheep, show that the believe by following Him.

What about those who believe for a while, then no longer believe?

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving.

• Believers are promised eternal life.
• The unbelieving are promised eternal death.

Both promises are true and from the Lord who can not lie.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Post number 2301.

Well, finally!!

So, let's see what was actually said in that post:

"You claimed:
Judas Iscariot was one of His sheep"

I replied:
"This has never been proven from Scriptures. Only assumption.

otoh, Scripture shows that he NEVER believed:
"64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him."
John 6
In the SAME BREATH, Jesus lumps Judas the betrayer with "them which did not believe". He was an unbeliever. Never believed."

This shows that it was John 6:64-70 that was about the 12 disciples, NOT John 5 and 10 as FALSELY claimed.

But I am getting used to these false claims. ;)

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes the condition for eternal life is to believe.

Those who are Sheep, show that the believe by following Him.

What about those who believe for a while, then no longer believe?

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving.

• Believers are promised eternal life.
• The unbelieving are promised eternal death.

Both promises are true and from the Lord who can not lie.

No argument. But the issue is clear; can a saved person perish? You've pushed the "yes" position, but in direct contradiction with our Lord and Savior.

He said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28. No one has argued that Jesus EVER gave eternal life to unbelievers or unsaved people, so His statement is a clear proclamation that those given eternal life will never perish.

It is also clear that He gave no conditions to those He gives eternal life. So simply on the basis of receiving eternal life, which is at the MOMENT of faith in Christ, He says THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, once saved, and given eternal life, that one SHALL NEVER PERISH. Opposite of what you push.

 

[Nathan]

Heb 3:12-15
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Do not let sin harden your hearts. Do not let lies of being like God take you to the point of being proud - thinking that because you did something you now are like God being eternal.

Know you are dust. Know that it is by grace, through faith God saved you. Believe in this, receive His gift - live in His life. Don't turn away from Him to your own personal view of salvation. He gives it, simply believe in Him alone for it.

 

[Gregg T]

Yes, springing up into eternal life, which denotes a process.

Did you notice the condition?

Ask of Me...10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” John 4:10

Wouldn't a person have to believe before they ask of Him for living water?


Do you ask Him for living water, believing; Do you ask Him in faith?

The point: He said ask and you shall receive. First we must believe Him, then we are to ask Him.

• Believe is the condition for receiving eternal life!

Jesus said of this water:

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8





Good point. This proves the context of John 10 27-28 is a reference to His 12 disciples.



JLB

You missed my point, and deflected again.

You asked FreeGrace to not use a verse in John because we now, or others then, were not the immediate audience. Sure, disarm the opponent by asking him to set aside Scripture you disagree with.

The nature of the life that God gives, that it begins at a point in time and thereafter is everlasting, does not change with the audience. God gives the same eternal life to all. He requires faith, a belief is His words, believing into Christ.

The {entering into Christ} is the beginning of eternal life.

 

[WIP]

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[JLB]

You missed my point, and deflected again.

You asked FreeGrace to not use a verse in John because we now, or others then, were not the immediate audience. Sure, disarm the opponent by asking him to set aside Scripture you disagree with.

The nature of the life that God gives, that it begins at a point in time and thereafter is everlasting, does not change with the audience. God gives the same eternal life to all. He requires faith, a belief is His words, believing into Christ.

The {entering into Christ} is the beginning of eternal life.

Brother I was reminding him of his words.

I am reminding him of his words, which said "Jesus was referring to the disciples and not all believers", in John.

I did not say this, those are his words.


Now please make a point from any scripture, and use scripture so we all can discuss.

My Point: Believe is the condition by which we are saved.

• Scripture text to support my point:

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Key Phrase: lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe is the condition by which we are saved through faith.


Agree or disagree?

The {entering into Christ} is the beginning of eternal life.

I agree.




JLB

 

[Nathan]

You missed my point, and deflected again.

You asked FreeGrace to not use a verse in John because we now, or others then, were not the immediate audience. Sure, disarm the opponent by asking him to set aside Scripture you disagree with.

The nature of the life that God gives, that it begins at a point in time and thereafter is everlasting, does not change with the audience. God gives the same eternal life to all. He requires faith, a belief is His words, believing into Christ.

The {entering into Christ} is the beginning of eternal life.

Eternal life, by definition, has no beginning or end. Eternal life does not 'begin' in us, it lives in us. Only God is eternal.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Brother I was reminding him of his words.

I am reminding him of his words, which said "Jesus was referring to the disciples and not all believers", in John.

I did not say this, those are his words.


Now please make a point from any scripture, and use scripture so we all can discuss.

My Point: Believe is the condition by which we are saved.

• Scripture text to support my point:

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Key Phrase: lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe is the condition by which we are saved through faith.


Agree or disagree?





I agree.




JLB

Is believing a work? If not, what then?

 

[JLB]

Is believing a work? If not, what then?

Yes, believing is the work God requires, which means: trust, commit, obey.

When we obey the Gospel, we do so by confessing Jesus as Lord, which mean Master.

This is the obedience of faith, which is the work or action of repenting.

Repent means to turn to God.

If we are called to repent, in which we are commanded to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn from Satan as our Lord, so that when we confess Jesus as Lord, He translates us out of the domain of Satan, into the kingdom of God, and our past sins are forgiven.

This is what Jesus called Paul to do, among the Gentiles.

16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:16-18

• to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins

Those who believe the Gospel, obey the Gospel, by confessing Jesus as Lord.


From this point we are to live our life according to the life of Jesus Christ, empowered by the Spirit within, rather than obeying the sin, and it's desires that dwells in our flesh.


“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46



JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yes, believing is the work God requires, which means: trust, commit, obey.

When we obey the Gospel, we do so by confessing Jesus as Lord, which mean Master.

This is the obedience of faith, which is the work or action of repenting.

Repent means to turn to God.

If we are called to repent, in which we are commanded to turn to God, then by default we are called to turn from Satan as our Lord, so that when we confess Jesus as Lord, He translates us out of the domain of Satan, into the kingdom of God, and our past sins are forgiven.

This is what Jesus called Paul to do, among the Gentiles.

16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:16-18

• to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins

Those who believe the Gospel, obey the Gospel, by confessing Jesus as Lord.


From this point we are to live our life according to the life of Jesus Christ, empowered by the Spirit within, rather than obeying the sin, and it's desires that dwells in our flesh.


“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46



JLB

So then, if a work (believing) is required for salvation, then salvation is of works. Or in this case, a work. And, salvation is conditional ("Believe is the condition by which we are saved through faith."). Not simply dependent on the finished work of Christ, but conditioned on a work done by the person. Then it's Jesus and me, the hopes of glory.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal life, by definition, has no beginning or end. Eternal life does not 'begin' in us, it lives in us. Only God is eternal.

I don't believe anyone ever claimed that "eternal life begin in us". Because that doesn't make any sense.

Eternal life is God's life. He is eternal.

What happens when God gives His eternal life to mortals? What's the result?

 

[Nathan]

I don't believe anyone ever claimed that "eternal life begin in us". Because that doesn't make any sense.

Eternal life is God's life. He is eternal.

What happens when God gives His eternal life to mortals? What's the result?

When God gives His life we become alive, we know Him, we understand Him.

What happens when people deny Gods eternal life?

Can people retain Gods eternal life if they deny Him?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

In Acts 7, if Stephen had not had God's peace that passes all understanding, do you believe that he could have "cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge" ?

What is it that gives the Christian peace, even on their death bed; is it knowing that whether they live or die, that they are in God's hand even though they have not always been faithful in the life that they lived.

Hard to answer this question never being in a death bed situation but I would say it's simply the peace that they know they are going to heaven and they know that they were faithful at least during the latter parts of their life.

Sure all have sinned and come short before the glory of life...but some eventually turn to God, get saved and start living right and being faithful.

 

[FreeGrace]

When God gives His life we become alive, we know Him, we understand Him.

OK.

What happens when people deny Gods eternal life?

I don't know what this means or refers to. What kind of people is being referred to here? Those who have already believed, and then changed their minds, or those who have never believed?

Can people retain Gods eternal life if they deny Him?

Once given eternal life, Jesus says they will never perish. So, that should answer your question.

 

[Nathan]

OK.


I don't know what this means or refers to. What kind of people is being referred to here? Those who have already believed, and then changed their minds, or those who have never believed?


Once given eternal life, Jesus says they will never perish. So, that should answer your question.

Do you believe those people are eternal like God?