Bible Study Great Secrets And Revelation Of The Cross.

[Soul man]

And would a good place to learn is what we have in Christ, like in Ephesians? Who we are in Christ?

Yes, also read Gal. Chapter 1, to see Pauls revelation of the Indwelling Christ.
Romans 6, is where we learn about yielding to the HolySpirit. He is the teacher of the Christ life.
Pauls revelation can be our revelation, we need to understand that a revelation exists for the believer.

 

[Chopper]

Hi David. You asked, "Doesn't suffering cause death to the old man?" I liked what my side-kick Soul man said, and the Scripture he posted Romans 6:6, is a great statement on the results of Jesus' death on the cross....Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Since you, me, and Soul man (not Reba, because she has always been perfect) have been crucified on the same cross as Jesus, the initial sanctification and destruction of the "old man" had it's beginning. Now look at....

James 1:2 "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (KJV)

James 1:2 "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (ESV)

Please notice, "trials of various kinds" That tells us that there will be trials that go beyond the initial death that the old man suffered on the cross with Jesus....Again, your question, "Doesn't suffering cause death to the old man?" The answer is yes. that's where it death to the old man had it's beginning. BUT, since the old man is still with us says the Apostle Paul in Romans seven, we need continual suffering to gradually defeat or destroy the lusts of that old man.

Does this make sense to you?

 

[Soul man]

Romans 5:17, For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

The believers reign in life comes by the cross. As sin came by one, so has reigning in life come by one, even Jesus Christ.
Romans 5, there is no better place to see how God deals with humanity based on being in Adam or in Christ. First Adam, last Adam. He basically is not dealing with man based on just what they do or don't do as an individual.
He deals with an individual based on where they are at, which Adam they are in.
First Adam, ever working in and through the world (schoolhouse) to bring salvation to sinners.
Those in the last Adam, He deals with completely different. We are learning the family spirit.
The word used for this is the "spirit of adoption," we are the bonified offspring of God the Father. We are not adopted, we are learning this family that we knew nothing about, the spirit of adoption.
When you look at your spiritual growth and how you have grown. That is the spirit of adoption, learning Christ, being taught about your Father, learning how the HolySpirit works on behalf of the born again.
The cross makes all this possible, without the cross there is no reigning in life.
Adam-life, death-life, sin-life reigned until Christ.

 

[DavidC]

Hi David. You asked, "Doesn't suffering cause death to the old man?" I liked what my side-kick Soul man said, and the Scripture he posted Romans 6:6, is a great statement on the results of Jesus' death on the cross....Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Since you, me, and Soul man (not Reba, because she has always been perfect) have been crucified on the same cross as Jesus, the initial sanctification and destruction of the "old man" had it's beginning. Now look at....

James 1:2 "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (KJV)

James 1:2 "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (ESV)

Please notice, "trials of various kinds" That tells us that there will be trials that go beyond the initial death that the old man suffered on the cross with Jesus....Again, your question, "Doesn't suffering cause death to the old man?" The answer is yes. that's where it death to the old man had it's beginning. BUT, since the old man is still with us says the Apostle Paul in Romans seven, we need continual suffering to gradually defeat or destroy the lusts of that old man.

Does this make sense to you?

Yes, thank you.
After the death of the old man, the suffering and trials we face, is this sanctification?

 

[ezrider]

The believers reign in life comes by the cross.

No. The believers reign in LIFE comes by the Resurrection. It does not come by the cross. Only DEATH comes by the cross, but it is a door you must pass through.

Speaking of doors you must pass through. To pass through the gate to enter the city, as in the parable of entering through the eye of the needle, you just may have to lay down your cross in order to enter the city. More on the at later.

 

[ezrider]

The cross makes all this possible, without the cross there is no reigning in life.

I must also disagree with that statement as well. We have the cross to look at. It is a place where we can perceive Heaven and Earth meeting. It was done for a witness for that generation. But the cross did not make it all possible, the WORD of God made it possible. By His WORD were all things created.

And the Spirit of God moved, and God said, let there be light............ And God said let the earth bring forth living creatures....

By His WORD does He make it possible. By His Word He created the Heavens and the Earth. Why does He need the cross to make this possible?

The cross is a stumbling block to the Jews. It can become an idol. It bears a certain mark.

Do you place you faith in the cross?
Or do you place your Faith in Christ?

 

[ezrider]

As Jesus hung upon the cross, he said I Thirst. As they served him his cup full of vinegar and gall he did not drink of the cup, he let the cup pass, as he prayed the Father three times, to let this cup pass.

Psalm 69:21-22
They gave me also gall for my meat;
and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
Let their table become a snare before them:
and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

In my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. A prophetic reference to Jesus as he was crucified upon the cross. If the cross was for their welfare, how did it become a snare and a trap? How has it become a stumbling block?

 

[ezrider]

The Cross represents the DEATH of Christ. The cross represents the place where we come to reckon ourselves dead with Christ. The cross represents the reconciliation for the first death which came by the commandment through Adam.

If you have not reckoned yourself dead with Christ, then you have not risen with Christ. Life comes by the Resurrection. Those written in the book of Life are part of the First Resurrection.

But if you can not reckon yourself dead with Christ, and I mean more than just quoting the words out of the Bible and glorying in your own knowledge of it. This isn't just a name it and claim it: Hey, I'm dead with Christ, I read it in a book and if the book says its true it must be true. No, this is much much more than that. To be crucified with Christ, you must come to a true understanding of the knowledge of your Death With Him. If you haven't reckoned yourself dead with Christ, then you are subject to the SECOND DEATH.

The Cross will not save you from the Second Death.


How have you crucified yourselves with Christ? How have you reckoned yourselves dead with Christ? Can you explain it in your own words? After all, it is your personal death.

 

[Chopper]

Yes, thank you.
After the death of the old man, the suffering and trials we face, is this sanctification?

Yes, it's part of that process.

 

[ezrider]

Soul man, I'll address you because Chopper appears to be ignoring any of my comments and has yet to respond to anything I have posted. Anyhow, as I have been re-reading through the comments on this thread, as well as your comments in your "New Creation" threads, a thought came to my mind that I had to take notes before it faded.

We all know the scripture that says we are crucified with Christ. We are each to reckon ourselves dead with Christ. But the thought that came to my mind was when are we crucified with Christ? Are we crucified with Christ just because He was crucified on the cross nearly 2000 years ago? I was not born 2000 years ago, so how could I be crucified with Him? I was not one of the thieves who was crucified with Him at the time. Yet, it is important to recognize that the two thieves were crucified with Christ on their own crosses. They carried their own cross to their crucifixion just as Jesus did.

So when were you or I crucified with Jesus? Our own crucifixion with with Christ did not occur when Jesus was crucified, our crucifixion with Christ happens when we finally reckon ourselves to be dead to the law, and we stop carrying around our own cross, for it is such a burden, and allow ourselves to be crucified with Christ. We each are crucified with Christ in our own time.

What I see now is we are first led to the Cross where we meet Christ in His Death, believing that He has risen. We start reading our Bibles and learning the knowledge of good and evil. We learn the law and the commandments that are unto death. We learn from our schoolmaster. We learn to walk with the Lord in faith. But we are also to follow his voice, for my sheep hear my voice. But when Faith has come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster, and we follow Christ back to the cross while we reckon our own death under the law. When we find it, we are to crucify ourselves with Christ, knowing that we shall be risen with Him.

 

[ezrider]

I know you are addressing Chopper, but I wanted to emphasize that the teachings of Christ before the cross held very little knowledge, especially Spiritual knowledge, to those, including the disciples until Christ was taken up and the Holy Spirit sent down.

This is still true today for those who have not crucified themselves with Christ, yet remain dead under the law before the cross. They still don't understand the law is spiritual, and was not meant for the flesh. For instance, some would tell you that when Jesus said if you hate your brother you have committed murder in your heart, that he was giving you a new law that you must confess as sin. But Jesus was just explaining the depths of the Law. That the Law of thou shall not commit murder went so deep as to declare that even conceiving of hatred with out cause was considered to be murder. It was the depths of the law and the works of the law that is to bring us to reckoning ourselves dead with Christ, and dead to the law.

But you are right. Without the Spirit of the Lord, those words hold little Spiritual understanding. The carnal mind tends to see those word as just another set or laws and commandments to live by; and more sins that they must repent of. Some see the command to forgive one another as a just another law that they must follow. Like Moses before him, Jesus was a law giver, and was formed in the image of a man. The Cross provided the means to demonstrate the power of the resurrection after His Death, so that after he had risen and was taken up, that the Holy Spirit could then be sent down.

But there was also another reason that the temple of his body was to be destroyed upon the cross. For thou shall not worship the image of a man. We are to know the Spirit of Christ, we are to worship the Lord in Spirit, but many wait upon and worship the image of a man.

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[Hermit]

...You will be able too see if it's Christ or the Holy Spirit. We can not mix the two up, it causes confusion in your growth...

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

 

[Soul man]

So when were you or I crucified with Jesus? Our own crucifixion with with Christ did not occur when Jesus was crucified, our crucifixion with Christ happens when we finally reckon ourselves to be dead to the law, and we stop carrying around our own cross, for it is such a burden, and allow ourselves to be crucified with Christ. We each are crucified with Christ in our own time.

The moment you believed, 2Cor. 5:14,
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

The world is dead in Christ, you must believe to be born again.
All in Adam died when he died in Christ on the cross. Christ crucified Adam, the oldman. We were in Adam, now we believe unto salvation.

 

[Soul man]

What I see now is we are first led to the Cross where we meet Christ in His Death, believing that He has risen. We start reading our Bibles and learning the knowledge of good and evil. We learn the law and the commandments that are unto death. We learn from our schoolmaster. We learn to walk with the Lord in faith. But we are also to follow his voice, for my sheep hear my voice. But when Faith has come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster, and we follow Christ back to the cross while we reckon our own death under the law. When we find it, we are to crucify ourselves with Christ, knowing that we shall be risen with Him.

Just a thought here, can you see your completion in Christ, in spirit at the cross the moment you believed.
Being completed in soul, in other words are you able, in your understanding, to divide the two.

 

[DavidC]

The moment you believed, 2Cor. 5:14,
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

The world is dead in Christ, you must believe to be born again..

Is the world really dead IN Christ? The world is not in Christ, correct?
I understand the premise, the world is dead until and unless prople are born again.
Thanks,

 

[billybalke]

Just a thought here, can you see your completion in Christ, in spirit at the cross the moment you believed.
Being completed in soul, in other words are you able, in your understanding, to divide the two.

Hi Soul Man. Are are you still interested in discussing on the one on one? God bless

 

[Chopper]

Ok, are you Forum Folk ready for another segment? Good! Here it is....

Calvary and Pentecost are inseparable. Calvary always sends a man on to Pentecost. Why? Because Pentecost involves the coming of the Holy Spirit and the formation of Jesus' Church. There are two Baptism's of the Holy Spirit. The first is when all believers in Christ Jesus are Baptized OF the Holy Spirit into the family of God at Salvation. The second is the Baptism IN the Holy Spirit IN His power and ministry at Pentecost. Now, Pentecost is always sending a man back to Calvary....You never can know the power of Pentecost unless the power of the cross is working in you. Death to the old man must always be at work in the Believer....
Luke 9:23 "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Nothing can set us apart for God, nothing can make us holy, except as the cross of Jesus Christ is working in us, because the cross alone can keep the hindrances to holiness in the place of death to the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

The cross-filled and cross-governed life will continually remind us that a thought which God would disapprove of should not be done because we are dead to that desire. The point of contact for the Holy Spirit is the cross, and if you and I ever get away from the cross we get away from the Holy Spirit. Remember....Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The intended effect of the cross is DEATH. And so we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God.

Death my friends produces Life in us....Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

 

[Soul man]

Is the world really dead IN Christ? The world is not in Christ, correct?
I understand the premise, the world is dead until and unless prople are born again.
Thanks,

2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Yes all in Adam are dead to God, in Christ the sin nature was/is crucified, we believe to be saved. Reconciliation is made by the Atoning blood of Jesus, Gods sacrificial lamb.
Sin is dealt with on the cross, "believe on the lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

 

[Soul man]

Hi Soul Man. Are are you still interested in discussing on the one on one? God bless[/QUOTE

Yes I'm still interested, thanks.

 

[billybalke]

Thank you sir. If you will please contact WIP who moderates the one on one. He will put us on. Make your affirmative and I shall answer. Lets keep it orderly and Christian. God bless.