Bible Study The Rapture

[for_his_glory]

Tricky.
Which scripture; where was he, and who was he? Was he on Patmos?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

God gave it to Jesus, Jesus gave it to Gods angel who gave it to John to write to the seven churches in Asia while he was on the isle of Patmos as he was imprisoned there for the witness and testimony of Christ in Asia as the Romans exiled many prisoners to the isle of Patmos.

 

[reba]

The Purpose of the (literal) 1000 year reign is to fulfill The promises of Israel as a nation and restore her earthly glory among the nations under the rule of the son of David (Christ) (a perpetual promise). (2 Sam. 7:4-19) (Psalms 89:20-37) Study it, this is called the Davidic Covenant. (Psalms 89:34-35).

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Purpose of the (literal) 1000 year reign is to fulfill The promises of Israel as a nation and restore her earthly glory among the nations under the rule of the son of David (Christ) (a perpetual promise). (2 Sam. 7:4-19) (Psalms 89:20-37) Study it, this is called the Davidic Covenant. (Psalms 89:34-35).

During the seventh trumpet the kingdoms of the world will now become the kingdoms of the Lord as He will reign forever destroying mystery Babylon after she is revealed. Jesus will take the beast and false prophet and cast them into the lake of fire. The remnant that bowed down and worshipped the beast will also be slain by Jesus when He returns at that time. Rev 11:15 - Chapter 19. When the New Jerusalem is ushered down after God renews the heaven and earth then will Jesus sit on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem, Jeremiah 33:14-16; Rev 11:15, 15.

The promise will have already been fulfilled when Jesus takes His seat on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem. This takes place after Satan is bound, released and his evil angels that compass the camp of the saints (the Church being the body of Christ who are now with Him) are consumed by the fire Gods sends down from heaven, then Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20.

Do you really think that it is going to be a literal 1000 years from the time Satan is bound and then released. Gods timing is not the same as ours as a 1000 years here is symbolic like that of Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[Douglas Summers]

During the seventh trumpet the kingdoms of the world will now become the kingdoms of the Lord as He will reign forever destroying mystery Babylon after she is revealed. Jesus will take the beast and false prophet and cast them into the lake of fire. The remnant that bowed down and worshipped the beast will also be slain by Jesus when He returns at that time. Rev 11:15 - Chapter 19. When the New Jerusalem is ushered down after God renews the heaven and earth then will Jesus sit on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem, Jeremiah 33:14-16; Rev 11:15, 15.

The promise will have already been fulfilled when Jesus takes His seat on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem. This takes place after Satan is bound, released and his evil angels that compass the camp of the saints (the Church being the body of Christ who are now with Him) are consumed by the fire Gods sends down from heaven, then Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20.

Do you really think that it is going to be a literal 1000 years from the time Satan is bound and then released. Gods timing is not the same as ours as a 1000 years here is symbolic like that of Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

Pretty much so glory, except that there is another battle at the end of the 1000 years (yes, I believe in a literal 1000 years). The 1000 years Begins with the battle of Armageddon and the second return of Christ (Chapter 19) and the 1000 years ends with the battle of Gog and Magog (Rev. 20:7-10). After that is when God creates a new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:1)

 

[Douglas Summers]

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

All of Israel during Joshua and Caleb was under the Palestinian Covenant (Deut. 30:1-9) . The rule of the Kingdom of Israel is under the Davidic Covenant and will never be broken. The Covenant (2 Sam. 7:4-19) (Psalms 89:20-37). The book of Matthew was Christ coming to fulfill that Covenant, The Gospel of The Kingdom, But was rejected, So God postponed it and the Millennial will be it's fulfillment.

 

[Eugene]

BTW, I am enjoying our sharing all this together with a civil attitude towards each other

Me too my sweet sister in Christ.

I must ask you where it says that these Jews and Gentiles weren't ready for the rapture (I believe Jesus only returns once for His Church) and when did Jesus meet the twenty four elders and the four beast in the air? I do not see that in Rev 4, 6.

Rev 7:9 . . . I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number (Were there more born to God during this first three and one-half years of tribulation into the body of Christ than the previous two thousand years?), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Notice the reward these of the great multitude possess; palms.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Why weren’t these of the great multitude caught up with the twenty-four elders in Rev 4:4 and four beasts of Rev 4:6 prior to the tribulation?

What are some of the differences of the twenty-four elders and four beasts from them of the great multitude?
Rev 5:9 And they (24 elders & 4 beasts) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (Actually over the earth while in heaven) the earth.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they (the great multitude) before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Did John actually see these different saints in different proximities to God’s throne? Evidently. the 24 elders & 4 beasts are round bout the throne (Rev 4:4), and the 4 beasts were in the midst of the throne and round bout the throne (Rev 4:6).
There are two portions of the Church in Revelation Chapters Two & Three that are commended and said to have crowns, and they are Smyrna (Rev 2:10), and Philadelphia (Rev 3:10-11).
The remaining five churches are told to repent. Ephesus in Rev 2:5, Pergamos in Rev 2:16, Thyatira is even told they will go into great tribulation unless they repent in Rev 2:22, Sardis in Rev 3:3, and notice that Jesus will come on them as a thief, and they shall not know what hour He will come upon them. (Is this why they were not caught up with the first rank of those caught up to God?), and finally the Laodiceans of Rev 3:19 are told to repent.
Thanks again.

 

[Chopper]

I stopped watching at 9 minutes. My bible says A new covenant not a renewed covenant

That's to bad. you missed a lot of explanation why. Your Bible, New Covenant, was written in Greek. The true Scriptures were written in Yahshua's language, Aramaic/Hebrew. Your preconceptions will always be a stumbling block to revelation, think about it.

 

[Roro1972]

That's to bad. you missed a lot of explanation why. Your Bible, New Covenant, was written in Greek. The true Scriptures were written in Yahshua's language, Aramaic/Hebrew. Your preconceptions will always be a stumbling block to revelation, think about it.

Ok so I went back and watched the whole video. It seems like this is based on one word that todays scholars claim the old scholars interpretation may be wrong. chodash or chadesh adjective or noun.
I have to gather more info before I decide.

 

[for_his_glory]

Pretty much so glory, except that there is another battle at the end of the 1000 years (yes, I believe in a literal 1000 years). The 1000 years Begins with the battle of Armageddon and the second return of Christ (Chapter 19) and the 1000 years ends with the battle of Gog and Magog (Rev. 20:7-10). After that is when God creates a new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:1)

Rev 16:11-16; 19:11-21 There are two battles that will occur as the first is when Satan, the beast and false prophet gathers all the kings (political leaders) of the world to fight against Jesus and His army of angels (not the Church even though we are gathered to Him at that time) from heaven when he returns. The only thing that happens is the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire and the remnant being the kings are slain by Jesus who speaks their death. Satan is bound for a time and then let loose as he makes one more attempt to battle against the saints (Church which is now with Jesus), but his army of unholy angels as they surround the camp of the saints are consumed by the fire God sends down to destroy them and Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

Armageddon is not a literal place you can locate on a map, but is symbolic of many areas north of Israel where the great battles of the .Old Testament were fought. Armageddon derives from the Hebrew word Har-mageddon which means the Hill of Megiddo which is found in the Carmel mountains. Megiddo is the key for understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word Har-mageddon or the hill of Megiddo which is called Armageddon in scripture. Gog and Magog in Rev 20:8 is not a literal place, but means an evil power from all four corners of the world like that in Ezekiel 38:1-4 that came against Israel and was defeated.

 

[for_his_glory]

Me too my sweet sister in Christ.

Rev 7:9 . . . I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number (Were there more born to God during this first three and one-half years of tribulation into the body of Christ than the previous two thousand years?), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Notice the reward these of the great multitude possess; palms.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Why weren’t these of the great multitude caught up with the twenty-four elders in Rev 4:4 and four beasts of Rev 4:6 prior to the tribulation?

What are some of the differences of the twenty-four elders and four beasts from them of the great multitude?
Rev 5:9 And they (24 elders & 4 beasts) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (Actually over the earth while in heaven) the earth.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they (the great multitude) before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Did John actually see these different saints in different proximities to God’s throne? Evidently. the 24 elders & 4 beasts are round bout the throne (Rev 4:4), and the 4 beasts were in the midst of the throne and round bout the throne (Rev 4:6).
There are two portions of the Church in Revelation Chapters Two & Three that are commended and said to have crowns, and they are Smyrna (Rev 2:10), and Philadelphia (Rev 3:10-11).
The remaining five churches are told to repent. Ephesus in Rev 2:5, Pergamos in Rev 2:16, Thyatira is even told they will go into great tribulation unless they repent in Rev 2:22, Sardis in Rev 3:3, and notice that Jesus will come on them as a thief, and they shall not know what hour He will come upon them. (Is this why they were not caught up with the first rank of those caught up to God?), and finally the Laodiceans of Rev 3:19 are told to repent.
Thanks again.

I believe Rev 7:9, 13, 14 is speaking of all, Jew and Gentile, who died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ who witnessed and testified of Him. They are those who came out of great tribulation that has always been or another word great persecution before the return of the Lord, but it's only their breath/spirit that returns back to God in heaven,Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. Many more are and will die a martyr's death until Christ returns.

I believe John is given visions of these revelations as things only he can see, but to us is not always literal, but symbolic in there meaning.

The background of the twenty four elders is found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. In chapter 24, the Levitical priesthood is divided into 24 divisions according to the schedule of their service. They were officials of the sanctuary and of the house of God. In Chapter 25 the Levitical priests are further divided into 24 divisions and responsible for the worship of the sanctuary, in particular the music of that worship. In Chapter 26, the Levitical priests are again divided into 24 gatekeepers for the house of God.

The twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.

The four beasts around the throne are Seraphim that have six wings. Two wings to fly with, two wings to cover their feet and two wings to cover their faces. They fly around the throne of God singing his praises as they call attention to Gods attributes, Isaiah 6:1-3. The first beast was like a lion that represents Gods majesty and omnipotence. The second beast was likened unto an ox which is typical of faithful labor and patience. The third beast had a face of a man that indicates Gods intelligence and the fourth beast had a face like an eagle that represents supreme sovereignty. They give glory and honor and thanks to God who sits on his throne as only he alone is worthy of praise.

There are five crowns as our reward that we received when Christ returns.
1. Crown of life James 1:12
2. Crown of glory 1 Peter 5:1-5
3. Crown of rejoicing 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 20; Philippians 4:1
4. Crown of righteousness 2 Timothy 4:8; Isaiah 45:24; 61:10
5. Crown incorruptible 1 Corinthians 9:25-27

The seven churches represent all who are in Christ and He in them from generation to generation as some need disciplined. Only through that of Jesus being the final sacrifice for the atonement of sin can we become a royal priesthood joined to him when He returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Peter 2:9. The seven spirits are that of Christ, Isaiah 11:1, 2.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Armageddon is not a literal place you can locate on a map, but is symbolic of many areas north of Israel where the great battles of the .Old Testament were fought. Armageddon derives from the Hebrew word Har-mageddon which means the Hill of Megiddo which is found in the Carmel mountains. Megiddo is the key for understanding the meaning of the Hebrew word Har-mageddon or the hill of Megiddo which is called Armageddon in scripture. Gog and Magog in Rev 20:8 is not a literal place, but means an evil power from all four corners of the world like that in Ezekiel 38:1-4 that came against Israel and was defeated.

Yes, I understand the translations. But that did not answer that there is a 1000 year reign between the two battles (do you believe this?) As I believe, before God creates a new Heaven and Earth as I gave Scripture in the contributing post before this. #124

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, I understand the translations. But that did not answer that there is a 1000 year reign between the two battles (do you believe this?) As I believe, before God creates a new Heaven and Earth as I gave Scripture in the contributing post before this. #124

A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8. From the time Satan is bound I can not understand why God would wait another 1000 years to release him. What would be the purpose?

 

[Eugene]

I believe Rev 7:9, 13, 14 is speaking of all, Jew and Gentile, who died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ who witnessed and testified of Him. They are those who came out of great tribulation that has always been or another word great persecution before the return of the Lord, but it's only their breath/spirit that returns back to God in heaven,Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. Many more are and will die a martyr's death until Christ returns.

Hi Sister for_his_glory, due to the fact that our replies seem to grow in size exponentially, I’m again going to answer one thought of this last post of yours per reply.

Why would the Great Multitude said to be seen standing before God’s throne not be in heaven?
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb (Where is Jesus at that time?), clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Will saints already be seen with their reward prior to being in heaven?)

If I remember right, you said you have scripture telling you who Jesus’ angel is. If you examine that scripture you’ll discover the timing, and the location of him.

 

[Eugene]

I believe John is given visions of these revelations as things only he can see, but to us is not always literal, but symbolic in there meaning.
The background of the twenty four elders is found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. In chapter 24, the Levitical priesthood is divided into 24 divisions according to the schedule of their service. They were officials of the sanctuary and of the house of God. In Chapter 25 the Levitical priests are further divided into 24 divisions and responsible for the worship of the sanctuary, in particular the music of that worship. In Chapter 26, the Levitical priests are again divided into 24 gatekeepers for the house of God.

I agree the number twenty-four could very well fit your analysis of their priestly service as we read in Rev 5:10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (actually over the earth - they’re in heaven).

This is actually the place the twenty-four elders & four beast earn, are caught up first to be with Jesus, and we read of in 2Ti 2:12. If we suffer (endure), we shall also reign with him, and I believe this to be the special the bride of Christ will have as joint heirs.

 

[Roro1972]

That's to bad. you missed a lot of explanation why. Your Bible, New Covenant, was written in Greek. The true Scriptures were written in Yahshua's language, Aramaic/Hebrew. Your preconceptions will always be a stumbling block to revelation, think about it.

I took this from a web site. It is my understanding. This explains better than I can.
http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs1.htm
In the second chapter of Corinthians we see where Paul lists three differences between these two covenants.


2Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


...6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

What Paul was saying was that the Old Covenant which was engraved in stones was glorious but that the ministry of the Spirit was more glorious, because the glory of the ministry of the law given Moses was passing away .The glory of the New overshadows the glory of the old. Thus we see that the first was a temporary one whose glory passed away, yet the New being eternal, remains.

The Old was a ministry of condemnation (v9) and death (v7), the New is the ministry of life(v6) and righteousness(v9).The law is holy but due to man´s inability to adhere to it, it became a ministry of death, showing us that man can never be righteous by his own efforts. As Isaiah the prophet said, all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Hence the need for God to provide the only way to Him, based on the righteousness of Christ.

It has been suggested that some who propagate the faulty scholarship regarding renew do so because if it is called a renewed covenant, they can then justify telling their adherents that they have to obey the Torah of Moses given at Sinai. Those who don't agree are considered non-believers and lost.

Some posit that God would never break His promise, so the Mosaic law or old covenant is still in effect. It is true that God cannot break His Word, which is what sealed the covenant with Abraham, Moses and for all other covenants. But people do break their word and promises, and the Scriptures do show that Israel was not faithful in keeping the Mosaic covenant. God repeatedly prefaced His instructions with "if" you do this, or "if" you don't.

God showed He could change the covenant because of their disobedience--and He broke it so that a better way would be known.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Sister for_his_glory, due to the fact that our replies seem to grow in size exponentially, I’m again going to answer one thought of this last post of yours per reply.

Why would the Great Multitude said to be seen standing before God’s throne not be in heaven?
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb (Where is Jesus at that time?), clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Will saints already be seen with their reward prior to being in heaven?)

If I remember right, you said you have scripture telling you who Jesus’ angel is. If you examine that scripture you’ll discover the timing, and the location of him.

Sorry as my replies are long at times. I have to learn not to give so much at one time, but it's hard.

Revelations is very much symbolic of past and future events as well as literal of past and future events as we see history repeating itself throughout the revelations.

The great multitude is in heaven, not physically (body), but only as being the breath/spirit that goes back to God who gave it as when we die this body goes back to the ground/grave. They, which means their spirit, only stand before the throne of God as the kingdoms of this world have not yet become the kingdoms of the Lord. Jesus is not yet seated on the throne of David as that will happen when the New Jerusalem is ushered down. For now Jesus only sits at the right hand of God. We do not receive our rewards until Jesus returns, Isaiah 62:11, 12; Rev 22:12.

The timing is when John was on the isle of Patmos around 95 AD and the angel is the angel of God who Jesus sent to John to give him all the revelations.

 

[Eugene]

The twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church.

Being that John is shown the twenty-four elders round bout God’s throne which is in heaven, could it be just the opposite and the elders of the church are patterned after those twenty-four elders of Rev 4:4 & Rev 5:6?
In Heb 8:4 For if he (Jesus, even at the time John was shown these things) were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things (are our elders also examples & shadows or types).

 

[Eugene]

The four beasts around the throne are Seraphim that have six wings. Two wings to fly with, two wings to cover their feet and two wings to cover their faces. They fly around the throne of God singing his praises as they call attention to Gods attributes, Isaiah 6:1-3. The first beast was like a lion that represents Gods majesty and omnipotence. The second beast was likened unto an ox which is typical of faithful labor and patience. The third beast had a face of a man that indicates Gods intelligence and the fourth beast had a face like an eagle that represents supreme sovereignty. They give glory and honor and thanks to God who sits on his throne as only he alone is worthy of praise.

This pretty much agrees with my thinking on the Four beasts as to the reason of their description. As we who are being changed into the very image of Christ take on His character, the New Scofield Bible describes the theme of the different gospels in the following manner.

Matthew shows Jesus as the King - the Lion?
Mark shows Jesus as a servant - the Ox? Mk 10:45
Luke shows Jesus as the man.
John shows the deity of Jesus - the Eagle in the heavens.

 

[for_his_glory]

Being that John is shown the twenty-four elders round bout God’s throne which is in heaven, could it be just the opposite and the elders of the church are patterned after those twenty-four elders of Rev 4:4 & Rev 5:6?
In Heb 8:4 For if he (Jesus, even at the time John was shown these things) were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things (are our elders also examples & shadows or types).

Yes, the elders of the church here on earth are to be patterned after them.
Hey, I kept it short

I know now why you and I click so well is that my middle name is Eugenia

 

[for_his_glory]

This pretty much agrees with my thinking on the Four beasts as to the reason of their description. As we who are being changed into the very image of Christ take on His character, the New Scofield Bible describes the theme of the different gospels in the following manner.

Matthew shows Jesus as the King - the Lion?
Mark shows Jesus as a servant - the Ox? Mk 10:45
Luke shows Jesus as the man.
John shows the deity of Jesus - the Eagle in the heavens.

cool analogy