Justification and Sanctification

[GodsGrace]

You can also drag your mouse over the text you want to highlight and then you'll see a pop-up giving you the option to "reply." Select that option and it'll start your response with that selection quoted.

This is easier and I've never tried it.
Will do.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh. Are others going to judge me as to where I end up?

No, others will judge you based on your interactions with others. Just as James pointed out in 2:15,16, which is an example of a huge hypocrite.

What do I care what others think?

How should I know?

We are to not make God ashamed of us because if we proclaim to be Christian, we should act as Christians.

And that was the point of James 2:14-26.

 

[JLB]

It occurred to me over night that your views are the same as that of the Roman Catholic Church. And all this time I thought I was debating an evangelical Arminian.

I’m Christian.

I don’t know what the rest of those labels mean.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, others will judge you based on your interactions with others. Just as James pointed out in 2:15,16, which is an example of a huge hypocrite.


How should I know?


And that was the point of James 2:14-26.

I think our conversation should end here.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
" But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”"

Same ole' verses.
So my reply to you meant nonthing?

If there is no truth in one's reply, then yes, they mean nothing.

So why do we speak to each other?

I can't answer for anyone else, but I believe it is polite to answer the posts of others. Unless they ask me to not reply any more.

How about answering my reply to you re the above being in the present tense?
What would your answer to that be?
To just keep posting the same posts??

Give me a reply, please.

I'll have to ask what you know about the present tense first. What does it mean or indicate to you?

Then I'll be able to answer your question.

Thanks.

 

[JLB]

Unsubstantiated opinion. The Holy Spirit guarantees our inheritance when He places the believer IN HIM. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

Is it your position that those who were in Christ, then severed from Him, are still saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

You can also drag your mouse over the text you want to highlight and then you'll see a pop-up giving you the option to "reply." Select that option and it'll start your response with that selection quoted.

I tried WIP.
I don't see the pop up...

Is this done BEFORE or AFTER "post reply"??

 

[GodsGrace]

You can also drag your mouse over the text you want to highlight and then you'll see a pop-up giving you the option to "reply." Select that option and it'll start your response with that selection quoted.

I GOT IT !!

It's done BEFORE "post reply"...!

Thanks.

 

[WIP]

I tried WIP.
I don't see the pop up...

Is this done BEFORE or AFTER "post reply"??

Here's a screen shot. I highlighted the text in your post and you can see the options shown.

 

[GodsGrace]

I said:
" But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”"

If there is no truth in one's reply, then yes, they mean nothing.


I can't answer for anyone else, but I believe it is polite to answer the posts of others. Unless they ask me to not reply any more.


I'll have to ask what you know about the present tense first. What does it mean or indicate to you?

Then I'll be able to answer your question.

Thanks.

You must be very much more intelligent than I am if you know what the present tense means and you assume that I don't.
I thought it meant the same for everyone who speaks English...
But apparently, I may be wrong and the meaning changes depending on who's speaking.

Yes. English.
So easy and yet so difficult when referring to biblical matters...

 

[GodsGrace]

Here's a screen shot. I highlighted the text in your post and you can see the options shown.

Yeah!
That's pretty nifty!
I've only been here over two years!!
Thanks again.

 

[JLB]

Consider these verses regarding justification:
Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 2:16 - know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith inChrist and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 3:24 - So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
The entire chapter of Romans 4

Might want to re-think your position.

Please reconcile these verses about justification into your theology.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

Only those who obey, are justified.

No one is justified by disobedience.

 

[FreeGrace]

OK.
I can't answer to all these quote things.

I have no idea what this refers to. My post was clear enough.

You're posting verses we haven't even discussed.
And there's just too much here.

Really? I cited/quoted 9 verses. They're not difficult verses.

What do you mean lost people haven't been judsged till the GWTJ?

Maybe this is a bit more difficult than I thought. What is the GWT? A JUDGMENT. Where the Judge, Jesus Christ, actually SENDS people to the lake of fire. Until then they are UNDER judgment, but not actually judged yet.

Aren't they in hell when they die?

That's not the judgment. Hell is just a holding cell, where they await judgment.

Syntax.
I know how to answer questions FreeGrace.
How dumb do you think I am anyway?
Syntax. Use syntax when y ou're replying to me.

OK, I'm the dumb one. What are you talking about?

You don't use full sentences. I don't know what we were talking about.

Just like Paul. It's called "elipsis".

Do you notice how you have no problem answering ME because I use full sentences that INCLUDE what we're talking about??
Use syntax.

I thought you lack of answering had more to do with not having an answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

Be Serious.
The 7 year period.
I mean really.
Who knows if the tribulation is even real.

Well, it's in the Bible and the Bible says it's 7 years. But since you're so unfamiliar with it, how in the world can you claim to even understand "enduring to the end"?

 

[FreeGrace]

In post 284, you said this:
"I think our conversation should end here."

And then you posted this:

You must be very much more intelligent than I am if you know what the present tense means and you assume that I don't.

I have no idea what you think about the present tense. Many Arminians have abused the tense to mean MUCH MORE than it really means.

Is this just a stall at answering my question?

I thought it meant the same for everyone who speaks English...
But apparently, I may be wrong and the meaning changes depending on who's speaking.

Please quit dodging and just tell me what you think it means.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please reconcile these verses about justification into your theology.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

Only those who obey, are justified.

No one is justified by disobedience.

James was referring to being justified in the eyes of others. That's what 2:18 is about.

 

[GodsGrace]

In post 284, you said this:
"I think our conversation should end here."

And then you posted this:

I have no idea what you think about the present tense. Many Arminians have abused the tense to mean MUCH MORE than it really means.

Is this just a stall at answering my question?


Please quit dodging and just tell me what you think it means.

I happen to know English pretty well.
I explained to you MANY TIMES what I meant by present tense.
Go back and take a look.
I'm through discussing with you unless you have specific questions.
Seems as though you don't really care about my answers.
Seems as though you feel I don't know the bible well enough.
So you really shouldn't be speaking to me anymore.

You'll find, however, that I DID explain the present tense to you and what it means.

I did this when you posted a bunch of verses and I told you why each one DOES NOT SUPPORT your theory.

 

[JLB]

James was referring to being justified in the eyes of others. That's what 2:18 is about.

I see. So your teaching that it is man that justifies us.

Well the scripture I quoted certainly does not teach this.

It is God who gave the command to offer Isaac on the altar, and it was God who justified Abraham when he obeyed and offered Isaac.

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:23-24

Our justification comes from God, when we obey Him.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I happen to know English pretty well.

I haven't questioned your language.

I explained to you MANY TIMES what I meant by present tense.

Since I've discussed with many Arminians, and a number have abused the present tense, I don't remember your posts about it.

Go back and take a look.

Now, how is that helpful? Could you at least provide post #s or threads with post #s so I don't have to spend countless hours looking?

I'm through discussing with you unless you have specific questions.

They were specific.

Seems as though you don't really care about my answers.

How is that? Because I don't agree with some of them?

Seems as though you feel I don't know the bible well enough.

Sorry that you feel that way. But since you clearly casted doubt on the Tribulation, you've given me that impression.

So you really shouldn't be speaking to me anymore.

I always answer the posts of others who comment on my posts. I believe that's the polite way to act. Ignoring others seems rather rude to me. If you don't want to continue discussion, then just stop replying to my posts. Then I'd have nothing to reply to.

Oh, and btw, if you really don't want any of my posts, just tell me so I won't reply to anything you post to others.

You'll find, however, that I DID explain the present tense to you and what it means.

Without a refresh, I have no idea what it means in your view.

I did this when you posted a bunch of verses and I told you why each one DOES NOT SUPPORT your theory.

People tell me a lot of things that are wrong, or don't even relate to my posts. So I'm not impressed with what people tell me.

What I need is evidence from Scripture. And just because you "posted a bunch of verses" isn't meaningful unless they actually refute my view or claims.

btw, since it seems posting a bunch of verses means something to you, how come when I do that to prove my view, no one from the Arminian side seems to notice?

Maybe it only works one way?

 

[FreeGrace]

I see. So your teaching that it is man that justifies us.

Apparently you don't see.

So, let's take a look at what the Bible says about it.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.

I hope one sees perspective from both men and the Lord. That's what "eyes of the Lord and eyes of man" refers to.

But, if that isn't enough, let's look at:
Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

Would one agree that recieving human approval would amount to being "justified in the eyes of men"?

Or these verses:
Rom 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

Would one agree that doing what is right in the eyes of everyone amounts to being justified in their eyes?

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

Is it not clear that winning the respect of outsiders is a form of being "justified in their eyes"?

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

I think most peope would agree that having a good reputation with outsiders means to be "justified in their eyes".

It's all about perspective. And James 2 is about justification before others. Which is exactly what 2:18 is about: if a believer doesn't have works, their faith cannot be seen.

What would the result be for that? Claiming to be a Christian but not living like one will result in the charge of being a huge hypocrite.

In fact, 2:15,16 gives us a primse example of just such a hypocrite.

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:23-24

The whole point of James 2:14-26 is to demonstrate your faith by works.
2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

Our justification comes from God, when we obey Him.
JLB

I gave 5 verses that speak of how a believer is to live before outsiders, everyone. And each one is about others' perspective of us as believers.