Forum Poll

[GodsGrace]

Of course He is the Giver of eternal life. He SAID so. John 10:28

And those who believe in Him HAVE the gift. Because He SAID so. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47


Show me the verse, please.

It's tiring showing you verses you refuse to accept even though they're as clear as day. :
Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:20-22

How about exegeting 2 Peter? It would be interesting to understand what you believe it is saying.

If this statement was true, then Joh 10:28 would have said:
"I give them eternal life, and IF they don't abandon Me, they shall never perish."

But it doesn't say that.

To be blunt, neither Jesus nor the Apostles had in their mind the thought that ANYONE could ever understand that eternal life is possible WITHOUT Jesus, which is what would be the case if one stopped believing in Him -- he'd be expecting to have eternal life without the one who gives it. Eternal life is IN CHRIST, NOT outside of Christ. If you abandon Christ, you abandon eternal life because you've abandoned the spark that gives it.

This is a new fandangled idea that has recently come about.
Every verse you post proves that it's necessary TO HAVE Jesus to be saved. NOT to HAVE HAD Him at some point in life.
Would you be able to prove this in a clear verse?

Here are some that prove you must have Him PRESENTLY:
John 3:16
Romans 5:1 We have peace with God THROUGH Jesus: No Jesus, no peace.
2 Corinthians 5:17-20 We are a new person IN CHRIST, not outside of Christ.
17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Paul is begging us to be reconciled to God THROUGH CHRIST. If one falls away and IS NOT WITH CHRIST, there is no reconciliation with God.

There are NO CONDITIONS for never perishing after receiving eternal life.

This fact cannot be refuted. Those who try are only "kicking against the goads" and trying to refute what Jesus said.

We've gone through scripture.
Please post a verse showing that we can have eternal life WITHOUT Jesus.
Thank you.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I sincerely and profoundly apologize for the typos in my above post. I had to leave with my wifie in a hurry for filing taxes, and it seems I left the typos uncorrected

 

[stovebolts]

All,
Please read the Theology Forum Rules
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...d-before-posting-in-the-theology-forum.70372/

I am seeing many violations. I understand that you all are having a very passionate conversation, but if the violations continue, and you all can't start playing nice, warning points will be issued.

If I have to lock this thread and comb through it for every violation from this post forward, and any new OSAS threads, I will award points for every violation I see. 3 points, and your account will be suspended for 30 days. 6 points and youll get 90 days. 9 points and you will be banned from the site.

I understand your passion for this topic, but we have to keep with the fruits of the spirit which keep us united in Christ, even in our differences.

 

[chessman]

if that's the case why was teaching the landmark verse of new testament
John 14:6 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

First, What I explained in answer to your question, is the case.

Second in answering your additional question, Jesus said what He did in John 14:6 because it’s true. He then went on to prove it’s true via The Father’s acceptance of His perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Third, (and last request as to stay in line with the forum rules) You still haven’t answered my question (even though I’m answering yours):

Did Jesus tell His disciples that the rich man will or will not enter Heaven in the passage you brought up below (it’s a simple question):

And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you that a rich one will enter with-difficulty into the kingdom of the heavens.​

Matthew 19:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:23&version=DLNT

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I said:
"Of course He is the Giver of eternal life. He SAID so. John 10:28

And those who believe in Him HAVE the gift. Because He SAID so. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47


Show me the verse, please."

It's tiring showing you verses you refuse to accept even though they're as clear as day. :
Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:20-22

Edited by Stovebolts

I must assume Heb 6:4-6 and 2 Pet 2:20-22 are provided as a refutation of these 2 clear teachings from Scripture.

Edited by Stovebolts

How about exegeting 2 Peter? It would be interesting to understand what you believe it is saying.

How come none of the OSNAS crowd has done that for John 10:28, which is the clearest statement on eternal security in the Bible.

The phrase "worse off at the end" refers to one's life on earth. iow, because of the surety of God's discipline for rebellious children, their punishment WHILE ON EARTH will be painful enough (Heb 12:11) that they will be way "worse off" by the end of their lives.

What is clear from the passage is that there is NOTHING ABOUT LOSING SALVATION. What is clear is that one's life will be worse off for rebellious children of God.

This is a new fandangled idea that has recently come about.

So John 10:28 is a "new fandangled idea", huh?

Every verse you post proves that it's necessary TO HAVE Jesus to be saved.

Yep. And once one HAS Him, they can't shake Him.

NOT to HAVE HAD Him at some point in life.
Would you be able to prove this in a clear verse?

They have been given. Many verses teach salvation by faith and use the aorist tense, which I know hasn't been very impressive for some. But the aorist tense means a point in time (normally past time) action. Not continuing action. Actually, even the present tense doesn't mean results require the action to be continuing action, which the OSNAS crowd doesn't seem to get.

 

[chessman]

Edited by Stovebolts

For if— having escaped-from the defilements of the world by the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and again having been entangled by these things — they are defeated, then the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than having known, to turn-back from the holy commandment having been delivered to them. The thing of the true proverb has happened to them— “ The dog having returned to its own vomit”, and, “ The sow having washed herself returns to a wallowing of the mire”.​

2 Peter 2:20-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:20-22&version=DLNT

What is clear is that one's life will be worse off for rebellious children of God.

Where do you see that 2 Peter 2:20-22 says anything about “children of God”?

 

[FreeGrace]

For if— having escaped-from the defilements of the world by the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and again having been entangled by these things — they are defeated, then the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than having known, to turn-back from the holy commandment having been delivered to them. The thing of the true proverb has happened to them— “ The dog having returned to its own vomit”, and, “ The sow having washed herself returns to a wallowing of the mire”.​

2 Peter 2:20-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:20-22&version=DLNT

I said:
"What is clear is that one's life will be worse off for rebellious children of God."

Where do you see that 2 Peter 2:20-22 says anything about “children of God”?

The words "having escaped...by the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" refers to a believer, who then gets entangled again "by these things".

Believers are children of God.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

I don't see how someone who has escaped ...by the knowledge of our Lord could be referring to an unbeliever.

Unbelievers haven't escaped from the defilements of the world.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what I said:
"Of course He is the Giver of eternal life. He SAID so. John 10:28

And those who believe in Him HAVE the gift. Because He SAID so. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47


Show me the verse, please."

Edited by Stovebolts

I must assume Heb 6:4-6 and 2 Pet 2:20-22 are provided as a refutation of these 2 clear teachings from Scripture.

Edited by Stovebolts


How come none of the OSNAS crowd has done that for John 10:28, which is the clearest statement on eternal security in the Bible.

The phrase "worse off at the end" refers to one's life on earth. iow, because of the surety of God's discipline for rebellious children, their punishment WHILE ON EARTH will be painful enough (Heb 12:11) that they will be way "worse off" by the end of their lives.

What is clear from the passage is that there is NOTHING ABOUT LOSING SALVATION. What is clear is that one's life will be worse off for rebellious children of God.

So John 10:28 is a "new fandangled idea", huh?

Yep. And once one HAS Him, they can't shake Him.

They have been given. Many verses teach salvation by faith and use the aorist tense, which I know hasn't been very impressive for some. But the aorist tense means a point in time (normally past time) action. Not continuing action. Actually, even the present tense doesn't mean results require the action to be continuing action, which the OSNAS crowd doesn't seem to get.

You make the case for me. You stated up above:
And those who believe in Him HAVE the gift. Because He SAID so. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47

This is correct. Those who BELIEVE in Him HAVE the gift of eternal life.
Those who DO NOT believe in Him and live a life of lawlessness, do not have eternal life. Jesus said so Himself.
Mathew 7:23 To the lawless, He will say "Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness".

As for John 10:28, I've exegeted this verse for you. I'm afraid it's not properly understood by some. Jesus is speaking about His sheep and how His sheep hear His voice. He also says that His sheep FOLLOW Him.

To follow Jesus means to do as He says, to obey Him, to behave as He has taught us in the verses I've given you in Mathew, for example.
Mathew 5:3-10
Mathew 25:37-46

Verse 28 (John 10:28) says that He will give eternal life TO HIS SHEEP and they shall never perish.

Are Jesus' sheep those who DO NOT follow Him? Those who do not behave as He wishes? Those who live a life of sin and do not obey God?

Edit by Stovebolts

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I don't think so. Not in the least.


But this ignores ALL that Jesus said about believing and having eternal life.

1. Jesus taught that those who believe possess eternal life. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47
This obviously indicates that at the MOMENT WHEN one believes they possess eternal life.

2. Jesus also taught that those He gives eternal life (recipients, if you will), shall never perish. John 10:28
Please obvserve that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life for never perishing. Would you please at least acknowledge that?

Given these 2 points, how in the world can one continue to believe that salvation can be lost? From the MOMENT when one believes in Christ, Jesus has SAID that he/she shall never perish.

If there EVER was a verse where conditions for never perishing was REQUIRED, it is John 10:28. Yet, Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS.


No evidence at all that any of that crowd ever believed. In fact, from the context, it is clear what they have based their appeal for entering into the kingdom on: their works. Didn't work for them.


Except none of this even applies to v.28. Please don't try to drag v.27 into v.28. v.27 is a description of His sheep. That's all. v.28 stands as a fact all on its own.

What hasn't been done is to exegete v.28 to prove that Jesus wasn't teaching eternal security.

You have my permission to proceed.


Let's just focus on John 10:28


Let's just focus on what Jesus actually taught, as I pointed out in the 2 points above.

Jesus taught that those who believe possess eternal life. So receiving eternal life is based on BELIEVING, not "how one behaves", etc.

And it should be obvious to everyone that John 5:24 means that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes.

So the promise of never perishing in John 10:28 BEGINS at the MOMENT WHEN one believes. That completely refutes any notion that one's behavior has any effect on how one ends up in eternity.


Since I'm still waiting for an honest exegesis of John 10:28, there is nothing left to discuss.

Once Jn 10:28 is dealt with, then we can proceed. Above in your post on that verse, I read: "As for John 10:28, I've exegeted this verse for you. I'm afraid it's not properly understood by some. Jesus is speaking about His sheep and how His sheep hear His voice. He also says that His sheep FOLLOW Him."

There is NOTHING in v.28 about any of this. All of that came from v.27, which isn't even close to an exegesis of v.28.

So, until v.28 is exegeted, I bid you aduo.

P.S.
All your verses:
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47

are all PRESENT TENSE.
One must BELIEVE, present tense, to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

P.S.
All your verses:
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47

are all PRESENT TENSE.
One must BELIEVE, present tense, to be saved.

Yes, this is true. It's also true that WHEN believes, (which of course would be in the present WHEN they believe), they receive the gift of eternal life. Which, at that point, Jesus says those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe) they shall never perish.

What should be done with all the verses that use the aorist tense when describing how to be saved?

Further, the sealing with the Holy Spirit in Eph 1:13,14 uses the aorist tense for "having believed", which is obviously a past tense action.

And from this past tense action of believing, one is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING the believer's inheritance on the day of redemption of God's own possession.

What should be done with these verses?

Also, will there be an exegesis of John 10:28? Since I did meet the request to exegete 2 Pet 2:20-22.

I didn't get any feedback on my exegesis, btw.

 

[Christ_empowered]

complicated theology and the tense in which verses are written aside...Scripture plainly tells believers to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, to fight good fight, and to run the race in such a way as to win. This is --serious-- business. Elsewhere, we are told the teachers and ministers will be -judged- according to a higher standard, and that he who endures to the end shall be saved. Even for believers, Scripture explains that God's judgment shall be as a fire, burning up that which is made of wood and straw. In Revelations, it is written that if we turn lukewarm, Jesus we spit us out.

And...many are called, few are chosen. The sheep know His voice. How can one claim to be in the flock if one not only does not know His voice, but one chooses to reject His voice, given the opportunity? -Most- people are on the broad road that leads to destruction. Few are on the narow way that leads to life everlasting. Add in warnings of false prophets who will deceive the very elect, if possible; wolves in sheep's clothing; and, of course, the wheat and the tares...

how can one come to the conclusion that those who turn apostate are saved? I don't think it fits in with the overall message of Scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

complicated theology and the tense in which verses are written aside...Scripture plainly tells believers to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, to fight good fight, and to run the race in such a way as to win. This is --serious-- business. Elsewhere, we are told the teachers and ministers will be -judged- according to a higher standard, and that he who endures to the end shall be saved. Even for believers, Scripture explains that God's judgment shall be as a fire, burning up that which is made of wood and straw. In Revelations, it is written that if we turn lukewarm, Jesus we spit us out.

And...many are called, few are chosen. The sheep know His voice. How can one claim to be in the flock if one not only does not know His voice, but one chooses to reject His voice, given the opportunity? -Most- people are on the broad road that leads to destruction. Few are on the narow way that leads to life everlasting. Add in warnings of false prophets who will deceive the very elect, if possible; wolves in sheep's clothing; and, of course, the wheat and the tares...

how can one come to the conclusion that those who turn apostate are saved? I don't think it fits in with the overall message of Scripture.

Amen.

 

[FreeGrace]

complicated theology and the tense in which verses are written aside

We need to be aware of what the tenses mean.

...Scripture plainly tells believers to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, to fight good fight, and to run the race in such a way as to win.

And none of these commands say it's for salvation. Plenty of verses on salvation/eternal life being by faith apart from anything else.

This is --serious-- business.

I fully agree. It most certainly is.

Elsewhere, we are told the teachers and ministers will be -judged- according to a higher standard, and that he who endures to the end shall be saved.

The only verses on "enduring to the end" refer directly and specifically to the Tribulation period, which is 7 years. So had nothing to do with eternal salvation. It's about maintaining one's life during the Tribulation.

Even for believers, Scripture explains that God's judgment shall be as a fire, burning up that which is made of wood and straw. In Revelations, it is written that if we turn lukewarm, Jesus we spit us out.

These are all metaphors, or figures of speech. And we know that using figures of speech is not straightforward or plain language.

John 16 -
25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.
29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.

As can be seen, even His own disciples didn't understand His use of figures of speech.

how can one come to the conclusion that those who turn apostate are saved? I don't think it fits in with the overall message of Scripture.

Because of what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.

1. First, Jesus taught that those who believe possess (HAVE) eternal life. This clearly means that they possess eternal life WHEN they believe.
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47
2. Second, Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
John 10:28

So, putting this all together, we know that at the MOMENT one believes they receive eternal life. And from that alone, they shall never perish.

Therefore, any person who has received the gift of eternal life (which they received WHEN they believed), they shall never perish.

That's how one can come to the conclusion that what happens after believing in Christ has no effect on his saved state. That person shall never perish.

However, because of all the clear teaching in Scripture about God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11), no one will get away with anything.

Though they remain saved, their life on earth will not be pleasant at all, and they will lose reward in heaven.
1 Cor 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

There are 2 examples of sinful believers being turned over to Satan. One for a painful physical death and the other to be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Cor 5 and 1 Tim 1. Doesn't sound pleasant to me.

Those who think OSAS means that rebellious believers are "getting away" with anything are sadly mistaken. No one does.

 

[WIP]

Though they remain saved, their life on earth will not be pleasant at all, and they will lose reward in heaven.
1 Cor 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

There are 2 examples of sinful believers being turned over to Satan. One for a painful physical death and the other to be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Cor 5 and 1 Tim 1. Doesn't sound pleasant to me.

Those who think OSAS means that rebellious believers are "getting away" with anything are sadly mistaken. No one does.

Can you in all honesty believe that those who believe and then stop believing will always suffer while on earth? I believed when I was young but I don't recall having it all that bad for the 20 years during which I no longer believed. In fact, there are times when my life was a lot more pleasant than it is now. Jesus even said we will have trials and tribulations.

John 16:33 is one such verse (NKJV) "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Where you talk of heavenly rewards I see much is spoken of in the Bible but what I still haven't been able to reconcile is the rewards along with Revelation 21:3-4 (NKJV)

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

In order to realize the reward, one would have to know there are other levels. Would it not bring sorrow to know that one did not receive the greater reward?

 

[Jim Parker]

We have eternal life only by being united with Jesus as his body and his bride; by "putting on Christ".(Ro 13:140 )( Gal 3:27) We have eternal life by being "one flesh" with Christ. (Eph 5:30-32.)

You don't get eternal life unless you believe

 

[Count Duckula]

If your born again, then reject. Would you be unsaved or never saved. Then, if unsaved, could you be resaved.

 

[GodsGrace]

If your born again, then reject. Would you be unsaved or never saved. Then, if unsaved, could you be resaved.

Unsaved
Yes

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Unsaved
Yes

I call that yo yo Christianity.

 

[Jim Parker]

Then, if unsaved, could you be resaved.

Right.

BUT;....

"If anyone sins, submitting to the temptations of the devil, only repentance lies in store for him, but if he keeps falling in order to keep on repenting, let him not expect good fruits. His salvation is in jeopardy." (Hermas)

"God allows us to knock at the door of this second repentance once. Only once." (Tertullian, late 2nd early 3rd century)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Oh, Saint Hermas,my favorite saint.
Except there's no proof he was a real person.