easy believism

[Razeontherock]

It certainly can be dismissive. I don't think it's always meant to be that way. It's a term that was coined in response to the idea that being saved simply is a matter of saying a prayer, getting baptized, and then living as if nothing just happened. In other words, no life change. It's a response to antinomianism.

We are fully saved apart from any works. That's a slam dunk.
But, we're also saved unto good works. Also a slam dunk.
Not to be outdone, along comes works and says, "yeah, but works are evidence of salvation" - True and also a slam dunk.

Salvation process:
1 Get Saved.
2 Get Busy.
3 Exercise Gifts.
*All in humility and a servant's heart driven by love and fueled by the Holy Spirit.

A lot more can be said but being a Christian isn't a passive experience.

Excellent.

All except that part about antinomianism, that's one a them thar big wurdz I ain't lurnt yet. Somebody actually taught you could do that?!? Well I never

 

[Razeontherock]

I'm...I don't know. I have mixed thoughts on this. I've been to megachurches that probably fall into what many would consider "easy believeism," and..its not a good thing. It isn't just the questionable doctrine, its the congregants who are no different from the unbelievers in the community, its the churches that rake in all kinds of money but don't do very much for the community, on and on it goes. you shall know a tree by the fruit it bears...seems appropriate in this context. and yet...

at the -church- level, what are they to do? I'm reminded of Billy Graham and his crusades, all the souls he tried to win for The Lord. -nothing- against Rev.Graham, don't get me wrong here, but...seriously; for all the people who made a "decision for Christ" at Rev.Graham's prompting, how many of those ended up being transformed by Christ?

I just...don't know. At this point, I'm reminded of bits and pieces of some David Wilkerson material (I think written in the 70s) I read over a while ago. He wrote about a "remnent" of genuine believers, from -all- denominations, who would support each other, even as much of the organized church fell into sin and straight up apostasy. From what I remember of the material, a good bit of what he wrote about is now coming to pass, especially in the US and in other secularized, affluent nations. Kind of...disconcerting. I guess that was the point?

I guess I'm saying...at a -personal- level, I'm praying to get my eyes fixed on Christ, and Him Crucified. Ripping other Christians to shreds is not Christ-like, and its even worse when one starts tearing down entire groups. I think there are better, more civil, more Christ-like ways to have conversations about doctrine than by labeling "Those People" with "easy believeism."

Just so you know, at all those Billy Graham style crusades, when people came forward to receive Christ they were always ushered to a group to help them take the next step which is Discipleship. Nobody was ever just cut loose with the false assurance that all their problems were over, it was always understood as the first step in a fight for your soul

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

In Exodus, those that "believed God" brought their cattle in from the field and were saved. Those that didn't believe God did nothing, and their cattle perished.

Faith without works is dead.

Agreed.

 

[stovebolts]

I see what you're saying and yet, belief saves. Not work.
Some people who aren't really in Christ are those easy believers. They think , if I wear a cross and say I believe in Jesus I'm good to go. Then they are bad and go on sinning.

That's not belief that saves though. That's fun land worldly nonsense delusion that cripples and destroys.
However, belief is all that is required to come into Christ. Because Jesus did all the work for us on the cross. And our faith in that and our being in Christ occurs because it all started off with God the father giving his grace to the world as a free gift that would bear salvation to the world through the sacrifice of his son for all the sins of the world that would be taken upon him on the cross.
Being Jesus was God the father, in essence, literally, God who set the law of righteousness and the penalty for sin in the beginning, reworked that covenant law into a new covenant. Where the former penalty was paid in full by himself, as Jesus. He took back in other words what was the first law of sin and redemption. And he put in its place the covenant that said, all you have to do is believe you are a sinner. Believe you can renounce your sinful nature and ways, and believe in and on myself/my son, who you can cast all your past transgressions upon as that perpetual sacrificial lamb upon which those sins can be laid, and they will be washed clean by the blood that covers them for eternity never to be remembered again.
And now, washed clean you come into Christ as a new creation washed clean and always covered for your future transgressions by that blood, and the advocacy on your behalf should you slip up and sin because Jesus is our advocate with the Father. In other words, at least as I read it, God knows who are truly repentant and receptive to the new covenant and as such he knows when we do sin it isn't because we're that aforementioned fun land worldly in name only poser who thinks to play at what is often called, Pascal's wager.
That's why Jesus said, he knows his sheep by name and we know him and we follow him.
Wolves, the fun land type, in sheep's clothing don't fool God.

Having faith saves. And after we are indwelt with the holy spirit we're new creations. So we don't have those desires as that old self to be part of this world and sin. We are led to do righteous things. We endure this world through the leading of the holy spirit and in the end we are with the father.
We carry the protection and the wisdom to navigate the world within us. We are led to do good work because of the righteous leading that guides us toward that .
It isn't that work that saves us. Good works are a result of being indwelt and saved. Not a means of becoming indwelt and saved.

It doesn't get any simpler than John 3:16 and this, Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Over all, I dont see anything in here that I would make much of a stink about. I would like to understand your view of repentance with a biblical example. I'd also like your take on what faith means, and what it looks like along with a biblical example.

It is by grace through faith that you are saved.

I take this in part to mean we are not punished for our wrongs, because we believe and trust God enough to change the way we do things. We no longer lie, but now we tell the truth. Why? Because we believe it's a better way to live. Telling the truth isn't always easy, but do we have faith in the tough times to tell the truth? Or do we remain silent, which is as good as a lie?

We tell the truth, not because we are earning brownie points with God. But because we trust God.

These are the types of works he has prepared in advance for us to do. But it's a matter of the heart. Is the law written on your heart, or on a stone tablet? One does their work from a stone tablet and the other out of faith.

 

[Northman]

I never actually encountered the term until I started frequenting here. After a few years of reading and seeing it mentioned it sounds like what Edison said in post 21.

I think the lesson for this one lies near the end of the written Gospels. The thief. I would go out on a limb and say the thief was probably from that area somewheres seeing as how he was being executed in Jerusalem. Here you have a guy that was raised in a culture that knew about God. He probably learned much of God's expectations and statutes and decided to live by none of it at all. That's right. He probably knew, yet CHOSE to live in disobedience. After all his terrorizing days were done and at the very end of his life, all he did was recognize the Lord. That's it. We read nothing of him saying how sorry he was, nothing about him saying anything at all except how he understood that Jesus shouldn't be there. And what was said to him?

Does that or does that not fall into the category of "easy believism"?

By his life he was condemned, but by His life, he was spared. And he was spared without living righteously or doing good, he was spared without living anything like how Jesus said to live. The man did and practiced the opposite.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm all about sound doctrine and all, but...Christian-on-Christian fights can get very nasty, and it gives all of Christendom a bad imagine. Seriously. Plus...some of the "true believer" websites I've been to are so mean-spirited and vicious, its hard to believe that they--the critics, that is--are genuinely saved. 0 compassion, 0 tact, 0 Christ-like character evidenced in their exposes, scathing attacks, etc. Ugh.

 

[stovebolts]

I never actually encountered the term until I started frequenting here. After a few years of reading and seeing it mentioned it sounds like what Edison said in post 21.

I think the lesson for this one lies near the end of the written Gospels. The thief. I would go out on a limb and say the thief was probably from that area somewheres seeing as how he was being executed in Jerusalem. Here you have a guy that was raised in a culture that knew about God. He probably learned much of God's expectations and statutes and decided to live by none of it at all. That's right. He probably knew, yet CHOSE to live in disobedience. After all his terrorizing days were done and at the very end of his life, all he did was recognize the Lord. That's it. We read nothing of him saying how sorry he was, nothing about him saying anything at all except how he understood that Jesus shouldn't be there. And what was said to him?

Does that or does that not fall into the category of "easy believism"?

By his life he was condemned, but by His life, he was spared. And he was spared without living righteously or doing good, he was spared without living anything like how Jesus said to live. The man did and practiced the opposite.

I suppose so, but first, what could a man be put on a cross for and what constitutes a criminal?

If one is hungry, and nobody will give him food, is he a criminal for stealing to eat?

We do know that the man understood he deserved to be there and Jesus didn't. That speaks volumes to his heart.

We dont know the man's crime, but we do see his heart. His belief was made known by his actions. He rebuked the other thief, and he confessed his sin. That's not easy believism. Its faith in action.

 

[for_his_glory]

Kathryn Kulman had a simple saying when she preached, "only believe". Two little words as all of us had to begin by believing Jesus is the Son of God and from the first step of belief we asked Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. From that then we all begin to grow in knowledge of what our relationship to Him is all about and why we need Him. A mustard seed of faith produces the greatest love you will ever know.

 

[Edisons Wolf]

Over all, I dont see anything in here that I would make much of a stink about. I would like to understand your view of repentance with a biblical example. I'd also like your take on what faith means, and what it looks like along with a biblical example.

Would you agree that repentance and faith are synonymous? How can one repent if they don't believe. How can they believe in Salvation if they don't repent of the sins that would otherwise damn them?
I believe the process is called Monergism. Regenerated by the holy spirit alone. Not by any works I may seek to do to accomplish that. Which is Synergism.
As for verses, Acts 20:21, Acts 11 and particularly verse 18. 2nd Peter 3 and particularly verse 9 and 2nd Timothy 2 and particularly verse 25.

It is by grace through faith that you are saved.

Agreed.

I take this in part to mean we are not punished for our wrongs, because we believe and trust God enough to change the way we do things. We no longer lie, but now we tell the truth. Why? Because we believe it's a better way to live. Telling the truth isn't always easy, but do we have faith in the tough times to tell the truth? Or do we remain silent, which is as good as a lie?

Salvation isn't a license to sin. 1 John 5 is a great teaching concerning the status of the redeemed.
However, if we do falter we have an advocate with the Father in Heaven. Our sins are not counted against us so as to lead to death as they did before we were saved.
And as we know those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. 1 John 3:9

We tell the truth, not because we are earning brownie points with God. But because we trust God.

I tell the truth because I am now a temple housing the holy spirit that guides me toward all truth. It would be contrary to that leading if I were to act as that which is adverse to the holy.

These are the types of works he has prepared in advance for us to do. But it's a matter of the heart. Is the law written on your heart, or on a stone tablet? One does their work from a stone tablet and the other out of faith.

Moral character isn't works. We are serving God's plan as Christians but we are not working to stay saved.

 

[Edisons Wolf]

The idea is when people insult the Grace of God, so the phrase can be useful

How would that be accomplished ?Insulting the grace of God?

 

[WIP]

My thoughts are that easy believism is believing in God and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that The third member is The Holy Spirit - hey presto I'm saved! Now I can carry on as normal. I don't need to work on my sins now because I have confessed them and said I'm sorry. As long as I say I'm sorry when I sin I don't have to try not to sin . I don't need to get to know Jesus, I don't need to read the bible, because I have done everything He asked me to. God loves me I accepted Jesus as my saviour and that's all that's needed. I can get on with my life as usual now. That's what I am thinking easy believism is. But I don't really know what it is - who am I to say.

I think you are pretty close to it, if I understand the term correctly. The problem as I see is that too often, even when it isn't intended, many preach it to be this way or at least that is what is being heard by those who hear the message. In that way those teaching are failing their students. As a result, all or most of the NT Scriptures are ignored - all the warnings against living a life of sin, living in the world, working out our salvation, etc. The idea of doing works is talked down so much that it has become taboo. I've experienced this in my own Lutheran church of all places. But even Jesus, when He forgave the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1-11), didn't just forgive her sins. He also commanded her to "Go, and from now on sin no more." ESV

Why would He tell her that if it wasn't necessary?

 

[Tessa]

Those words Jesus said to the woman often come back to my mind. There are many many verses in the NT that warn us against deliberate sin, I don't understand how people can think otherwise. I don't want to sin, not because of salvation but because I just don't want to. But of course I know I still do. Isn't this what Paul meant by 'fighting the good fight'?

I agree with your post WIP

 

[Christ_empowered]

the verse WIP mentioned has been on my mind a good bit lately, now that The Lord has willed to make me healthy and such. Which brings me to another point...

Pentecostals talk a lot about miracles. Some Catholics, do too. It seems that mainline Protestants don't believe in miracles. Do you think....this dawned on me, recently...that maybe miracles just aren't happening in many churches, because of false doctrine?

 

[ezra]

of all the post i have ever started a man made phrase has gone 4 pages ..with a wide variety of subjects works /repentance/ faith --how are saved by grace through faith or water baptism .is it essential to be baptized to be saved and go to heaven.. works follows salvation .. Godly sorrow brings repentance--(turn from ) who is on first and who is on third? who is right who is wrong? was the thief on the cross saved under grace or law .. question questions questions honestly imo the term E.B is something man made up . to mock another doctrine and example maybe .the die hard gen baptist labeled osnas . might say to the southern baptist who is osas your doctrine is week a license to sin a E.B false doctrine... guess what they preach the same Jesus

 

[ezra]

the verse WIP mentioned has been on my mind a good bit lately, now that The Lord has willed to make me healthy and such. Which brings me to another point...

Pentecostals talk a lot about miracles. Some Catholics, do too. It seems that mainline Protestants don't believe in miracles. Do you think....this dawned on me, recently...that maybe miracles just aren't happening in many churches, because of false doctrine?

miracles happen every day and we dont even know it ..ever had a delay? it could have saved your life.. anyone living breathing that is saved is a miracle . see the problem is man thinks they can work up a miracle. nothing will happen in the Church out side the Holy Spirit working

 

[billybalke]

miracles happen every day and we dont even know it ..ever had a delay? it could have saved your life.. anyone living breathing that is saved is a miracle . see the problem is man thinks they can work up a miracle. nothing will happen in the Church out side the Holy Spirit working

Such miracles (if indeed miracles) show no kin to those recorded in the NT.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I was reading on a Catholic website...miracles can happen for non-Christians, too, but part of the purpose there is to lead those who receive the miracles to The Lord.

What if...in 21st century, modern cultures...a lot of churches have gone so astray that The Lord just isn't blessing as many of us with miracles as when the churches stuck closer to The Good News? A pagan might get a miracle, if a miracle helps lead him to Christ...that's what the Catholic website implied, anyway. But what if "church people" in many nations aren't getting miracles because we're "proclaiming a form of godliness, but lacking the power thereof," both at a personal and at a larger level?

just something I've been thinking on a bit lately, I'm not quite sure why.

 

[ezra]

Such miracles (if indeed miracles) show no kin to those recorded in the NT.

explain

 

[ezra]

I was reading on a Catholic website...miracles can happen for non-Christians, too, but part of the purpose there is to lead those who receive the miracles to The Lord.

What if...in 21st century, modern cultures...a lot of churches have gone so astray that The Lord just isn't blessing as many of us with miracles as when the churches stuck closer to The Good News? A pagan might get a miracle, if a miracle helps lead him to Christ...that's what the Catholic website implied, anyway. But what if "church people" in many nations aren't getting miracles because we're "proclaiming a form of godliness, but lacking the power thereof," both at a personal and at a larger level?

just something I've been thinking on a bit lately, I'm not quite sure why.

i buy very Little of any thing catholic

 

[JLB]

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth
the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:5

Romans 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work. "

No one is regenerated by works.

Never the less, as Paul goes on to say in Romans 11.

17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:17-23

• Because of unbelief they were broken off

We are grafted into the olive tree by grace, not by works, however if we fall into unbelief, we may become broken off and removed.



JLB