Should women teach in the church?

[electedbyhim]

the Bible warns us of those who would come and make a business ("make merchandize") out of the church. Seems to be acceptable today.

Indeed, the itching ears of people want to hear all about health and wealth in preaching.

 

[jerry63935]

we cant even get them in church period. there simply not interested . i opened up a post on why the church of Ephesus left there first love... no takes but start a post like this it goes wild...

 

[jerry63935]

Personally I think it would be optimum if the church would not permit men and women who teach self promoting doctrines (send me money and God will bless you) any more.

agreeed %199 its spreading like wildfire

 

[Edward]

I am going by what the Bible teaches. It is straight forward.

But if you start at Genesis and read towards Revelation you will see that God changes the way He deals with man sometimes. Sort of changes up the rules a bit.

When Moses brought the Law, things changed.
After the flood and Noah saw the rainbow, things changed.
From Noah to Christ things changed a bunch.

So it's the dispensations of time that have changed things. First was the dispensation of innocence, then the fall, then Noah & the flood, and when Christ came and died on the cross we entered dispensation of grace. Now I suspect that we're entering the dispensation of Love.

Even when the unclean animals were declared clean fit to eat...shall we continue to hold to the scripture that says do not eat unclean animals now? No! We understand that times have changed for us and we must remember that we are in the last days and so it's very probable that God does not hold strict to women not teaching. God has poured out His Spirit upon all people and women are not exempt from having the Holy Spirit.

Hey, if the woman is full of the Holy Spirit and starts talking...we should prolly listen. I have no problem with women teachers or pastors.

 

[jerry63935]

I have no problem with women teachers or pastors.

personally i do feel it is the man position for pastor. yes i have heard some women on the radio do a good job teaching. but im not going on a crusade to remove them. much like the Salem witch hunt. if their work is not of GOD when tried by fire. it will burn up

 

[Edward]

personally i do feel it is the man position for pastor. yes i have heard some women on the radio do a good job teaching. but im not going on a crusade to remove them. much like the Salem witch hunt. if their work is not of GOD when tried by fire. it will burn up

I thought about that as soon as I clicked post, lol. I think you're right too. But teachers are not the same as pastors so I think they can make good teachers.

 

[jerry63935]

But teachers are not the same as pastors so I think they can make good teachers.

agreed

 

[electedbyhim]

But if you start at Genesis and read towards Revelation you will see that God changes the way He deals with man sometimes. Sort of changes up the rules a bit.

When Moses brought the Law, things changed.
After the flood and Noah saw the rainbow, things changed.
From Noah to Christ things changed a bunch.

So it's the dispensations of time that have changed things. First was the dispensation of innocence, then the fall, then Noah & the flood, and when Christ came and died on the cross we entered dispensation of grace. Now I suspect that we're entering the dispensation of Love.

Even when the unclean animals were declared clean fit to eat...shall we continue to hold to the scripture that says do not eat unclean animals now? No! We understand that times have changed for us and we must remember that we are in the last days and so it's very probable that God does not hold strict to women not teaching. God has poured out His Spirit upon all people and women are not exempt from having the Holy Spirit.

Hey, if the woman is full of the Holy Spirit and starts talking...we should prolly listen. I have no problem with women teachers or pastors.

I understand what your saying about dispensations.

I just do not think it is wise to bypass His direct calling and qualifications of Pastor/teacher.

I have listed to many homosexual try to justify and twist the background history of the Bible including verses that homosexuality is not sin and that God permits it.

My point is that anyone can form a doctrine to fit their own agenda. We see this on a daily withing Christianity.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I recall once a woman leader of an eastern nation was asked why her country allows a woman to lead. She says they couldn’t afford to be picky. Their country didn’t have that many well educated people altogether.

 

[jaybo]

It is OK for them to teach...other women.
It is written..."The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." (Titus 2:3-5)

Don't you think that this should also be included? "Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive." Titus 2:910

In case you're not aware, we are not living in the 1st Century CE. The roles of everyone -- women, slaves, et al -- have changed since that time. Women are not uneducated semi-slaves, the property of their husbands. They are now equal to men in every area and there is no reason that they cannot teach in church or perform any other role in the body of Christ.

If you use excerpts from the Bible to create a new form of the law that people must obey you are missing the grace of God, given to His people.

 

[Free]

Free,

I'm tired of seeing 1 Tim 2:12 used to oppose women in teaching ministry - without any careful exegesis of that text. That's what you have done.

There are problems with the women-must-be-closed-down in ministry in the church. Some of these problems are:

1. There is continuing disagreement among New Testament scholars as to exactly what Paul prohibits in this passage. Does he forbid women from teaching men only, or is it a comprehensive prohibition against female teaching of any kind? The problem is compounded by Paul’s failure to use the common word for “authority” (exousia) in verse 12. However, whichever interpretation one favours, the end result is that some kind of restriction is placed on the teaching ministry of women in the church.

2. A limitation on female ministry seems to contradict the principle of “mutuality in equality” established elsewhere in the Pauline epistles (e.g.. 1 Cor. 11:5, 14:26, Gal. 3:28, Eph. 5:21).

The context of 1 Cor. 11:5 supports the headship of a husband over his wife. That suggests that he is the spiritual authority in his house. It rather supports what I have said about 1 Tim 2:12. 1 Cor 14:26 is about exercising one's spiritual gift, but nothing is said about women being in a position of spiritual authority over men or teaching men in the context of the assembled church. As does Eph 5:21. I really don't know why you would use those to support your argument, as they support what I have said.

You shouldn't chide me for supposedly not using careful exegesis of 1 Tim 2:12, when you are doing that with Gal 3:28. What is Paul speaking of? He is talking about the equality of persons who are in Christ, that they are all "heirs according to promise." In that sense, all ethnic, cultural, and gender distinctions breakdown; all are equal. However, Paul still speaks specifically to Jews, to Gentiles, to slaves, to their masters, to men, and to women. With the latter two, he makes clear distinctions in their roles or functions, within the home and the church, but that in no way whatsoever means they are not equal as persons in Christ.

3. If women are excluded from a significant ministry of every church, this will have ramifications at a deep level in the local church. Should not this restriction have been included in the Pauline passages dealing with the churches’ teaching ministry (e.g.. Rom. 12, 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4)? Except for this one sentence in 1 Tim. 2:12, the gifts of the Spirit to the church have never been differentiated on the basis of sex in the entire New Testament.

It's the basis of authority, as you have so graciously helped to show by providing two other passages which support men being the spiritual leaders. You, too, seem to think, incorrectly, that men being in spiritual authority means that women aren't equal.

However, that is like saying the difference in function of the Son and the Father means that the Son is not equal to the Father. But difference in function does not indicate an inferiority of nature. Men and women are equal but it seems that God has ordained men to be those in spiritual authority.

4. Some of Paul’s writings make the teaching ministry available to all believers, including women. In Colossians 3:16, “teaching and admonishing” is the responsibility of “one another,” which must obviously include male and female. If “teaching and admonishing” are restricted to males only, consistency of interpretation requires that compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, bearing with, forgiveness and love (Col. 3:12-14) must be practised by males only. Such a conclusion regarding Christian character is untenable. See also 1 Cor. 14:26 where “each one” (male and female) in the church is encouraged to minister via a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue and interpretation when the church gathers. If women are restricted from teaching, consistency of interpretation requires their silence with psalms, revelations, tongues and interpretations.

Paul affirmed the teaching ministry of women (Acts 18:26, Titus 2:3) and commended women in ministry (Rom. 16:1-15; 1 Cor. 11:5, 16:16; Phil. 4:2ff.).

In Col 3:16, you are begging the question as to what "teaching" in that verse refers to, since he elsewhere clearly states that older women should teach the younger women in certain areas (Titus 2:3-5). Your reference to 1 Cor 14:26 ignores the context of verses 33-35. Acts 18:26 and Titus 2:3 ignore the points I have been making, the points which 1 Tim 2:12 makes.

As for the women Paul commended in ministry, do any of them specifically mention that they were elders/overseers or were involved in teaching or exercising authority over men in the assembled church? There are numerous ways that women can do ministry in the church, just as there are ways for lay men to do so as well. Again, this speaks to the equality of men and women in the church.

5. According to the remainder of Scripture, salvation is obtained by grace through faith. First Tim. 2:15 links salvation to having babies: “. . . Yet she will be saved through child-bearing . . .” How is this possible?

That's not an argument against women being in authority over men and teaching them in a corporate worship setting. That is clearly a very difficult verse to understand, whereas the verse in question is not.

The above difficulties concerning the interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:9-15 should be a warning not to proof-text a verse in isolation from the biblical context. A satisfactory explanation of the passage demands more than a superficial reading.

Just because I posted only one verse does not mean I read it superficially or have taken it in isolation. You seem to be pulling from many passages that are speaking generally but not addressing the specific context of 1 Tim 2:12--women teaching and exercising authority over men within the assembled church--and you have left some context that goes against your position.

First, we have clear verses regarding elders/overseers, that they are to "be the husband of one wife" (1 Tim 3:2; Titus 1:6). Second, we have several passages showing the headship of a man over his wife (Gen 3:6; 1 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:22-24; Col 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Pet 3:1, 5-6). Third, it would be exceedingly odd to argue for male headship in the home, but then ignore it in regards to the assembled church. This is noted in 1 Cor 14:34, where Paul says that "women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission." While there is some disagreement as to what Paul means, we know he permits women to pray and prophesy (1 Cor 11:5), and likely to speak to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, but here he says there is to be submission. Fourth, we also notice that no apostles were women.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If a woman should stand up and preach a powerful deeply Holy Spirit filled message, it would be a pity if the church insists she sit down and a "feel good because God just wants you to be happy" man should instead preach.

 

[Free]

You are judging an entire principle of doctrine on one sentence that Paul wrote to Timothy. You do understand the principle of eisegesis, don't you?

Of course I do. So, no, I haven't based it on only one sentence. But, even if I had, it is better than bringing in modern culture to

I also want to remind you again that we are not living in the same social conditions that were present in the first century CE. Women became wives as teenagers, were almost entirely illiterate, and were the property of their husbands. Women today are highly educated, at the top of every field, and more than capable of serving at every level in the church. Times have changed!!!

This has nothing to do with what the Bible states. Notice that in 1 Tim 2:12, Paul does make his appeal to culture, but firstly to Adam being created first, and secondly, to Eve being the one who was deceived.

Why are you reinventing the law? It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.

I think you need to learn the difference between Law and commands in the NT for believers. Yes, Christ did set us free, but not so that we can use Scripture to support our cultural beliefs.

 

[Edward]

I understand what your saying about dispensations.

I just do not think it is wise to bypass His direct calling and qualifications of Pastor/teacher.

I have listed to many homosexual try to justify and twist the background history of the Bible including verses that homosexuality is not sin and that God permits it.

My point is that anyone can form a doctrine to fit their own agenda. We see this on a daily withing Christianity.

So we should stand on your scripture that says no women?

Was man made for the Sabbath or was the Sabbath made for man? The character of the Lord has demonstrated that He is not strict about certain things. More along the lines of longsuffering and merciful. He even forgave me, Lol!

Last days Brother. The urgency is, more souls, more souls. Bigger harvest. It is upon us so there is no problem with women teaching. There might be some extra people saved which would be worth it to the Lord. Nevertheless, it still depends on the woman's message too.

 

[Edward]

Don't you think that this should also be included? "Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive." Titus 2:910

In case you're not aware, we are not living in the 1st Century CE. The roles of everyone -- women, slaves, et al -- have changed since that time. Women are not uneducated semi-slaves, the property of their husbands. They are now equal to men in every area and there is no reason that they cannot teach in church or perform any other role in the body of Christ.

If you use excerpts from the Bible to create a new form of the law that people must obey you are missing the grace of God, given to His people.

Yeah! Beside, who would make the sandwiches?!

 

[Edward]

If a woman should stand up and preach a powerful deeply Holy Spirit filled message, it would be a pity if the church insists she sit down and a "feel good because God just wants you to be happy" man should instead preach.

But if the deep and powerful message from the Holy Spirit is needed to be heard by the people...who could stop God from getting her onto the stage?!

It's just that being a Pastor is an office and God dictated that the Pastor should be a man. And who knows? Maybe the women were dull & uppity back then and so were not fit to teach yet? Today's women are qute a bit smarter I'd say, Lol. So let them teach.

Joyce Meyer used to be a regular on my truck radio. I don't care how rich she is or whatever blah blah blah, but the woman has spoken a lot of truth, which helped me at that time. Joyce is not correct about absolutely everything but is more good than bad. Besides, no one knows it all.

And...there be a cople girl pastor/teacher types whatever that I wont listen to, cuz I did once already, lol. But no names, this aint about that.

 

[electedbyhim]

So we should stand on your scripture that says no women?

Was man made for the Sabbath or was the Sabbath made for man? The character of the Lord has demonstrated that He is not strict about certain things. More along the lines of longsuffering and merciful. He even forgave me, Lol!

Last days Brother. The urgency is, more souls, more souls. Bigger harvest. It is upon us so there is no problem with women teaching. There might be some extra people saved which would be worth it to the Lord. Nevertheless, it still depends on the woman's message too.

So we should stand on your scripture that says no women?

It is Gods written word, I am just defending what he has put forth in the Scriptures. So, yes. we should stand firm on every word of God.

Last days Brother. The urgency is, more souls, more souls. Bigger harvest. It is upon us so there is no problem with women teaching. There might be some extra people saved which would be worth it to the Lord. Nevertheless, it still depends on the woman's message too.

I do not agree with this statement. Indeed, it is the last days. We are to simply present the gospel, they either accept or do not. I do not believe it is upon us to increase the harvest with woman teachers. That is not not to say woman cannot share the gospel of Jesus Christ and teach to other woman and children.

In the end, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

 

[Edward]

It is Gods written word, I am just defending what he has put forth in the Scriptures. So, yes. we should stand firm on every word of God.

But what do we do with Acts 10:15 ?? It says we can eat unclean animals. Should we fall back to when eating unclean animals and stand on that scripture? Stop eating bacon now?!

Or do we go ahead and stand on Acts 10:15 too?

Talking about bacon is making me hungry, lol. That lady can't take the pulpit right now...who'll rustle up the BLT's?!

 

[Cooper]

The context of 1 Cor. 11:5 supports the headship of a husband over his wife. That suggests that he is the spiritual authority in his house. It rather supports what I have said about 1 Tim 2:12. 1 Cor 14:26 is about exercising one's spiritual gift, but nothing is said about women being in a position of spiritual authority over men or teaching men in the context of the assembled church. As does Eph 5:21. I really don't know why you would use those to support your argument, as they support what I have said.

You shouldn't chide me for supposedly not using careful exegesis of 1 Tim 2:12, when you are doing that with Gal 3:28. What is Paul speaking of? He is talking about the equality of persons who are in Christ, that they are all "heirs according to promise." In that sense, all ethnic, cultural, and gender distinctions breakdown; all are equal. However, Paul still speaks specifically to Jews, to Gentiles, to slaves, to their masters, to men, and to women. With the latter two, he makes clear distinctions in their roles or functions, within the home and the church, but that in no way whatsoever means they are not equal as persons in Christ.


It's the basis of authority, as you have so graciously helped to show by providing two other passages which support men being the spiritual leaders. You, too, seem to think, incorrectly, that men being in spiritual authority means that women aren't equal.

However, that is like saying the difference in function of the Son and the Father means that the Son is not equal to the Father. But difference in function does not indicate an inferiority of nature. Men and women are equal but it seems that God has ordained men to be those in spiritual authority.


In Col 3:16, you are begging the question as to what "teaching" in that verse refers to, since he elsewhere clearly states that older women should teach the younger women in certain areas (Titus 2:3-5). Your reference to 1 Cor 14:26 ignores the context of verses 33-35. Acts 18:26 and Titus 2:3 ignore the points I have been making, the points which 1 Tim 2:12 makes.

As for the women Paul commended in ministry, do any of them specifically mention that they were elders/overseers or were involved in teaching or exercising authority over men in the assembled church? There are numerous ways that women can do ministry in the church, just as there are ways for lay men to do so as well. Again, this speaks to the equality of men and women in the church.


That's not an argument against women being in authority over men and teaching them in a corporate worship setting. That is clearly a very difficult verse to understand, whereas the verse in question is not.


Just because I posted only one verse does not mean I read it superficially or have taken it in isolation. You seem to be pulling from many passages that are speaking generally but not addressing the specific context of 1 Tim 2:12--women teaching and exercising authority over men within the assembled church--and you have left some context that goes against your position.

First, we have clear verses regarding elders/overseers, that they are to "be the husband of one wife" (1 Tim 3:2; Titus 1:6). Second, we have several passages showing the headship of a man over his wife (Gen 3:6; 1 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:22-24; Col 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Pet 3:1, 5-6). Third, it would be exceedingly odd to argue for male headship in the home, but then ignore it in regards to the assembled church. This is noted in 1 Cor 14:34, where Paul says that "women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission." While there is some disagreement as to what Paul means, we know he permits women to pray and prophesy (1 Cor 11:5), and likely to speak to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, but here he says there is to be submission. Fourth, we also notice that no apostles were women.

The boys were taught scripture, Paul for example, sat at the feet of Gamaliel, while the girls did housework. The men could read and write, think of the apostles, but the girls were never taught.
.

 

[Cooper]

But what do we do with Acts 10:15 ?? It says we can eat unclean animals. Should we fall back to when eating unclean animals and stand on that scripture? Stop eating bacon now?!

Or do we go ahead and stand on Acts 10:15 too?

Talking about bacon is making me hungry, lol. That lady can't take the pulpit right now...who'll rustle up the BLT's?!

Pigs were the dustbins of the day. They were full of maggots from the human excrement they ate while hoovering up.

They have been retired from that job, and now we can eat the meat.
.