Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[GodsGrace]

Wait. What I am asking you to describe is the Heart of the Gospel. Everyone should know it, so I know that you do.

Come on . . . you were really serious before, so keep that same energy. Explain, not describe, but explain the process for being Reborn.

Sounds like you're trying to be God.
Only God knows the process to being reborn.
We only know what the Jews were taught and what was carried on after them.

God is bigger than you.
Maybe YOU can describe the process as you understand it...?

 

[GodsGrace]

We are told that David was being taught by the Spirit while in his mother's womb. He also wrote and sang about his Salvation quite a bit. How could David sing about his Salvation if he wasn't Justified?

These things said, I am fully aware of the New Testament regarding Justification.

Romans 5:9 KJV - "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Have a great Sunday! (Assuming it is Sunday in your part of the world.)

Psalms is poetry.

It's a manner of saying.

Are you stating that David was born saved because he was being taught by the Holy Spirit while still in the womb?
And then went ahead and lived as he did?

 

[jerry63935]

Are you stating that David was born saved because he was being taught by the Holy Spirit while still in the womb?

i would hope not David had to come to Christ he had to look forward to the finished works of the Cross .


where does this born saved even come from?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I have taken the time to share my studies with you (below) regarding Salvation in the Old Testament, particularly relating to king David. I could have posted more from Psalm 119, but enough is enough. Do yourself a tremendous favor and read each of these passages, for they are compelling, to say the least. And, I might add, perhaps if "you" read all of these passages, you might grant me a little understanding over why I have written what I have written. I have extremely good reasons for believing what I believe.

Ask yourself if David's Spiritual Father is God the Father, or Satan, the one who holds people captive to do his will. (2 Tim 2:26). Ask yourself if the saints from Hebrews 11, the Great Hall of Faith, were Righteous. Ask yourself if David is held captive by Satan while under the Curse of the Lord . . . the answers will become obvious before you finish reading these Glorious passages below.

King David and his Salvation:

Day 105 - Psalm 27:1 NLT - "A psalm of David. The LORD is my light and my salvation--so why should I be afraid? The LORD is my fortress, protecting me from danger, so why should I tremble?"

Day 108 - Psalm 17:15 NLT - "Because I am righteous, I will see you. When I awake, I will see you face to face and be satisfied."

Day 128 - Psalm 25:5 NKJV - "Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; On You I wait all the day."

Day 136 - Psalm 28:5, 7-8 NKJV - 5 "Because they do not regard the works of the LORD, Nor the operation of His hands, He shall destroy them And not build them up." ... 7 "The LORD is my strength and my shield; My heart trusted in Him, and I am helped; Therefore my heart greatly rejoices, And with my song I will praise Him. 8 The LORD is their strength, And He [is] the saving refuge of His anointed.

Day 138 - Psalm 40:9-10 NKJV - "I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness In the great assembly; Indeed, I do not restrain my lips, O LORD, You Yourself know. 10 I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart; I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation; I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth From the great assembly."

Day 138 - Psalm 62:2 NLT - "He alone is my rock and my salvation, my fortress where I will never be shaken."

Day 142 - Psalm 98:1-2 NKJV - "A Psalm. Oh, sing to the LORD a new song! For He has done marvelous things; His right hand and His holy arm have gained Him the victory. 2 The LORD has made known His salvation; His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations."

Day 144 - Psalm 108:6 NKJV - "That Your beloved may be delivered, Save with Your right hand, and hear me."

Day 146 - Psalm 138:7 NIV - "Though I walk in the midst of trouble, you preserve my life. You stretch out your hand against the anger of my foes; with your right hand you save me."

Day 146 - Psalm 139:10 - Tanakh: - ". . . "Even there Your hand will be guiding me, Your right hand will be holding me fast."

Day 146 - Psalm 139:14-16 NLT - "Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous--how well I know it. You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb. 16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed."

Day 148 - Psalm 116:13 NKJV - "I will take up the cup of salvation, And call upon the name of the LORD."

Day 148 - Psalm 116:16 NKJV - "O LORD, truly I am Your servant; I am Your servant, the son of Your maidservant; You have loosed my bonds."

Day 148 - Psalm 118:6 NKJV - "The LORD is on my side; I will not fear. What can man do to me?"

Day 148 - Psalm 118:14-20 NKJV - "The LORD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation Is in the tents of the righteous; The right hand of the LORD does valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted; The right hand of the LORD does valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, And declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD has chastened me severely, But He has not given me over to death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness; I will go through them, And I will praise the LORD. 20 This is the gate of the LORD, Through which the righteous shall enter."

Day 149 - Psalm 37:37-40 NKJV - "Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright; For the future of that man is peace. 38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off. 39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD; He is their strength in the time of trouble. 40 And the LORD shall help them and deliver them; He shall deliver them from the wicked, And save them, Because they trust in Him."

Psalm 17:15 NLT - "Because I am righteous, I will see you. When I awake, I will see you face to face and be satisfied."

 

[jerry63935]

I have extremely good reasons for believing what I believe.

nothing wrong with that provided it lines up with what scripture has to say. not what we want it to say.

personally i have yet to fully understand what you believe . break it down to a nut shell. not some fantasy island theology

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

nothing wrong with that provided it lines up with what scripture has to say. not what we want it to say.

personally i have yet to fully understand what you believe . break it down to a nut shell. not some fantasy island theology

I believe that Jesus can separate a soul/spirit from the Adamic Curse anytime He desires. That's what Exodus 33:19 embodies.

 

[jerry63935]

I believe that Jesus can separate a soul/spirit from the Adamic Curse anytime He desires. That's what Exodus 33:19 embodies.

explain on farther

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

explain on farther

Okie doke. Now I unoad. lol

In my estimation, the context of the Bible is such: God has established the physical world with an Eternal Plan that He is currently and always will be fulfilling. Why? We are a demonstration of His Almighty Power to the unseen Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms. We, the creation, are on display to even these unseen Rulers and Authorities.

The Eternal Plan begins in the Garden where the actions of first "man" led to the Curse of the Lord. Specifically, the Sinful Nature, this new and added Nature to the minds and bodies of Adam and Eve were utterly devastating. Instantly, they knew of fear, shame, and guilt. What they were experiencing was more than they could bear, an added Nature that had robbed them of their former life without any sense of corruption whatsoever. They were perfectly and emotionally free.

And so we have the problem that needs to be addressed. Nothing else matters for each person. Each person must obtain the Circumcision of Christ if they are to receive Eternal Life. So, the Curse of the Lord is the problem and the Circumcision of the Siniful Nature, by our Holy Christ, is the answer.

So far, we have covered the Purpose of Christ as well as a portion of the Work of Christ . . . Spiritual Circumcision of the Heart. What is left? The Holy Effect of Christ. The Purpose of the Right Hand of Salvation, which is Christ, is to set His Elect free from the Curse, which also Enables a person to be set free from any worldly law, including the Law of Moses that might condemn. Through the Circumcision of Christ, a person will have a more refined view of how the physical world interfaces with the Spiritual World.

And so the Effect of Christ is a now changing life. Yes, what is changing is [not] the body, but the mind. We are being Transformed by the way with think. Our thinking changes. We Love in a new way. We begin to Truly think of others and their well-being. True Confidence is experienced for the first time, proven by how "you" now spend your time thinking of others instead of "self" in one way or another. We get it . . . life isn't about us.

More and more we will change, reflecting the Glory of God more and more. And why? Because New Born are given the Divine Nature, and we know that the Divine Nature isn't going to share its home (us) with the Devil. That just isn't a possibility.

What I am saying is that God allows Himself to grant His Mercy and Grace to anyone He so chooses, per the example that we find in Exodus 33:19.

That passage is a Biblically dominant passage. It leaves no room for timing, as in, the age of a person. God can grant His Grace (and the ultimate Grace comes from the Purpose and Work and Effect of Christ) to anyone, absolutely anyone He so desires. In other words, we to leave this passage alone. We should be standing at utmost attention when we read this Keystone passage.

Exodus 33:19 NKJV - "Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

There is no more important message that one could possibly desire to know and speak about than these things. This is the utter Heart of the Gospel and Bible. Without the separation of the Curse from the "heart" of a "man," the Bible would fall apart. None of it would matter.

And so this is why I spend my time doing my utmost best at Truly understanding the Mysterious Plan of God, which is the Story of God, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's what I care about . . . the Gospel, and not just being able to describe it (The Gospel is the Guuuud Neuuuws!" . . . but being able to explain it as it should be taught from early Genesis.

Genesis 3:22-24 NLT - "Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!" 23 So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

Jesus is that Tree of Life. And you know it in your heart that Adam and Eve wanted to eat from the Tree so that the Curse would be lifted . . . so that they would not physically die and be Spiritually dead. God expected us to realize that we would need to wait thousands of years before the general public might be administered by the Holy Spirit . . . to receive the Circumcision of Christ in abundance. Yes, like the Day of Pentecost, but this Holy Baptism began being gifted to people where ever they may have been at the time. The Lord can exempt a person from the Curse at any point in time. Incredibly, just two days ago, two well-known people of my community told me that when their alcoholic brother died, his pale face turned pink and he looked up with incredible excitement, eye's open so wide . . . and reaching with his arms . . . and then his heart stopped and he died.

I personally believe that this is when most people are actually saved. So many of us are allowed to live our lives as best as we can while under the captivity of the Devil, only to be Truly and Powerfully Indwelt by the Holy Spirit only breaths away from death. Is that not incredible?

God can grant His Grace and Mercy to anyone He so chooses. Not my Words, but His. And this is the core of the True Gospel of Jesus Christ. I deeply urge that we all come to know this story through the framework that I have offered above. But we must understand that the [entire] Bible wraps around that framework, and when a person grasps how Scripture relates to itself . . . both forward and backward . . . that's when their understanding of the Bible being Miraculous takes a massive leap.

Best . . .

 

[jerry63935]

God can grant His Grace and Mercy to anyone He so chooses. Not my Words

at that he can the who so ever shall any time any place not wiling nay perish but all come to repentance he came to seek and save that which is lost freely given freely received free will

 

[n2thelight]

Justified means made right with God.
You say Paul was justified before he was born.
So, he was justified, made right with God, all the time he was murdering Christians?

I'd answer your question 2a but I don't really know what you're asking.
The heaven age: Do you mean before man was created?
The earth age: No idea...

Yes , that's exactly what I'm saying, he was persecuting Christians but yet God put a stop to that, why is God wrong? No , of course He's not , but then you ask yourself , why did God stop him (Paul) from doing wrong , like literally interfering in his life
As for 2a ,where do you think you were before being born of woman , do you think you were created at inception ? Like what was happening before satan then known as lucifer sinned , do you think that took 7 days ?

 

[n2thelight]

pardon me but what Bible did you get this from? your way off course left field theology way left

Hoping the same one you reading

 

[n2thelight]

We'll just have to wait to see the answer by n2thelight .

All good , let's go to the scripture

Gonna give you all scripture on this , so it may be a tad long anything you wanna discuss further within these verses is welcomed . Let's start at the beginning

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. genesis1 Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters. In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul." was 1961 hayah hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon, altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, use. void 922 bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: KJV - emptiness, void. The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961] Now let's zoom to Job Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?" This is God telling Job when He created this earth , are you a morning star and a son of God ? Can you not see where we were when this happened ? So now let's go to the topic Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." When did He know Jeremiah , and please don't tell me it's because He knows everything , as He just showed you in Job all were created at the same time . So what happened ? for that ,let's go to Revelations Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." Job told you who the stars were , the above is the reason we are born of woman , because 1/3 of Gods children followed satan Think I made that simple enough , but as I said , we can go deeper

 

[n2thelight]

if you believe a person is justified in the womb. you best read the Bible closer when we get saved born again at that moment we are justified not a head of time . in a nut shell your wrong

The elect were justified ahead of time , you say born again , do you know what that means ?

 

[n2thelight]

Okie doke. Now I unoad. lol

In my estimation, the context of the Bible is such: God has established the physical world with an Eternal Plan that He is currently and always will be fulfilling. Why? We are a demonstration of His Almighty Power to the unseen Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms. We, the creation, are on display to even these unseen Rulers and Authorities.

The Eternal Plan begins in the Garden where the actions of first "man" led to the Curse of the Lord. Specifically, the Sinful Nature, this new and added Nature to the minds and bodies of Adam and Eve were utterly devastating. Instantly, they knew of fear, shame, and guilt. What they were experiencing was more than they could bear, an added Nature that had robbed them of their former life without any sense of corruption whatsoever. They were perfectly and emotionally free.

And so we have the problem that needs to be addressed. Nothing else matters for each person. Each person must obtain the Circumcision of Christ if they are to receive Eternal Life. So, the Curse of the Lord is the problem and the Circumcision of the Siniful Nature, by our Holy Christ, is the answer.

So far, we have covered the Purpose of Christ as well as a portion of the Work of Christ . . . Spiritual Circumcision of the Heart. What is left? The Holy Effect of Christ. The Purpose of the Right Hand of Salvation, which is Christ, is to set His Elect free from the Curse, which also Enables a person to be set free from any worldly law, including the Law of Moses that might condemn. Through the Circumcision of Christ, a person will have a more refined view of how the physical world interfaces with the Spiritual World.

And so the Effect of Christ is a now changing life. Yes, what is changing is [not] the body, but the mind. We are being Transformed by the way with think. Our thinking changes. We Love in a new way. We begin to Truly think of others and their well-being. True Confidence is experienced for the first time, proven by how "you" now spend your time thinking of others instead of "self" in one way or another. We get it . . . life isn't about us.

More and more we will change, reflecting the Glory of God more and more. And why? Because New Born are given the Divine Nature, and we know that the Divine Nature isn't going to share its home (us) with the Devil. That just isn't a possibility.

What I am saying is that God allows Himself to grant His Mercy and Grace to anyone He so chooses, per the example that we find in Exodus 33:19.

That passage is a Biblically dominant passage. It leaves no room for timing, as in, the age of a person. God can grant His Grace (and the ultimate Grace comes from the Purpose and Work and Effect of Christ) to anyone, absolutely anyone He so desires. In other words, we to leave this passage alone. We should be standing at utmost attention when we read this Keystone passage.

Exodus 33:19 NKJV - "Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

There is no more important message that one could possibly desire to know and speak about than these things. This is the utter Heart of the Gospel and Bible. Without the separation of the Curse from the "heart" of a "man," the Bible would fall apart. None of it would matter.

And so this is why I spend my time doing my utmost best at Truly understanding the Mysterious Plan of God, which is the Story of God, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's what I care about . . . the Gospel, and not just being able to describe it (The Gospel is the Guuuud Neuuuws!" . . . but being able to explain it as it should be taught from early Genesis.

Genesis 3:22-24 NLT - "Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!" 23 So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

Jesus is that Tree of Life. And you know it in your heart that Adam and Eve wanted to eat from the Tree so that the Curse would be lifted . . . so that they would not physically die and be Spiritually dead. God expected us to realize that we would need to wait thousands of years before the general public might be administered by the Holy Spirit . . . to receive the Circumcision of Christ in abundance. Yes, like the Day of Pentecost, but this Holy Baptism began being gifted to people where ever they may have been at the time. The Lord can exempt a person from the Curse at any point in time. Incredibly, just two days ago, two well-known people of my community told me that when their alcoholic brother died, his pale face turned pink and he looked up with incredible excitement, eye's open so wide . . . and reaching with his arms . . . and then his heart stopped and he died.

I personally believe that this is when most people are actually saved. So many of us are allowed to live our lives as best as we can while under the captivity of the Devil, only to be Truly and Powerfully Indwelt by the Holy Spirit only breaths away from death. Is that not incredible?

God can grant His Grace and Mercy to anyone He so chooses. Not my Words, but His. And this is the core of the True Gospel of Jesus Christ. I deeply urge that we all come to know this story through the framework that I have offered above. But we must understand that the [entire] Bible wraps around that framework, and when a person grasps how Scripture relates to itself . . . both forward and backward . . . that's when their understanding of the Bible being Miraculous takes a massive leap.

Best . . .

What happened before the Garden ?

 

[jerry63935]

you say born again , do you know what that means ?

i surely do because i am ..have you ?

 

[GodsGrace]

i would hope not David had to come to Christ he had to look forward to the finished works of the Cross .


where does this born saved even come from?

Being born saved was brought up somewhere in this thread and it sounded like you agreed with it.
The NT teaches that we are born tainted with Adam's first sin, some call this the sin nature.
We are not born saved but are born lost and must come to the knowledge of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

double

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes , that's exactly what I'm saying, he was persecuting Christians but yet God put a stop to that, why is God wrong? No , of course He's not , but then you ask yourself , why did God stop him (Paul) from doing wrong , like literally interfering in his life
As for 2a ,where do you think you were before being born of woman , do you think you were created at inception ? Like what was happening before satan then known as lucifer sinned , do you think that took 7 days ?

I don't know n2, you're saying some pretty odd things here.
You cannot be saved and yet be murdering people.
This is impossible. (as to Paul being saved before he was born).

Paul became born of the spirit of God on the road to Damascus.
A person is not born of the spirit of God and murders.
The spirit of God does not murder.
God has put this into the 10 commandments.

I think I did not exist before I was born.
I think I became me at inception.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

at that he can the who so ever shall any time any place not wiling nay perish but all come to repentance he came to seek and save that which is lost freely given freely received free will

It's interesting . . . your response. What you are doing is using Scripture to manipulate God into arguing with Himself. Why?

Pretty scary.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

What happened before the Garden ?

I haven't concerned myself with such a question. What matters to me is that I fully understand the True Gospel. What a concept, eh?