Who Is "HE" That Is Taken Out Of The Way ?

[Shilohsfoal]

I believe Paul should have just stuck to preaching the gospel and left the prophecying to the prophets.
Daniel wrote much about the man of sin without the confusion.

 

[reddogs]

Hi reddogs

So, the Antichrist is holding himself back and will then be taken out of his own way so that he can come forth.

Got it!

God bless,
Ted

As I put... history is clear how Pagan Rome held back Papal Rome as it fought against and persecuted Christianity..
https://www.christianitytoday.com/h...persecution-in-early-church-did-you-know.html https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Paga...on_of_Rome_from_a_Pagan_into_a_Christian_City

 

[for_his_glory]

Tessa it's so good to see you back again. You have been missed

 

[miamited]

Hi reddogs

As I put... history is clear how Pagan Rome held back Papal Rome as it fought against and persecuted Christianity..
https://www.christianitytoday.com/h...persecution-in-early-church-did-you-know.html https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Paga...on_of_Rome_from_a_Pagan_into_a_Christian_City

I guess we first have to agree on the translation of the passage in question. For me, the passage makes reference to two separate entities. Both of which are referred to as 'he' after they are written as the subject of their respective sentences.

That passage uses the pronoun 'he' several times. In the beginning it is a subject reference to the Antichrist as he is the first name mentioned as the subject of the sentence. But then the writer draws our attention to someone else that the writer says is holding back this coming power of Antichrist for a while. Then the writer, immediately after making the subject of the new sentence this unnamed power, refers to that power as 'he' also and says that this 'he' will be removed to allow the other 'he' to do what he is set to do. There are multiple he's in the passage, but they aren't all tied to the same subject in both sentences.

Now, if you agree with my understanding that there are two 'he's', then the following question:

Please explain, in your understanding, 'who' the two he's are? Is it your claim that the first 'he' is all of Pagan Rome and that the second 'he' is Papal Rome? Surely you jest. That would mean that the Antichrist to beat all antichrists who is supposed to cause all of this tribulation isn't a person, but is a religious structure that has been around now for nearly 1800 years, or so. Who then is going to bring in the Antichrist since Pagan Rome really isn't a thing anymore.

Otherwise, if you believe that all of the pronouns 'he' are always referring to the same entity in this passage, then my previous post stands. How does the sentence structure make sense that all of the 'he's' are the same 'he'.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

@Tessa it's so good to see you back again. You have been missed

Who the heck is Tessa? Why did you just drop that post into the middle of this discusssion?

Just curious. I looked all the way back to the beginning of the thread and I don't see a 'Tessa' on here.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

Who the heck is Tessa? Why did you just drop that post into the middle of this discusssion?

Just curious. I looked all the way back to the beginning of the thread and I don't see a 'Tessa' on here.

God bless,
Ted

Tessa is a very dear member of CF that has been away for awhile and I was excited to see her back as she gave me a like on one of my post. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[ezrider]

I guess we first have to agree on the translation of the passage in question. For me, the passage makes reference to two separate entities. Both of which are referred to as 'he' after they are written as the subject of their respective sentences.

That passage uses the pronoun 'he' several times. In the beginning it is a subject reference to the Antichrist as he is the first name mentioned as the subject of the sentence. But then the writer draws our attention to someone else that the writer says is holding back this coming power of Antichrist for a while.

Ted, I have a little different understanding concerning this passage. The subject reference is not THE ANTICHRIST, but is the man of sin, the son perdition. I was a man of sin, a son going into perdition. From the moment that someone told me I was a sinner and I was going to hell unless I found Jesus, I was a man of sin, a son going to hell. But to find Jesus? Well, go read your Bible; And as I read the pages, eating up the fruit of its knowledge, my eyes became opened to sin. A man of sin.

 

[miamited]

Tessa is a very dear member of CF that has been away for awhile and I was excited to see her back as she gave me a like on one of my post. There is nothing wrong with that.

No. I didn't mean to infer that there was. I was just, as I wrote, curious why this post just popped up out of nowhere to apparently someone who is not involved in the discussion. So I was curious. And apparently by your tagging them they came over and gave you a like. All good, just curious.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Ted, I have a little different understanding concerning this passage. The subject reference is not THE ANTICHRIST, but is the man of sin, the son perdition. I was a man of sin, a son going into perdition. From the moment that someone told me I was a sinner and I was going to hell unless I found Jesus, I was a man of sin, a son going to hell. But to find Jesus? Well, go read your Bible; And as I read the pages, eating up the fruit of its knowledge, my eyes became opened to sin. A man of sin.

Hi ezrider

Oh, ok. Well that establishes the first problem in our having agreed understanding of the passage.

Thanks.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Edward]

Whereas God promised that He would not abide in the Temple if the people turned to their own way , Jesus Christ said the exact opposite .
He said that the Holy Spirit will abide with believers FOREVER !

Jhn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

So in light of Jesus's promise to us the obvious question then becomes, how can the Holy Spirit be " withdrawn" from the presence of believers in opposition to the promise of Jesus ?
Jesus being the Truth .

If there is a pretrib rapture then the Holy Spirit would go to Heaven with the Believers who have been raptured. So at that time there would be no Holy Spirit on earth so coud be said to have withdrawn from the earth. Taken out of the way and then the trib starts real soon after that. The rapture doesn't trigger the tribulation though, the signing of a 7 year treaty with Israel does. Who knows how much time is between the rapture and the signing of the peace treaty? Prolly wont be long though if He who restrained is gone.

Or so it seems to me.

 

[JLB]

Tessa it's so good to see you back again. You have been missed

Tessa , I will second that. Glad your back.

 

[JLB]

If there is a pretrib rapture then the Holy Spirit would go to Heaven with the Believers who have been raptured.

Why would the Restrainer being taken of of the way, so the antichrist can be revealed in his own time, mean the Holy Spirit is confined somehow to heaven?


The Restrainer taken out of the way, is simply God allowing the antichrist to come forth to show himself as god in the temple of God, in the timing the Father has set forth not the timing the devil has set forth.

Remember it is God Himself that is sending the strong delusion, not Satan. Satan is just operating under the timing and control of God.


Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 2 Thessalonians 2:5


The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12





JLB

 

[miamited]

Hi JLB

Why would the Restrainer being taken of of the way, so the antichrist can be revealed in his own time, mean the Holy Spirit is confined somehow to heaven?

That was the question that just popped right up in my mind, also. Why would the Holy Spirit being withdrawn by the Father to no longer keep this revelation and work of the final Antichrist at bay, logically or Scripturally, then mean that he's taken off of the earth and believers would suddenly be without him, unless they had already been raptured. And I don't agree that the rapture is going to be before the beginning of the great tribulation.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Edward]

Why would the Restrainer being taken of of the way, so the antichrist can be revealed in his own time, mean the Holy Spirit is confined somehow to heaven?

No. In fact now that I think about it, why couldn't the church be the restrainer. If it wasn't for a goodly portion of God's people all praying and crying out to God, the government & the enemy would have already made it much worse.

We are confined to earth (for the most part anyway). And there's plenty of Christian organizations that are teaching & preaching and waking people up so the enemy has quite a bit of resistance that He is unable to thwart. Hence we restrain him, through the power of God and not of ourselves.

Nevertheless, enough prayers are not going up and we all need to pray more...

 

[ezrider]

Hi ezrider

Oh, ok. Well that establishes the first problem in our having agreed understanding of the passage.

Thanks.

God bless,
Ted

Ted, why does that establish the first problem? How could we find agreement of the passage without you first understanding my position.

So a different question related to the passage; why does God himself send the man of sin strong delusion so he believe a lie?

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:



THEM, THEY. That implies a plurality, not a singular man of sin.

Another thing to consider, the man of sin sits in the temple of God showing HIMSELF that he is god. Know you not that YOU are the temple of God.

 

[miamited]

Ted, why does that establish the first problem? How could we find agreement of the passage without you first understanding my position.

Gosh!!! You're pretty good! That was exactly why I asked the question.

Now you have answered my question. After reading your answer, I can see that we aren't in agreement on what this piece of Scripture is supposed to be revealing to us, and we're likely not going to be able to come to any agreement. I say that because our understanding is just so diametrically opposed.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JLB]

And I don't agree that the rapture is going to be before the beginning of the great tribulation.

Amen.

It’s clear that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

We who are alive and remain refers to those who will be raptured.


The disciples plainly asked Jesus when His coming will take place, and Jesus plainly answered.


We as His disciples should turn to what Jesus plainly answered those who would become the leadership of His Church, for our answers today.


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Matthew 24:3


“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31


This gathering together of the saints is the resurrection and rapture of the church which Paul taught in both 1st and 2nd Thessalonians.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

again

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:1



The resurrection, rapture as well as the destruction of the antichrist all take place at His coming.



And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8




JLB

 

[miamited]

HI JLB

Hey, we do much better discussing the things of God, then the things of this world.

Yes. My chronology of the last days is that the great tribulation will come upon the earth. I can't imagine that there are so many references to the great tribulation, and that Jesus used it as a sign for us to recognize the last days...if we weren't going to be here to see the sign. Now, whether the Antichrist is known before the great tribulation or he is revealed through the works of the great tribulation, I'm not sure.

Some time after the great tribulation has begun, and I think Daniel tends to infer that it will be half way through a seven year stretch, Jesus is going to return. This is described to us by both Paul and John in his writing of the Revelation of Jesus. After that time, all who remain on the earth, the 'left behind' will suffer the wrath of God that is released as bowl judgments that we are told about from the scroll.

The 'left behind' group will lay dead in their graves while those who were gathered by Jesus live out a 1,000 year reign right here on the earth. After that, Satan will be released again for a short time, and I'm not really clear on 'why' that is, but the Scriptures say that it will happen. Then everyone will be called to the Great White Throne judgement. Every one who has ever lived, from Adam to whoever the last man standing is, will stand before God and we come to the books.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JLB]

Hey, we do much better discussing the things of God, then the things of this world.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

Yes. My chronology of the last days is that the great tribulation will come upon the earth. I can't imagine that there are so many references to the great tribulation, and that Jesus used it as a sign for us to recognize the last days...if we weren't going to be here to see the sign. Now, whether the Antichrist is known before the great tribulation or he is revealed through the works of the great tribulation, I'm not sure.

I think we see it is when he sets up an image of himself in the holy place, (abomination of desolation) and proclaims he is God, is the start of the great tribulation.


“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)… For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15,21


This is when God allows him to be revealed… in his own time.