Reconsidering Daniel 12:6-7

[Shilohsfoal]

Trevor, you wrote,
"I believe that Daniel 12:2 speaks about the period before the 1000 year Kingdom of God. Jesus will return from heaven and raise some of the dead "the many" of Daniel 12:2. Jesus will then judge these resurrected people and some will be approved and given everlasting life and others will be rejected and will suffer for a while, then die and return to the dust."

That contradicts Revelation 20:5, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

Daniel 12:2 and Revelation 20:4-6 are speaking about the same two resurrections.

The 'First Resurrection' occurs right before the thousand year reign of Christ, and the 'rest of the dead' are raised after the thousand year reign of Christ and go straight to the great white throne judgement.

In scripture, the righteous and the wicked are never resurrected together.

In Daniel 12:2,it is Daniels people who are resurected.Boty just cnd unjust.

Daniel 12:1-2
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

These are Daniels people.spme to everlasting life,other to everlasting shame.

Them who are resurected 1000 years afterward are not Daniels people.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

It does not matter who the three Persian kings were, the mighty king (11:3-4), is well understood to have been Alexander the Great.

Because of this, the answer in Daniel 12:7, "...it shall be for a time, times, and an half;" cannot equal 3.5 years.
Therefore, it cannot be made to equal 1,260 years.

The answer was provided through three prophets, Daniel, Hosea, and John.

Daniel 9:24-27 (an half - 490 years)
Hosea 5:15-6:2 (times - 2,000 years)
Revelation 20:1-7 (a time - 1,000 years)

Layers of conversion are not needed, a straight line can be drawn through each of these.

The 3.5 years starts in Daniel 11:31 and lasts till Daniel 12:2.

From the start of the persecution of the christians in Israel to the end of that persecuted when they are delivered.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The question in Daniel 12:6, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"

The timeframe is from Daniel 11:2 ,"and now I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia;" to Daniel 12:2, "...and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

FROM: Three Persian kings
TO: The great white throne judgement

Does anyone dispute that these are the FROM / TO parameters of the question in Daniel 12:6 ?

The time frame is not from Daniel 12:2.

There are 1290 days from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished to the time when the abomination of desolation is placed.

The daily sacrifice is abolished close to the arrival of the armed forces in Daniel 11:31.The abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem in Daniel 12:1 at the time of great tribulation.The time of the end.


The 3.5 years is the amount of time the christians are persecuted in Israel.It starts soon after the daily sacrifice is abolished in Daniel 12:31.

Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

3.5 years of persecution.

Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[JT4444]

It does not matter who the three Persian kings were, the mighty king (11:3-4), is well understood to have been Alexander the Great.

Because of this, the answer in Daniel 12:7, "...it shall be for a time, times, and an half;" cannot equal 3.5 years.
Therefore, it cannot be made to equal 1,260 years.

The answer was provided through three prophets, Daniel, Hosea, and John.

Daniel 9:24-27 (an half - 490 years)
Hosea 5:15-6:2 (times - 2,000 years)
Revelation 20:1-7 (a time - 1,000 years)

Layers of conversion are not needed, a straight line can be drawn through each of these.

But what do we do with those time periods? What do they tell us that is specific and useful?

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 12:3 the other sign John saw was a great red dragon meaning Satan. Remember, this is a vision and a sign as Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven until the beginning of the 3 1/2 year tribulation. The description of the dragon being great and red depicts its nature and character as being fierce and murderous, John 8:44. This red dragon is depicted as having seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. This is also confirmed in Rev 17 as mystery Babylon is described. The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The last kingdom which stands greater than all the others is that of a revived Roman Empire that takes control over all the ten nations who then implements a deceiving peace treaty with the Muslims in which the Dome of the Rock will be given over to the son of perdition as he reigns from the very Temple mount of God. This is the abomination Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15, 16 that we are to flee from when we see the son of perdition take his seat in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years.

Rev 13 the beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian economic, political and false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seventh trumpet, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 1/2 years or 3 Times as the Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 1/2 years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation, but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

From then to the end of the thousand year reign of Christ is 3500 years.

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
In 167 BC the Hellenistic Jews took over the temple.
2,300 - 167BC = 2,133AD.

Please start a different post for discussing the 2300 years of Daniel 8, and let us know where it is.

This post is focused on Daniel 12.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

But what do we do with those time periods? What do they tell us that is specific and useful?

Those time-based prophecies are the 'time, times, and an half' of Daniel 12:7.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Rev 12:3 the other sign John saw was a great red dragon meaning Satan. Remember, this is a vision and a sign as Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven until the beginning of the 3 1/2 year tribulation. The description of the dragon being great and red depicts its nature and character as being fierce and murderous, John 8:44. This red dragon is depicted as having seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. This is also confirmed in Rev 17 as mystery Babylon is described. The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The last kingdom which stands greater than all the others is that of a revived Roman Empire that takes control over all the ten nations who then implements a deceiving peace treaty with the Muslims in which the Dome of the Rock will be given over to the son of perdition as he reigns from the very Temple mount of God. This is the abomination Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15, 16 that we are to flee from when we see the son of perdition take his seat in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years.

Rev 13 the beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian economic, political and false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seventh trumpet, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 1/2 years or 3 Times as the Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 1/2 years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation, but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

Not sure how that relates to the Q&A in Daniel 12:6-7.

This seems to be another one of those posts where people are determined to discuss peripheral matters rather than the given subject.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

In Daniel 12:2,it is Daniels people who are resurected.Boty just cnd unjust.

Daniel 12:1-2
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

These are Daniels people.spme to everlasting life,other to everlasting shame.

Them who are resurected 1000 years afterward are not Daniels people.

I agree, Jews will be resurrected before the start of the thousand year reign of Christ, so will the martyred saints of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4). But none of the wicked are raised until after His reign (Revelation 20:5), at the great white throne judgement.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

The 3.5 years starts in Daniel 11:31 and lasts till Daniel 12:2.

From the start of the persecution of the christians in Israel to the end of that persecuted when they are delivered.

Right, that is a 3.5 year period (the Great Tribulation).
But those are not the parameters of the question that was asked in Daniel 12:6.
Nor is it relevant to the answer given in Daniel 12:7.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

The time frame is not from Daniel 12:2.

There are 1290 days from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished to the time when the abomination of desolation is placed.

The daily sacrifice is abolished close to the arrival of the armed forces in Daniel 11:31.The abomination of desolation is placed in Jerusalem in Daniel 12:1 at the time of great tribulation.The time of the end.


The 3.5 years is the amount of time the christians are persecuted in Israel.It starts soon after the daily sacrifice is abolished in Daniel 12:31.

Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

3.5 years of persecution.

Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The Q&A in Daniel 12:6-7 is not the same subject as what is found in Daniel 12:11-12.
In fact, Daniel 12:8 tells us that Daniel didn't understand and asked another question, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
But the man in linen did not answer his question. He told him to , "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."
So, at this point, the content of Daniel 11:2-12:9 is closed.
Daniel 12:11 is not an answer to ANY question, it is new information with an explicit From/To.
This new information is not relevant to the Q&A found in Daniel 12:6-7.

 

[for_his_glory]

Not sure how that relates to the Q&A in Daniel 12:6-7.

This seems to be another one of those posts where people are determined to discuss peripheral matters rather than the given subject.

It all has to do with what you said in the OP.

v6 (Question) "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
v7 (Answer) "it shall be for a time, times, and an half;"

The end of all these wonders will be at the end of the 3 1/2 years that Daniel spoke about. What I gave is what the 3 1/2 years are all about before the return of Christ.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

It all has to do with what you said in the OP.

v6 (Question) "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
v7 (Answer) "it shall be for a time, times, and an half;"

The end of all these wonders will be at the end of the 3 1/2 years that Daniel spoke about. What I gave is what the 3 1/2 years are all about before the return of Christ.

The Great Tribulation is over by the end of Daniel 12:1.

The first part of Daniel 12:2 correlates with Revelation 20:4-6 (the First Resurrection).
The last part of Daniel 12:2 correlates with Revelation 20:11-15 (the Great White Throne Judgement).

Not to mention, the 'man clothed in linen' doesn't even start to talk about Tribulation events until Daniel 11:36.
The 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation are only a subset of the events mentioned in the vision of Daniel 11-12.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Right, that is a 3.5 year period (the Great Tribulation).
But those are not the parameters of the question that was asked in Daniel 12:6.
Nor is it relevant to the answer given in Daniel 12:7.

No,the 3.5 year persecution of the saints in israel which takes place from Daniel 11:31 to daniel 12:1 is not the great tribulation.The great tribulation starts in Daniel 12:1.Those who's names are written are delivered.Them who names are not written are not delivered and die quickly.You can't survive very long in the middle east without water and all the water will be radioactive.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The Q&A in Daniel 12:6-7 is not the same subject as what is found in Daniel 12:11-12.
In fact, Daniel 12:8 tells us that Daniel didn't understand and asked another question, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
But the man in linen did not answer his question. He told him to , "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."
So, at this point, the content of Daniel 11:2-12:9 is closed.
Daniel 12:11 is not an answer to ANY question, it is new information with an explicit From/To.
This new information is not relevant to the Q&A found in Daniel 12:6-7.

Much of the content in Daniel 11 is already fulfilled.Youve been watching it on TV and reading about it in the news for decades now.
If you are truly a Jarhead,you may have participated in one of those conflicts.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

No,the 3.5 year persecution of the saints in israel which takes place from Daniel 11:31 to daniel 12:1 is not the great tribulation.The great tribulation starts in Daniel 12:1.Those who's names are written are delivered.Them who names are not written are not delivered and die quickly.You can't survive very long in the middle east without water and all the water will be radioactive.

Daniel 12:2 depicts two separate resurrections which correlate with the same two resurrections in Revelation 20:4-6.

Daniel 12:2, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Revelation 20:4-6, "
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

In neither case is anyone resurrected from the dead, just to be left to die again on the earth. The 'second death' is the lake of fire, which is where the unrepentant will be thrown during the great white throne judgement.

The great white throne judgement is the last event mentioned in the Daniel 11 and 12 dissertation, not the Great Tribulation.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Much of the content in Daniel 11 is already fulfilled.Youve been watching it on TV and reading about it in the news for decades now.
If you are truly a Jarhead,you may have participated in one of those conflicts.

27 years, so, yeah.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Daniel 12:2 depicts two separate resurrections which correlate with the same two resurrections in Revelation 20:4-6.

Daniel 12:2, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Revelation 20:4-6, "
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

In neither case is anyone resurrected from the dead, just to be left to die again on the earth. The 'second death' is the lake of fire, which is where the unrepentant will be thrown during the great white throne judgement.

The great white throne judgement is the last event mentioned in the Daniel 11 and 12 dissertation, not the Great Tribulation.

The false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years before the great white throne judgement.

The great tribulation takes place in Daniel 12:1


Daniel 12:1
Brenton Septuagint Translation

And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.


a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time
mathew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Great Tribulation is over by the end of Daniel 12:1.

The first part of Daniel 12:2 correlates with Revelation 20:4-6 (the First Resurrection).
The last part of Daniel 12:2 correlates with Revelation 20:11-15 (the Great White Throne Judgement).

Not to mention, the 'man clothed in linen' doesn't even start to talk about Tribulation events until Daniel 11:36.
The 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation are only a subset of the events mentioned in the vision of Daniel 11-12.

Daniel 11 teaches us about the kings of the north and south and Daniel 12 is teaching about the time of the end right before the return of Christ. No where in scripture does it mention a seven year "Great Tribulation", but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath being poured out into the world in the end of days. Scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30-31; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Daniel 11 teaches us about the kings of the north and south and Daniel 12 is teaching about the time of the end right before the return of Christ. No where in scripture does it mention a seven year "Great Tribulation", but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath being poured out into the world in the end of days. Scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30-31; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

The time of the end is in Daniel 11:40.


Daniel 11:40
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.


Daniel 11:1-39 are events that take place in the decades before 11:40 and Jesus comes in Daniel 12:1.

Daniel 11:31-12:1 corresponds to the events Jesus gave in the Olivet discourse.They cover the last 3.5 years or a time,times and a half before the coming of Jesus.


I agree,there is no 7 year great tribulation.