What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

John Calvin's Heretical Teaching

brightfame52 said:
Thats not how I see it.
Click to expand...
It's not how you see it BF, but it's how it is.
In your theology, it's God that is ordaining man to sin....
even though man may still be responsible....but it's still God that ordains everything that happens.

In effect, you're calling God something WORSE than a sinner.
A sinner sins.
But, according to reformed theology, God CREATES sin.

Woe to us,
if the God we worship is a creator of sin and evil and all the darkness in our world.
 
electedbyhim said:
The Lord detest, abhorred their sins, not them.
Click to expand...
It doesnt apply, that scripture is about National Israel under the Law Covenant. They were Gods people externally by a conditional covenant, they displeased God all the time, most of them were unregenerate reprobate.

Gods Elect in Christ are under a Covenant of Grace, they were Chosen in Christ and Loved by God from all eternity. They have never been hated by God.
 
SolaScriptura said:
John 3:18 is clear that sinners can bel
Click to expand...
Technically John 3:18 says that "unbelievers" have already been judged and found guilty. Ephesians 2:1-4 states that we were all sinners, and John states that anyone that claims to not sin, is a liar. So just like LIFE, it is WHO you know that matters, not what you do. [LOL]
 
atpollard said:
Technically John 3:18 says that "unbelievers" have already been judged and found guilty. Ephesians 2:1-4 states that we were all sinners, and John states that anyone that claims to not sin, is a liar. So just like LIFE, it is WHO you know that matters, not what you do. [LOL]
Click to expand...

Before you were saved you were a sinner and an unbeliever!
 
GodsGrace said:
As is understood by the reformed, our nature is totally corrupt,
and man is UNABLE to reach out to God or to do any good at all.
Click to expand...
I agree.

Remember that what MEN think of as good is not the correct yardstick. GOD is the yardstick against which GOOD is measured. Case in point from the bible, we pat ourselves on the back that we never murdered anyone. We might even boast that we never even struck a blow against anyone. All men would hold us up as an example ... a Gandhi or Mother Teresa. Then Jesus comes along and deflates our ego by informing us that GOD's standard is "if you are angry with your neighbor ... you commit murder in your heart [and that is just avoiding EVIL; if you want to achieve GOOD, then you must LOVE - agape - those that hate you and BLESS those that curse you.]

See how wide the gap is between HUMAN mind/body/soul and GOD's definition of GOOD?
Who then is GOOD as GOD defines it?

"Why do you call me good, God alone is good." - Jesus
 
SolaScriptura said:
Before you were saved you were a sinner and an unbeliever!
Click to expand...
From the Bible ... that is a tricky question.

  • I was foreknown (relational, not information) by God before I was born.
  • I also had a name written down in a book before the foundation of the world.
  • I was also clearly walking in sin like the "sons of disobedience" and "deserving of wrath".

So that is a matter that I leave in the hands of God.
I affirm what God has said ... no more and no less.
 
brightfame52 said:
It doesnt apply, that scripture is about National Israel under the Law Covenant. They were Gods people externally by a conditional covenant, they displeased God all the time, most of them were unregenerate reprobate.

Gods Elect in Christ are under a Covenant of Grace, they were Chosen in Christ and Loved by God from all eternity. They have never been hated by God.
Click to expand...
This is another conflict ...

You say God always loved the chosen, from all eternity.

So when they were born In Sin, as per all the confessions and Calvin, and they were depraved, did God still love them?
 
atpollard said:
I agree.

Remember that what MEN think of as good is not the correct yardstick. GOD is the yardstick against which GOOD is measured. Case in point from the bible, we pat ourselves on the back that we never murdered anyone. We might even boast that we never even struck a blow against anyone. All men would hold us up as an example ... a Gandhi or Mother Teresa. Then Jesus comes along and deflates our ego by informing us that GOD's standard is "if you are angry with your neighbor ... you commit murder in your heart [and that is just avoiding EVIL; if you want to achieve GOOD, then you must LOVE - agape - those that hate you and BLESS those that curse you.]

See how wide the gap is between HUMAN mind/body/soul and GOD's definition of GOOD?
Who then is GOOD as GOD defines it?

"Why do you call me good, God alone is good." - Jesus
Click to expand...
Agreed. 100%

We differ because I believe we are not so depraved as to be unable to respond to God when He reveals Himself to us in some way.

It's all about free will.
Even more than total depravity.
Funny, calvin taught that we have free will, in a sense, when we sin.

Because even though God ordains everything, we're still responsible when we sin.
Doesn't responsibility denote free will?
 
GodsGrace said:
Oh, I see.
No, I don't believe God - who IS love, sends evil spirits to people.

He most definitely ALLOWS evil spirits to enter into persons.
If you think that He does, then do you believe persons that are possessed by an evil spirit, to this day,
are possessed because GOD sent the evil spirit into them?

See. Scripture has to make sense.
You can't have God doing one thing in the OT and a different thing in the NT.
It's the same God in both.

You have to consider that the OT was written about 4,000 years ago and the story of David about 3,000 years ago.
They attributed everything that happened to God.

Saul became depressed. It was believed that God made him depressed.
If a person is depressed today, do you think God made them depressed?

If Jesus taught John that God IS love, and I know you know about Divine Simplicity,
then how could God EVER PUT AN EVIL SPIRIT into anyone?

We must reconcile verses that seem to conflict. You can't just pick a verse because it seems to say what you want it to say.
This reconciliation of verses can only happen if we have our theology correct.
Click to expand...
Then how do you explain the verses?

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

1 Samuel 19:9 Now there was an evil spirit from the LORD on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.

Do you agree that God allows Satan to torment, posses or influence people?
 
People only want to see God as love.

This is great...

One of the most popular beliefs of the day is that God loves everybody, and the very fact that it is so popular with all classes ought to be enough to arouse the suspicious of those who are subject to the Word of Truth. God's love toward all His creatures is the fundamental and favorite tenet of Universalists, Unitarians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, Spiritualists, Russellites, etc. No matter how a man may live -- in open defiance of Heaven, with no concern whatever for his soul's eternal interests, still less for God's glory, dying, perhaps with an oath on his lips -- notwithstanding, God loves him, we are told. So widely has this dogma been proclaimed, and so comforting is it to the heart which is at enmity with God, we have little hope of convincing many of their error. That God loves everybody, is, we may say, quite a modern belief. The writings of the church fathers, the Reformers or the Puritans will (we believe) be searched in vain for any such concept. Perhaps the late D.L. Moody -- Captivated by Drummond's "The Greatest Thing in the World" -- did more than anyone else in the last century to popularize this concept.
 
electedbyhim said:
Then how do you explain the verses?

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

1 Samuel 19:9 Now there was an evil spirit from the LORD on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.

Do you agree that God allows Satan to torment, posses or influence people?
Click to expand...
Late here. Must go.
I gave you my understanding.
Please read my post again,,, otherwise tomorrow.

Yes.
God ALLOWS.

Nothing happens without God's permission.
He's sovereign.
 
electedbyhim said:
People only want to see God as love.

This is great...

One of the most popular beliefs of the day is that God loves everybody, and the very fact that it is so popular with all classes ought to be enough to arouse the suspicious of those who are subject to the Word of Truth. God's love toward all His creatures is the fundamental and favorite tenet of Universalists, Unitarians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, Spiritualists, Russellites, etc. No matter how a man may live -- in open defiance of Heaven, with no concern whatever for his soul's eternal interests, still less for God's glory, dying, perhaps with an oath on his lips -- notwithstanding, God loves him, we are told. So widely has this dogma been proclaimed, and so comforting is it to the heart which is at enmity with God, we have little hope of convincing many of their error. That God loves everybody, is, we may say, quite a modern belief. The writings of the church fathers, the Reformers or the Puritans will (we believe) be searched in vain for any such concept. Perhaps the late D.L. Moody -- Captivated by Drummond's "The Greatest Thing in the World" -- did more than anyone else in the last century to popularize this concept.
Click to expand...
I'm not one of the above.
It's a pet peeve of mine too.
'Night
 
GodsGrace said:
Agreed. 100%

We differ because I believe we are not so depraved as to be unable to respond to God when He reveals Himself to us in some way.

It's all about free will.
Even more than total depravity.
Funny, calvin taught that we have free will, in a sense, when we sin.

Because even though God ordains everything, we're still responsible when we sin.
Doesn't responsibility denote free will?
Click to expand...
Is an alcoholic free to be sober, or is he merely free to choose to drink?

Paul says we are slaves to sin. So our will is not 100% free of all external influences. Thus we are free to do whatever we want … and we WANT to sin (and hide from God because of our sin). So we (all people) exercise our natural (fallen, slave to sin) will and we do what we want … we sin and we run from God.

Thus the need for God to DRAW men to Christ, to remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, to make them alive while they were still dead in sin [none of these are “Calvinist phrases”, God said all of them in His Word]. As Philippians 2:13 so eloquently puts it … “it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure.”
 
GodsGrace said:
This is another conflict ...

You say God always loved the chosen, from all eternity.

So when they were born In Sin, as per all the confessions and Calvin, and they were depraved, did God still love them?
Click to expand...
Yes God has always loved His chosen in Christ from all eternity, no conflict at all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top