Should Christians Fight In Wars ?

[Sissy]

Abraham also did animal sacrifice, married his half sister and had children by his wife female servants.......so are you in favor of those things as well? <o></o>
<o></o>

What is fine in the Old Testament is not in the New.<o></o>

Abraham was not blessed by Melchizedek for any of those things.

But he was blessed for going to war.

 

[Drew]

Read this Scripture slowly.

Romans 12:18 (King James Version)


<SUP id=en-KJV-28264 class=versenum>18</SUP>If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Do you think that if we read it slowly, then we will see it the way you see it ?

In any event, it is incorrect logic to read this as a legitimation of using force. You seem to presume that the only alternative to "living peacably" is to use force.

There is another alternative - leave the situation that does not allow for peaceful co-exisence.

 

[Drew]

Abraham was not blessed by Melchizedek for any of those things.

But he was blessed for going to war.

Again, you cannot simply assume that God's endorsement of war at a particular time in history translates into our times.

 

[Drew]

Somebody please explain this Scripture, I have posted it in the past and nobody has ever answered it. This was Jesus saying this Scripture. Why would Jesus tell people to buy a sword ?

Luke 22:36 (King James Version)


<SUP id=en-KJV-25901 class=versenum>36</SUP>Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

This is one of the most misunderstood texts in the Bible. Here is the context:

And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. <SUP>37</SUP>"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." <SUP>38</SUP>They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."<O</O
<O</O
Obviously a “superficial†reading suggests that Jesus is advocating the “right†to use force However, the fact that such a reading is deeply at odds with other things Jesus teaches should be a tip-off that things are not as they appear. And indeed, such is the case here. When this text is understood in broader context, we realize that Jesus is not making any kind of a case for the right to bear arms (swords or otherwise).<O</O
<O</O

In order to arrive at the correct interpretation, we really need to step back and ask ourselves what Jesus’ larger purpose was in this dialogue. Note the connective “for†at the beginning of verse 37. It suggests that the material which follows is an explanation or amplification on the point just made – that the followers of Jesus are to sell their coats and buy a sword. So what is Jesus’ larger purpose?
<O</O
<O</O
It is that He been seen as a transgressor. Jesus is intentionally orchestrating things so that the Jewish authorities will have plausible grounds for arresting Him. Of course, appearing as part of an armed band would be precisely the ideal scenario to ensure Jesus’ arrest. Remember the “for†at the beginning of verse 37. If we are to be careful students of what Jesus is saying, we need to take seriously what Jesus says in verses 37 and 38 as qualifying and explaining his statement about buying a sword. We cannot simply gloss the text and conclude “Look, Jesus is making some kind of general statement about the right to use weaponsâ€.
</O
In fact, this very specific focus on the intent to be seen as a transgressor is powerfully sustained by Jesus’ statement that there is prophecy that He (Jesus) must be seen as a transgressor.

<O</ORemember the incident in the temple with Jesus overthrowing the tables of the moneychangers. This is not, as many people think, merely a repudiation of the sin of materialism. It is also a shrewd provocation on the part of Jesus. By creating a ruckus in the temple, He is forcing the hand of the Jewish leaders – they cannot allow such behaviour, Jesus must be arrested soon.<O></O>
<O</O

This is why, in the next verse, when the disciples say they have two swords, Jesus says “It is enough.†Obviously, if Jesus ever intended for the disciples to use the swords, two swords would not be nearly enough in any kind of armed action. But it’s enough to fulfill the prophecy by making Jesus appear to be participating in a violent revolutionary movement of some kind.

<O</OUnlike the “Jesus is supporting the right to bear arms†interpretation, note how the above interpretation makes sense of the entire account. If Jesus was really making some general statement about a “right to bear armsâ€, how exactly does that contribute to His being numbered with transgressors? And how does that make sense of the limit of two swords? Such a “right to bear arms†interpretation makes sense of neither. So it is almost certainly an incorrect interpretation of Jesus’ statement about buying a couple of swords.<O</O

 

[Lewis]

Re: Should Christians Fight In Wars ?Suspicious packages 'contain explosive material,

See this is the kind of stuff that I am talking about, we don't have to take this kind of garbage, now supposed some people died in this country behind these idiots, and I guess you all would still be saying, we should not do anything.


(CNN) -- Suspicious packages found in at least two locations abroad that were bound for the United States "apparently contain explosive material," President Barack Obama said Friday, calling the discovery "a credible threat against our country."

The packages led to increased searches of cargo planes and trucks in several U.S. cities, said law enforcement sources with detailed knowledge of the investigation.
U.S. officials believe that al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, commonly referred to as AQAP, is behind the incident.
Obama confirmed that the packages originated in Yemen -- the stronghold of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

The suspicious package from Yemen had wires and a circuit board, a law enforcement source said.



"We also know that al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula ... continues to plan attacks against our homeland, our citizens, and our friends and allies," he said during a press briefing on the incident.
One suspicious package, found in the United Kingdom, contained a "manipulated" toner cartridge and had white powder on it as well as wires and a circuit board, a law enforcement source said. A similar package was discovered in Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates, the source said. The UAE General Authority of Civil Aviation issued a statement saying the package was to be shipped on a FedEx cargo plane.
Both packages were bound for the United States, "specifically two places of Jewish worship in Chicago," Obama said.
"Initial examination of those packages has determined they do apparently contain explosive material," he said.
White House counterterrorism chief John Brennan, who was the first to brief Obama on the potential threat Thursday night, said that "the materials that were found and the device that was discovered were intended to do harm."
Brennan, while declining to provide specifics, also said intelligence officials were specifically looking for such suspicious packages when the first discovery -- the package in the United Kingdom -- was made.
After the packages were found Thursday night and Friday morning, authorities were tracking about 13 other packages shipped from Yemen, a law enforcement source said. Some of them had been found and an investigation of those had not indicated they are a threat, the source said.

<cite class="expCaption">Video: Exclusive photos of suspicious item</cite>

<cite class="expCaption">Video: TSA probes suspicious items</cite>

<cite class="expCaption">Video: Townsend: Cargo tip very specific</cite>

<cite class="expCaption">Video: Suspicious items on cargo flights</cite>

<cite class="expCaption">Map: Where the cargo was found</cite>



ge.

 

[Lewis]

There is no specific intelligence indicating the other packages are a threat or that they are in the United States, the source said, but authorities want to check them as a precaution.
A Yemeni diplomat in Washington said his government has opened a full-scale investigation into the incident but it was too early to speculate or reach any conclusions.
Investigators were looking for a "possible nexus to terrorism," a U.S. official said.
"We are taking this very seriously," the official said.
The plot could be a dry run to test Western security, another official told CNN.
Brennan, however, urged caution on that theory saying, "A traditional dry run is something that you would not necessarily use with explosive materials. That said, I don't know yet what exactly the intent was at this point."
The Department of Homeland Security said it "had taken a number of steps to enhance security," including "heightened cargo screening and additional security at airports."
"Passengers should continue to expect an unpredictable mix of security layers that include explosives trace detection, advanced imaging technology, canine teams and pat downs, among others," the department said in a statement. "As always, we remind the public to remain vigilant and report suspicious activity to local law enforcement."
Some Jewish religious leaders in Chicago were alerted to the potential threat Friday, said Linda Haase, spokeswoman for the Jewish Federation of Metropolitan Chicago.
"We were notified about this earlier this morning," she said. "We are taking appropriate precautions and we are advising local synagogues to do the same."
Lucille Price, a receptionist at Anshe Emet Synagogue, said Chicago police made them aware of the reports and asked them to keep an eye out for suspicious packages among any deliveries that arrived Friday.
Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, California, said that if synagogues were indeed the intended recipients of the packages, "this is just another indication of the dangerous world we live in where Jews are the principle target."
But congregation leaders at two prominent Chicago synagogues, Temple Sholom and Chicago Sinai Congregation, told CNN they were not made aware of any attempts to ship bombs or hazardous material to them.
In the United Kingdom, police were investigating the suspicious package at a freight distribution center at East Midlands Airport, about 100 miles north of London, said airport spokesman Russell Craig. U.K. Home Secretary Theresa May said the package, which originated in Yemen and was addressed to a U.S. destination, was discovered during a search of a cargo flight. The package is being examined, she said.
May sought to assure Britons that "safety and security of the UK" is her top priority.
"We are urgently considering what steps need to be put in place regarding security of freight originating from Yemen," she said. "For security reasons there are currently no direct flights from Yemen to the UK."
She added that "at this stage there is nothing to suggest that any location in the UK was being targeted."
Meanwhile, U.S. authorities seemed most focused on inspecting cargo planes.
Investigators examined two UPS planes that landed at Philadelphia International Airport and another at Newark Liberty International Airport in New Jersey, said Mike Mangeot, a UPS spokesman. Authorities later gave the "all-clear" at the airport in Newark, U.S. and British officials said.
A law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation said six packages from Yemen were found aboard the two UPS planes in Philadelphia. Hazardous material teams were using mobile equipment to check for biological, radioactive and chemical material as well as explosives, the source said.
One plane was parked in a remote area of the airport, by Gate 11. The other was near the UPS terminal, which is far from the passenger terminal.
The Transportation and Security Administration said authorities acted "out of an abundance of caution."
UPS said it is cooperating with authorities, and its shipment is being removed from the aircraft. CNN

 

[jasoncran]

Do you think that if we read it slowly, then we will see it the way you see it ?

In any event, it is incorrect logic to read this as a legitimation of using force. You seem to presume that the only alternative to "living peacably" is to use force.

There is another alternative - leave the situation that does not allow for peaceful co-exisence.

is that always possible? hard to run from a fight when you are cornered.

flight isnt always the option, for a nation. peoples should if you can.

carjacking you cant run and most likely you will die if you do comply. especially if you are woman and the suspects intends to rape you.

that is why the castle laws were intended for.
i will run from a fight quicker then a lot will. when i say i hate the real deal of fighting i mean it.

i train for fun, in martial arts and nothing more. if i must use it i will but only if i have too.

i have been stalked several times. i went to the cops and to the station, and if need be i would have stood the ground if
need be. as i with a girlfriend and her kids in one situation and with a girlfriend and also my wife.

believe i will run.

 

[Lewis]

Yes if you can run, I would do the same, but you can't always run. Now for these idiots today who are putting terror into the hearts of Americans, and this might just be a warm up for what is to come, do you think we should just stand by and let these fools kill us, my own Philadelphia Airport shut down today to examine some packages. And some of you keep talking that, it is ok" let them have their way, Jesus does not want you to protect yourself kind of talk.Like I said I would not want to be in a fox hole with many of you.

 

[Drew]

is that always possible?

I agree - it is not always possible to "flee".

But I suggest that the instruction "if possible, live peaceably" does not logically lead to this: if it is not possible to live peaceably, then use force.

The one simply does not follow from the other.

 

[Drew]

What is fine in the Old Testament is not in the New.<O</O

Correct. The Bible tells us about an unfolding story, it is not a set of "timeless" truths.

 

[Drew]

And some of you keep talking that, it is ok" let them have their way, ......

Who said this? Not me, and I suspect no one else did either, although I have not read all the posts in detail.

To say that the Christian should reject the use of force is most decidedly not the same thing as saying that one should "let theme have their way".

 

[jasoncran]

I agree - it is not always possible to "flee".

But I suggest that the instruction "if possible, live peaceably" does not logically lead to this: if it is not possible to live peaceably, then use force.

The one simply does not follow from the other.

ok,then i can respect your position. i do that all the time.

i didnt have to be a christian to know that, i was taught that and harped on by martial artists.

while i am a soldier. i can say that most soldiers who are good actually are like that.
most soldiers dont want to go to war, just because the like to kill. a few are like that. some do want war. i was with one of those. i called him capt john wayne. i let him know that in front of all.

he wanted action and took our guys out to do that, even though our mission was to be soft and cuddly. we were the forcepro for the ca that coordinated the building projects.

john wayne hoped we went to war with iran. i told him , sir if that day comes then you may have the honor but i prefer west palm beach and my life with my wife over war anyday.

 

[Bazz1040]

Abraham was not blessed by Melchizedek for any of those things.

But he was blessed for going to war.

Where in the Bible does it say that he was blessed for going to war? And even if it did say that in the Old Testament, what Jesus said in the New Testament would overide that anyway.

 

[Bazz1040]

Re: Should Christians Fight In Wars ?Suspicious packages 'contain explosive material,

See this is the kind of stuff that I am talking about, we don't have to take this kind of garbage, now supposed some people died in this country behind these idiots, and I guess you all would still be saying, we should not do anything.


(CNN) -- Suspicious packages found in at least two locations abroad that were bound for the United States "apparently contain explosive material," President Barack Obama said Friday, calling the discovery "a credible threat against our country."

The packages led to increased searches of cargo planes and trucks in several U.S. cities, said law enforcement sources with detailed knowledge of the investigation.
U.S. officials believe that al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, commonly referred to as AQAP, is behind the incident.
Obama confirmed that the packages originated in Yemen -- the stronghold of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

The suspicious package from Yemen had wires and a circuit board, a law enforcement source said.



"We also know that al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula ... continues to plan attacks against our homeland, our citizens, and our friends and allies," he said during a press briefing on the incident.
One suspicious package, found in the United Kingdom, contained a "manipulated" toner cartridge and had white powder on it as well as wires and a circuit board, a law enforcement source said. A similar package was discovered in Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates, the source said. The UAE General Authority of Civil Aviation issued a statement saying the package was to be shipped on a FedEx cargo plane.
Both packages were bound for the United States, "specifically two places of Jewish worship in Chicago," Obama said.
"Initial examination of those packages has determined they do apparently contain explosive material," he said.
White House counterterrorism chief John Brennan, who was the first to brief Obama on the potential threat Thursday night, said that "the materials that were found and the device that was discovered were intended to do harm."
Brennan, while declining to provide specifics, also said intelligence officials were specifically looking for such suspicious packages when the first discovery -- the package in the United Kingdom -- was made.
After the packages were found Thursday night and Friday morning, authorities were tracking about 13 other packages shipped from Yemen, a law enforcement source said. Some of them had been found and an investigation of those had not indicated they are a threat, the source said.

<CITE class=expCaption>Video: Exclusive photos of suspicious item</CITE>

<CITE class=expCaption>Video: TSA probes suspicious items</CITE>

<CITE class=expCaption>Video: Townsend: Cargo tip very specific</CITE>

<CITE class=expCaption>Video: Suspicious items on cargo flights</CITE>

<CITE class=expCaption>Map: Where the cargo was found</CITE>



ge.

I suspect that this could be a false-flag. Governments do stuff like that in order to justify doing things that it would otherwise not be allowed by the people.<O</O

 

[Lewis]

Bazz1040 wrote
I suspect that this could be a false-flag. Governments do stuff like that in order to justify doing things that it would otherwise not be allowed by the people.

What are you talking about the United States government has nothing to do with this.

 

[Bazz1040]

What are you talking about the United States government has nothing to do with this.

How would you know?

 

[Strangelove]

Yes if you can run, I would do the same, but you can't always run. Now for these idiots today who are putting terror into the hearts of Americans, and this might just be a warm up for what is to come, do you think we should just stand by and let these fools kill us, my own Philadelphia Airport shut down today to examine some packages. And some of you keep talking that, it is ok" let them have their way, Jesus does not want you to protect yourself kind of talk.Like I said I would not want to be in a fox hole with many of you.

If only you could see who these people really are.

Al Quaeda is a CIA front group Lewis. It is documented and PROVEN. Stop watchin' the Hollywood movie. Start looking at the truth!

The establishment are even TELLING you these things! They are so arrogant coz they know a tiny minority are going to watch a documentary like this.

Educate yourself. Watch all 3 parts BBC - The Power of Nightmares:

[video=google;-1320822957676559056]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1320822957676559056#[/video]

 

[Bazz1040]

The war on terror is a big lie.....the U.S army in Afghanistan is there to protect the illegal drugs.<O</O

 

[Strangelove]

The war on terror is a big lie.....the U.S army in Afghanistan is there to protect the illegal drugs.<O</O

Pentagon-CIA Uses UAV Global Hawks To Ferry Heroin
by GORDON DUFF (VETERANS TODAY)

(May 11, 2010) First we are told opium and heroin are financing world terrorism, then General McChrystal tells us that we have to allow the harvest to be finished, processed into 65 billion dollars of heroin and shipped out on rendition flights and American Global Hawk UAV aircraft for distribution around the world.
I was surprised to hear the "rumor" that our massive Global Hawk UAVs that fly at 80 thousand feet were being loaded with drugs in Balochistan and flown around the world. Prior to that, FBI translator Sibel Edmonds had only told us of drug trafficking on rendition flights.

This is now a fact, not "theory" or conjecture. Is the Global Hawk story fact also? Having this confirmed was a shock for us.

We had been tracking the presence of contractors servicing UAV aircraft in this region and knew it was impossible to be arming and operating them against terrorists as facilities for this are unavailable at the 3 small air strips in the region.

Each Hawk holds tens of millions of dollars of processed heroin which can be flown anywhere in the world.

 

[Strangelove]

CIA drug trafficking
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has been involved in several drug trafficking operations. Often, the CIA worked with groups which it knew were involved in drug trafficking, so that these groups would provide them with useful intelligence and material support, in exchange for allowing their criminal activities to continue[1], and impeding or preventing their arrest, indictment, and imprisonment by U.S. law enforcement agencies[2].

CIA drug trafficking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia