Christians and the Second Amendment

[theLords]

for the record..

i am pro-gun. i wont ever by any gun. why? my wife has bi polar and sever anger issues . she has hit me several times. i have used my bjj training to stop her and control her without harm to me or her.

that said i will not condemn the brethren for owing a gun for self-defense or hunting.


but if one is a true die hard pacifist then one wouldnt debate or answer any attack one person with words of force without retreat and no response.

pacifism does include that stuff. so rhea if we are to be that way how then should you all know of christ? AND i have heard of that.

and i used to be anti-gun and anti-military as a kid. funny that changed on 6 aug 1991. yes indeed tommorow is the anniversary of service and i am so joyous.

Congratulations, Jason, an once again thank you for all your service!

So far we have been discussing RKBA issues as a "right to defend one's self and/or loved ones from deadly physical force". How do christians feel about gun ownership for "hunting" and "sporting" purposes?

You're going to get a multitude of views on this forum. This is often (and hotly) debated here. We, Christians, were actually discussing this in another thread very recently. Handy's response is the best one. It's a matter of conscious. Neither the anti-gun nor the pro-gun folks can condemn the other side.

 

[jasoncran]

handy's if you stick around has much wisdom to offer

on a side note. the reason i feel joyous is that i can say at any time after saturday i can retire at will. i am truly from now own in the guard because i want to be in not because if have to fulfill my contract.

kessler is right.

 

[theLords]

If my argument had been, "I'm right because lots of people agree with me" you would be correct that it is a fallacious argument.

But that wasn't my argument.

My argument was that your claim that I was wrong because I am atheist (emphasis in original), was disproven by the same reading being interpreted by non-atheists. By Christians.


So true. So, so true.
And interesting how many different sects disagree with each other. Each believing the others have it wrong. Each sure that they have special knowledge of truth.

Each unable to convince other Spirit-Inspired believers.
It makes for interesting discussion.

The difference is, Spirit filled believers are standing on the same level, the atheist is not.

 

[theLords]

handy's if you stick around has much wisdom to offer

on a side note. the reason i feel joyous is that i can say at any time after saturday i can retire at will. i am truly from now own in the guard because i want to be in not because if have to fulfill my contract.

kessler is right.

Handy has caused me to re-examine my beliefs several times. Hands down a top notch member here

 

[jasoncran]

that phenomon isnt unique to just chrisitianity in as most of these so called "open minded" persons are often the most opiniated in the world.

the difference with a believer is that most of these issues arent so defined in black and white, what i mean with a verse that states thou shall not do this.

eschatology is one of those areas and also this thread. i may not agree with the pacifist that wont own a gun but i wont say that he or she isnt a christian.

 

[reba]

I dont go to the science thread because i dont have enough knowledge of science.

When we only know in part things can be confusing. When we read about St Paul calling on his rights a Roman. He was resisting the evil.

Picking and choosing passages of scripture is a pass time of many folks tis a shame so may do not see the heart of God in what they read.

The whole of scripture is the Word of God but we tend to live in a world of sound bites. Sounds bites are not fair to the speaker or the listener.

 

[reba]

Handy has caused me to re-examine my beliefs several times. Hands down a top notch member here

Worth repeating

Remember her in prayer

 

[Rhea]

The difference is, Spirit filled believers are standing on the same level, the atheist is not.

Well, yes. That was my point, indeed.
I knew that you would consider a spirit-filled believer to have an ability to understand the scripture that you think I do not have. And that was why I pointed out that so many of them, not just Amish but also Mennonite and many others, all Spirit-Filled Believers, agree that the scripture clearly says to NOT resist even violent crime.

And why my point in this discussion has been that it is not clear as has been put forth here, that the bible is okay with resisting crimes against self. That it indeed, according to many Spirit-Filled Believers, says specifically and clearly to NOT resist.

And I can understand with compassion why that would be a difficult thing to read.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I dont go to the science thread because i dont have enough knowledge of science.

When we only know in part things can be confusing. When we read about St Paul calling on his rights a Roman. He was resisting the evil.

Picking and choosing passages of scripture is a pass time of many folks tis a shame so may do not see the heart of God in what they read.

The whole of scripture is the Word of God but we tend to live in a world of sound bites. Sounds bites are not fair to the speaker or the listener.

I agree. It is our obligation as believers to examine all relevant Scripture on a particular issue, especially ones that seemingly contradict. I find that viewing any issue through the "love God/neighbor/enemy" commandment a sure-fire way of discerning the Biblical accuracy of ones position.

 

[Mike]

I dont go to the science thread because i dont have enough knowledge of science.

When we only know in part things can be confusing. When we read about St Paul calling on his rights a Roman. He was resisting the evil.

Picking and choosing passages of scripture is a pass time of many folks tis a shame so may do not see the heart of God in what they read.

The whole of scripture is the Word of God but we tend to live in a world of sound bites. Sounds bites are not fair to the speaker or the listener.

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON!! I had my spleen checked out by the clerk at the gas station. He caught my interest one day when he showed me how the American Medical Association's stated purpose is to keep us all sick and incapacitated. He pulled a few lines from the "trusted" Merck Manual and showed me how they use medicine to keep us from being healthy. That's all I needed. From now on, I'm getting my check-ups from over the counter as my car gets filled up with regular unleaded. cha-ching!

 

[theLords]

Well, yes. That was my point, indeed.
I knew that you would consider a spirit-filled believer to have an ability to understand the scripture that you think I do not have. And that was why I pointed out that so many of them, not just Amish but also Mennonite and many others, all Spirit-Filled Believers, agree that the scripture clearly says to NOT resist even violent crime.

And why my point in this discussion has been that it is not clear as has been put forth here, that the bible is okay with resisting crimes against self. That it indeed, according to many Spirit-Filled Believers, says specifically and clearly to NOT resist.

And I can understand with compassion why that would be a difficult thing to read.

No, it doesn't prove your point at all. The Amish or the Mennonites, and all other Spirit Filled believers are believers, therefore, they are open to correction and Scriptural reproof. The atheist is not. By your own admission you stated that the OT (and there are several NT passages as well) contradicted your position. Even you, the atheist trying to prove the Bible says something it does not say, admitted the complete and total pacifist position contradicts the Bible. That means by your own admission you also stated that the Amish/Mennonite views of "resist evil" contradict the Bible. Go figure.

The OT contradicts this quite a bit as you have shown

 

[handy]

(allow a rapist to harm my daughter)
No! You absolutely "should" NOT, IMO!
(But the bible doesn't help you decide that)



(blow said rapist away with a gun)
I would.
But the bible does not help decide that.

The Bible does help me decide though...

Because in areas of Christian liberty...and this is indeed one of them...the Bible teaches us that we have the Holy Spirit to convict and to guide us.

Perhaps there might be a time when I am called upon to lay down my life and not exercise self-defense...I would follow the promptings of the Spirit...and act in the faith of knowing that, hey, so I get a few more years of eternity...OK.

But, the Bible teaches us that we must stand firm in our convictions because whatever is done of faith will not condemn us, but if we doubt and waffle, then we will be condemned.

Without the Spirit...well it's impossible to work that one out, but the other Christians here will understand what I'm talking about.

Because we each stand either approved or condemned before the Lord based upon our faith.

So, let's apply this principle to my daughter being held hostage by a rapist and me with a gun in my hand....

I would point said gun straight at his head and tell him to let my daughter go. I would absolutely give him the opportunity to set her free...I wouldn't shoot to kill straight away.

But, if it came to that, yes, I would shoot to kill.

Now...here's the thing Rhea, the thing that gets a little confusing for even Christians to work out, which is why a thread like this will probably hit 25+ pages:

When I stand before Christ on Judgement Day and the issue of the dead rapist comes up...what I will be judged on is if I acted in faith.

I've studied the Scriptures now for 30+ years...I don't believe that they teach, anywhere at all, that we need to allow our daughters to be raped when we have the means to prevent it. I have total faith that killing a person who so threatens my daughter, if necessary, isn't sin and under the circumstances, it would be what is reasonably expected of me as her mother and protector.

If it turns out that you're right about this...that Jesus was indeed saying in the Sermon on the Mount that I should allow the rapist to harm my daughter, even though I could stop him...will I stand condemned?

No. Even if it was sin, the sin would be covered by His blood. I ain't going to be standing before Him without sin by any means anyway...even if I'm never faced with this scenario.

The Bible does teach all these principles that I'm talking about here, so it is a most helpful book for we Christians.

 

[G. White]

This subject is apparently drifting aways from the main topic.

 

[jasoncran]

handy as well someone who is trained regulary to shoot would be assailants. once the barrel is pointed and the trigger is squeesed . i say shoot to as per florida leo training..

to k-i-l-l. or whenever the threat is stopped. always aim for the center of the target. if said attacker has a knife and is high , one bullet wont stop him or her.

i have seen videos of men drunk and hers one that will prove that and if its rather too bloody as it was done in as well idk but its real.

if one can stomach this, the victim while willing has been shot in the lung and coughs up blood and if he was an assilant he could kill the gun wielder if he was high and had a knife.

take note of the gnarly hand gesture while his left lung is filling up with blood.

[video=youtube;o4QVWtev-Aw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4QVWtev-Aw[/video]

and be advised this has some vulgarity but it is too make a point and an army medic has verified that probably wasnt faked. nor a doctored video.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Seems pretty straightforward that Jesus thinks Christians have no use for guns against other humans, especially in the context of militia."

Then rationalize Luke 22:

36 Then said he (Jesus) unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. (Guns were a bit hard to come by in those days)
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Oh - and the U.S. isn't a "Christian Country", and the Constitutuion isn't a "Christian Document".

 

[handy]

I knew that you would consider a spirit-filled believer to have an ability to understand the scripture that you think I do not have. And that was why I pointed out that so many of them, not just Amish but also Mennonite and many others, all Spirit-Filled Believers, agree that the scripture clearly says to NOT resist even violent crime.

And why my point in this discussion has been that it is not clear as has been put forth here, that the bible is okay with resisting crimes against self. That it indeed, according to many Spirit-Filled Believers, says specifically and clearly to NOT resist.

And I can understand with compassion why that would be a difficult thing to read.

Many Spirit filled believers do indeed believe, according to their interpretations of the Scriptures...that they should never resist and always be 100% pacifist. Our dear brother Cornelius was such a one...and he both lived and died by his convictions regarding this.

But, the coin flips both ways...many other, just as Spirit-filled believers read through the Scriptures and find there is no reason to resist evil in the form of self-defense.

Reba brought up Paul and it's an excellent example...He was about to be scourged and he pointed out that he was a Roman citizen and to scourge him would violate his rights as such. He didn't allow them to scourge him, then flip over to be scourged on the other side. He later resisted an assassination attempt by reporting it to the Romans and receiving a military unit of over 200 men.

No, he didn't take up any arms in his own defense...but neither did he apply the Sermon on the Mount to his situation.


I'm sure that, as an atheist, this has to lend itself to the idea that "Spirit-filled believers" is sort of a crock. It's easy to assume that, if the same Spirit is filling all of us...then we should all be in lock-step agreement on everything, especially on what the Bible teaches.

Obviously it isn't that simple...and if a reasoned person (atheist or Christian) honestly thinks about it, it really isn't logical to expect that.

This subject is apparently drifting aways from the main topic.

Threads do seem to do that, don't they.

But, it is hard, if not impossible to study a subject like "should Christians keep and use guns" without examining the principles of Christian liberty...at least for me.

 

[jasoncran]

rhea is unaware that we had a brother that was murdered on this forum.

i was pondering of cornelius' death a few days ago and what the events that transpired before that and well what he often said.

he did indeed die a most violent death.2 to this day, i havent changed my facebook avatar, which is one of his paintings.

 

[G. White]

rhea is unaware that we had a brother that was murdered on this forum.

i was pondering of cornelius' death a few days ago and what the events that transpired before that and well what he often said.

he did indeed die a most violent death.2 to this day, i havent changed my facebook avatar, which is one of his paintings.

Was he killed due to gun violence or by some other means?

 

[jasoncran]

Was he killed due to gun violence or by some other means?

shot in the head then burnt in his car. he was an south african and it was over skin color as he was white and his murderers were black.

racial tensions. no money was taken.

 

[G. White]

shot in the head then burnt in his car. he was an south african and it was over skin color as he was white and his murderers were black.

racial tensions. no money was taken.

I am so deeply sorry to read this. I hope and pray the LORD comforts you whenever his name surfaces in your heart.

There are a lot of people in America who have arsenals of guns and ammunition and who only intend to do harm (primarily gangs and other criminals). These people are likely to know nothing about the Second Amendment or the Constitution of the United States of America for that matter, and are not God-fearing people. Make no mistake! I am speaking only for law-abiding citizens (God fearing or not) who own firearms for the sole purpose of good.

I own several firearms myself, never killed anyone and have no intention of doing such, unless I was seriously pressured into such a predicament.

My father died at age 50 from a sudden heart attack brought on primarily by his alcohol abuse. This never stopped me from enjoying a few alcoholic beverages of my own from time to time, even to this day ... I just know enough not to abuse the substance.

The same goes with anything else. Guns shouldn't be thought of as bad because someone you knew was killed by one. Why should an inanimate object incapable of functioning on its own take the blame for something a human being had to be behind to make properly function in order to kill?