Christians and the Second Amendment

[Rhea]

Non Christian folks are not going to understand the Scripture or the Christian. Most Christians can well understand the nonchristian because most of us have been nonchristian at one time.

Most of us have been christian at one time. So your argument shows that we can understand equally well.

Moreover, it sounds like you are saying the Bible is not a reliable tool for atheists to learn about god.

 

[reba]

Because one labels themself a Christian does not make them one. I could call myself a football player all i want does that make me a linemen/quarterback nope. Dabbling in Scripture for personal gain does not make one a Christian.

Coming to realization that Jesus the Christ is my saviour my whole reason for living etc is much deeper than a label.

This is something in the heart of man not on the outside not the phony facade folks like to present to those around them.

MHO When one meets the Lord on a personal bases , becomes a Christian, they do not go back. Hopefully we continue to grow in Him we grow so change is enviable to become ever more like Christ.

Faith and trust are of the heart. We learn of God via the heart not just our brain.

 

[felix]

What do christians believe, or already know?

Should the Second Amendment, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." be kept as is, somewhat modified, or banned all together?

Matt 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

I am actually an outsider to this but, I can give my views on Second Amendment to US constitution as a Christian. Having a gun is not a sin. But Word of God Himself said, if you take a gun, you will die by gun. Just to add Matt 26:52 was spoken by Christ to Peter when Peter was doing what is described as 'self defense'

So, according to God, whoever wants to have Second Amendment of US constitution wishes to die by a gun .

 

[Rhea]

Because one labels themself a Christian does not make them one. I could call myself a football player all i want does that make me a linemen/quarterback nope. Dabbling in Scripture for personal gain does not make one a Christian.

I do not understand what you mean by "personal gain" nor why you would think it appropriate to assume this of me, my past or anyone else or their past?

Have you played football, then? If you have, then you could call yourself a ffotball player. You might not have been a good one, but you would have been a player.

If you call yourself a football player but know that you have never honestly tried to play football, then it is true you would be lying to call yourself one, I agree.

 

[G. White]

But Word of God Himself said, if you take a gun, you will die by gun.

God said that about guns??

It all depends on how a gun is being used. It certainly isn't true that everyone who has a gun is going to die from a gunshot wound. Some gun owners die from knife wounds, or from cancer, heart disease, diabetes, drug overdoses, automobile accidents, etcetera.

Maybe the saying, "If you live by the gun then you will die by the gun." is meant for those using a firearm to commit robberies or murder, not for people who use it for self-defense or hunting purposes. Bonnie an Clyde and John Dillinger are perfect examples of people who lived by the gun.

 

[felix]

God said that about guns??

The sword represents the weapon used to kill and hurt people just like the sword which represents war in Rev 6:4.

It all depends on how a gun is being used. It certainly isn't true that everyone who has a gun is going to die from a gunshot wound. Some gun owners die from knife wounds, or from cancer, heart disease, diabetes, drug overdoses, automobile accidents, etcetera.

Maybe the saying, "If you live by the gun then you will die by the gun." is meant for those using a firearm to commit robberies or murder, not for people who use it for self-defense or hunting purposes. Bonnie an Clyde and John Dillinger are perfect examples of people who lived by the gun.

Jesus said Matt 26:52 to Peter who wasn't living by sword, but used for self defense. Is Second Amendment all about having arms for hunting? I don't think so.

Having a gun for self defense simply means the following:

Luke 17:33 "Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

So, all who wants to lose their life and wish to die by a gun supports Second Amendment according to Scriptures.

 

[G. White]

Is Second Amendment all about having arms for hunting? I don't think so.

Well is the Second Amendment all about having a gun so one can die by the gun? I don't think so.

 

[felix]

Well is the Second Amendment all about having a gun so one can die by the gun? I don't think so.

Every household is having a knife. This doesn't mean they are going to die by knife. However, if you take a knife to kill or hurt people (even for self-defense just like Peter), Christ said, you will die by knife.

Tell me why would any person want a gun at home?

• self defense
• killing / murder

I don't think having a gun at home glorifies God. It actually means, the person is trusting the gun rather than God for protection. Hence, Second Amendment is in direct violation of Scriptures.

 

[theLords]

Jesus said Matt 26:52 to Peter who wasn't living by sword, but used for self defense. Is Second Amendment all about having arms for hunting? I don't think so.

I don't agree with your line of reasoning. Christ's rebuke of Peter went deeper than a "self-defense" argument. Peter wasn't defending Christ; Peter was warring on His behalf. Peter was trying to stop the crucifixion from taking place, as He did earlier in Matthew 16:21-23. "Living by the sword" is a mentality of living in a warlike atmosphere using aggression and force to get and do what one wants. Self-defense is not always about using some sort of physical means to defend yourself. It can be done through your words as well. When Christ was on trial before the Sanhedrin, no one came to His defense, except the Holy Spirit of God.

Having a gun for self defense simply means the following:


So, all who wants to lose their life and wish to die by a gun supports Second Amendment according to Scriptures.

This is simply a fallacy (ad hominem) on your part, so it's not worth addressing.

 

[theLords]

Every household is having a knife. This doesn't mean they are going to die by knife. However, if you take a knife to kill or hurt people (even for self-defense just like Peter), Christ said, you will die by knife.

Tell me why would any person want a gun at home?

• self defense
• killing / murder

I don't think having a gun at home glorifies God. It actually means, the person is trusting the gun rather than God for protection. Hence, Second Amendment is in direct violation of Scriptures.

Your argument falls apart when we consider law enforcement. So, we can't conclude that the Second Amendment is in violation of Scripture.

 

[handy]

Rhea,

I did read your posts. What you have to say about method is interesting. I would agree that the scientific method is a great way of gaining facts about our physical world...but you have to know that it is no more reliable than a Christian's dependence upon the Bible and Holy Spirit in determining what is truth...truth being a religious/philosophical issue.

I do know that non-Christians are "confused" about we Christians. We Christians do a pretty good job of confusing issues, agreed. But, there are also going to be things about Christianity that will always be confusing to non-believers and nothing is going to change that.

Reba's answers were good...I agree with her. And, the note about personal gain...not sure why you are internalizing it or thinking it's a personal attack against you. The passage that its in reference to is speaking to those who use God's word for personal gain.

Bottom line, and then, as much as I've enjoyed our discussion, I think I'll turn back to the issue of the Second Amendment (mainly because we are drawing the discussion further and further away from the OP)...

It is part of human nature to think that "my" way is the "best" way...this is truth applies from everything to how Christians apply Scripture in their lives to how scientists use their methods (and let's not kid each other, there are plenty of scientists who will skew results to come up with desired outcomes) to how one chooses which Peanut Butter to buy. This "my way is best" is just something ingrained in all of us.

I'm not saying that the Christian is any better about this than anyone else...we're not. But, we are answerable to God and to each other. And the Church, for all of her imperfections and infighting, still is comprised of people who are essentially following the same directions to the same conclusions. Will this remain confusing to outsiders...yeah. Will we also come to different conclusions about things like gun control amongst each other, yeah to that as well. Because the Church is imperfect.

But, our method for determining what is true about our faith...and why we can determine that Jeffs isn't of our faith...is the right method for us. Just as the scientific method is the right method for a scientist.

Think about what I'm saying this way: A cop's methods are far different from a school teacher's methods...because he's a cop, not a school teacher.

I'm a Christian, you are not. We will employ different methods to arrive at truth in our life. As a Christian, I must employ the method according to the Bible. Since I'm not perfect, nor is Reba, G. White or any other around here...differences in opinions will come up.

 

[felix]

This is simply a fallacy (ad hominem) on your part, so it's not worth addressing.

Ps 20:7-8 Some [trust] in chariots, and some in horses; But we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They have bowed down and fallen; But we have risen and stand upright. (NKJV)

How will people who trust guns remember the name of the LORD? (... according to scriptures but it may not be worth answering for you)

Your argument falls apart when we consider law enforcement. So, we can't conclude that the Second Amendment is in violation of Scripture.

Truly, my argument falls apart when you consider the law enforcement from the ruler of this world, the devil (John 14:30) who has nothing in Christ. You forgot to mention which Bible are you referring to which says to trust upon Second Amendment or weapons or other things for protection rather than God.

 

[handy]

Now, back to the OP.....


Felix, I have to stand in agreement with G. White and theLords here. Matthew 26:52 really isn't speaking about using a gun in self-defense or even as a soldier would use a gun. Nor, should Jesus's proverb be taken as literally as you seem to be taking it.

As was pointed out, if we interpret the verse as you seem to be interpreting it, then every cop and every soldier and even every criminal who ever used a gun to kill someone, would die by gunshot wound ...and we all know that just isn't the case.

If having a gun for self/defense and even community defense (because the 2nd amendment originally included community) was a direct violation of Matthew 26:52, then Jesus was also in direct violation of His own words when He instructed the disciples to go out and buy swords in Luke 22:36.

 

[theLords]

Ps 20:7-8 Some [trust] in chariots, and some in horses; But we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They have bowed down and fallen; But we have risen and stand upright. (NKJV)

How will people who trust guns remember the name of the LORD? (... according to scriptures but it may not be worth answering for you)

Your fallacious statement was not worth addressing because it was a hasty generalization as well as an insult to a portion of the brethren. You stated: "So, all who wants to lose their life and wish to die by a gun supports Second Amendment according to Scriptures." You cannot assume that every single Christian who supports the Constitution is doing so from a sinful place of the heart. It's in poor taste, downright rude, and insulting.

Neither can you assume, that one who owns a gun, trusts in their gun and not the Lord. One who does not own a gun can just as easily waver in the faith of trusting God.

Truly, my argument falls apart when you consider the law enforcement from the ruler of this world, the devil (John 14:30) who has nothing in Christ. You forgot to mention which Bible are you referring to which says to trust upon Second Amendment or weapons or other things for protection rather than God.

More ad hominem?

You cannot call law enforcement "of the devil" when it is God who sets up governmental authority and institutions (Romans 13). There are many Godly men and women, who are in law enforcement, that have absolutely nothing to do with the devil.

 

[G. White]

Every household is having a knife. However, if you take a knife to kill or hurt people (even for self-defense just like Peter), Christ said, you will die by knife.

That's exactly what I was saying about firearms. You made my point. <-- no pun intended

Tell me why would any person want a gun at home?

• self defense
• killing / murder

self defense - Yes!
murder - No!

"Living by the sword" is a mentality of living in a warlike atmosphere using aggression and force to get and do what they want.

Again this is a criminal mentality, not one of self-defense - can you separate the two?

Hitler and Stalin used guns (actually armies) to get their way, to spread terror and oppress people. Gangs do the same thing. They use guns to intimidate, rob, and murder. The typical law-abiding gun owner in America doesn't think like Hitler, Stalin, or street gangs. They think of self-preservation, as a means to protect themselves from criminals. Some may hunt, and yet others get involved in the shooting sports.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” - Thomas Jefferson (Quoting Cesare Beccaria)

 

[reba]

Good grief Handy What connection can common sense have with Scripture?

 

[theLords]

Hitler and Stalin used guns (actually armies) to get their way, to spread terror and oppress people. Gangs do the same thing. They use guns to intimidate, rob, and murder. The typical law-abiding gun owner in America doesn't think like Hitler, Stalin, or street gangs. They think of self-preservation, as a means to protect themselves from criminals. Some may hunt, and yet others get involved in the shooting sports.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.†- Thomas Jefferson (Quoting Cesare Beccaria)

I'd like to add to this: In 1915, the Muslim Turks (Ottoman Empire), murdered 1.5 million Christian Armenians. The very first thing the Turks did was disarm the Armenians. Then they murdered the men. I'm sure you can deduce from here what happened to the women and children.

 

[jasoncran]

well i am a soldier and intend to remain one for the time being. i hate violence. i dont watch gore, nor horror or any excessive violent movies.

i do however, train in the martial arts for fitness and fun, and yes if the need for me to use what i know. i will do that.

stopping a rape of that newborn girl of my daughters is just something if need be kill the assailant to do. my sister was raped and i was sexually assaulted in the army(this has a myriad of definitions and one of which was unwanted sexual groping). so why would i let my kin be assaulted so that they can have witness? my sister is still marred from that evil man(though he did admit he was wrong and a drunk, this neither toke the evil from his assault away).yes i have forgiven him but i am not going to let that happen to me and my family ever.

 

[felix]

May be we can use something that does not kill the criminal but immobilize, instead of a gun which can actually kill people.

I do agree with most of you here.... that I will not be watching any crime against my family member if it happens, but never to the extend of actually taking a gun and killing someone for self defending.

I also agree it is perfectly ok for cops and soldiers to have guns:
Rom 13:4 For he (authorities) is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to [execute] wrath on him who practices evil.

Having said that, no one must not put our trust on guns but on the Lord. I believe as long as a Christian puts his trust on the Lord, Second Amendment shouldn't be a problem.

 

[jasoncran]

May be we can use something that does not kill the criminal but immobilize, instead of a gun which can actually kill people.

I do agree with most of you here.... that I will not be watching any crime against my family member if it happens, but never to the extend of actually taking a gun and killing someone for self defending.

I also agree it is perfectly ok for cops and soldiers to have guns:
Rom 13:4 For he (authorities) is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to [execute] wrath on him who practices evil.

Having said that, no one must not put our trust on guns but on the Lord. I believe as long as a Christian puts his trust on the Lord, Second Amendment shouldn't be a problem.

the problem i see with that is that it is legal here for one to carry and conceal. if a crime of such proportion that say you are two weak to assist as the assailant is much more of match then you are or can handle and he has a knife and wants to rape/kill or harm your person. seconds count and calling the cops which i have in similar situations they(on the cell phone ) will ask where you are and what is the nature. you dont have that luxury to answer that.

flee if possible, here in florida and texas and arkansas. we have castle laws. meaning if life or limb or person is in danger i can legally use the firearm.


i would rather run but sometimes you cant run.