B
BornAgain
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The apostle here grants that the Old Testament Scriptures were able to make him wise unto salvation, but he adds:
through faith which is in Christ Jesus
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Are Christians to keep the Sabbath?
- Thread starter Gordon
- Start date
The apostle here grants that the Old Testament Scriptures were able to make him wise unto salvation, but he adds:
through faith which is in Christ Jesus
Jethro Bodine
Member
That law of liberty being 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Lev. 19:18).
We know this from James 2 itself:
"8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law (the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself") that gives freedom (James 2:8-12 NIV1984)
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Jethro Bodine
Member
No longer REQUIRED to be kept, for the purpose of being in, and staying in covenant with God, as it used to be.
Covenant is now established and maintained with God through the new way of faith in Jesus' blood. That faith finding expression in 'love your neighbor as yourself', the only thing that counts in regard to the faith that justifies.
Are you ignoring the fact that God is referring to the instructions he has just given to the Israelites about gathering manna and resting? How is it that he is speaking to us, too? What the rationale for thinking that?
B
BornAgain
Guest
The law of liberty: I am not quoting from the OT, there is no law of liberty in the OT. It is the law in the NT which we are under.
James 1:25 KJV
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:12 (KJV)
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Law is "a rule of action"; to insist that there is no law in the new covenant is to urge that there is no rule by which we are to walk today. In complete contrast with such a view, there is a "law of Christ" Gal 6:2, 1 Cor 9:21. a "law of the Spirit of life" Rom 8:2. a "law of liberty" James 1:25 James James 2:12 the "law of love" Romans 12:10. and, to insist that there is no law in the New Testament is (a) in conflict with these plain affirmations of inspiration; (b) implies that we are without an enforceable standard of conduct; and (c) disregards the significance of the word law.
B
BornAgain
Guest
Lev 19:18 says nothing about the Law of Liberty which we are now under in the NT....
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I challenge you to reread James 1 and 2 as a continuous thought.
"25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." (James 1:25 NASB)
"8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well." (James 2:8 NASB)
"12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty." (James 2:12 NASB)
The 'law of liberty' IS 'love your neighbor as yourself'. But I know this is hard to accept in a church that has been thoroughly misled and indoctrinated about the role of law in this New Covenant. You have on one side those who think it continues according to every jot and tittle, and you have on the other side those who think it has utterly disappeared completely. By faith we uphold the royal law of scripture, 'love your neighbor as yourself'. We uphold this new law, which is really an old law (as John puts it) in the new way of faith:.
"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV1984)
"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV1984)
"13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:13-14 NIV1984)
What has 'disappeared' are the literal first covenant worship requirements. The people of God are now in covenant through faith in a new and different Sacrifice, Priesthood, and Temple. One not governed by the timetables and procedures of first covenant sacrifice, priesthood, and temple.
I would politely disagree that the first covenant worship requirements have disappeared. I would submit that they have changed...
The Priesthood has changed from Levitical (Aaronical) to Melchisidec...
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Is this the first time the Prieshood changed? NO! Simply read the first ten verses of this chapter and we see that it was a Melchisidec Priesthood to begin with...
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Here was the Priest, Melchisidec (The Word who became Jesus Christ) meeting Abraham to collect tithes.
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Heb 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
So, after bringing His people out of Egypt, Christ (read 1 Cor 10:1-4) Christ delegated the Priesthood to the sons of Aaron of the tribe of Levi. This was not a permanent delegation as we see in Heb 7:11-17.
Has the need for sacrifice disappeared?
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Nope, every sin requires blood...
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
So, when we sin, what do we do? We ask that Christ's sacrifice be accepted in our stead. His blood replaces our blood as the requirement for sin...
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
We can claim that sacrifice every time we slip and fall.
If one reads the book of Hebrews we find that the prescription has not changed, the Preisthood has and so has the Sacrifice, but the 'method', if you will, is still the same. This is alluded to in Hebrews...
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Now we see that Moses made all things according to the pattern of what is in heaven. God revealed that to Him...
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Christ did not come to do away with the Priesthood or the Temple worship, He changed it, basically He reset it, to the Melchisidec Priesthood method of worship. The Levitical (Aaronical) Priesthood was a physical pattern with physical appurtenances of the Melchisidec Priesthood that was, is and ever will be in Heaven.
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tessiewebb
Member
Great post. However, you did not mention the 10 commandments were given AFTER the Melchisidec priesthood was established with Abraham. This makes the commandments also replaceable, and they were; Jesus gave two new commandments replacing all 10 of the others and all the 600+ the Hebrews had added to the original writing on stone. (Which engraving was done away with per Col 2:13-14).
B
BornAgain
Guest
I do not know where you are going with this...my contention has been and still is that all of the 10 commandments were "carried over", with some changes, into the new law except the Sabbath.
"The Law of Liberty" is the Law of Christ, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is contained in that law.
Ah, here is a point that I was challenged on many years ago and will make the same challenge here...
Do not decide this based on emotion, preconceived ideas or others' teachings, do this for yourself. Find all of the Ten Commandments, either in principle or in statement, and use no scripture after Ex 19:25.
Here are two easy gimmes for example...
Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
Gen 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Gen 20:5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Gen 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Abimelech, a gentile king, knew that adultery was a sin and carried the death penalty.
And since this thread is about the Sabbath...
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
Exo 16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
How long do you refuse to keep My Commandments? This is obviously not what would have been said if the Sabbath had just come into being.
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
The Sabbath was made at creation and Christ was at that time Lord of the Sabbath.
There are two, now with a little (and it really only takes a little) effort you can find that the other eight are in force, either by principle or direct statement. The real hint is this...
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
and...
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 5:13 plainly says that before the law was given at Mt. Sinai, sin was in the world, but without law there is no sin (Rom 4:15). And John reveals that sin is the ransgression (mentioned in Rom 4:15) of the law.
Love your neighbor as yourself is embodied in the last six and the first and greatest commandment is to love God and it is revealed in the first four.
Just out of curiosity, how do you separate the fourth commandment from the other nine? Got any scripture for this?
R
rrowell
Guest
I believe this has been shown to you by many on this site, it is obvious you have your mind made up.
Although Jethro Bodine and I may not agree on many things, he did do a good job, as did BornAgain and many others of showing scripture that answers this question.
You have only re-posted the same scripture over and over again, if you have any other to support your view I would love to see it, otherwise I myself believe any further with your argument would be just that, "argument" and not be edifying to the reader, please go back through the numerous posts for the answer you seek.
And again I quote...
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Rest here is Sabbatismos, the only place it is used in the New Testament and it means a keeping of Sabbath.
Oh and about that carried over stuff...
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Unless you believe that heaven and earth have passed away, or else Christ was a liar, the law, every bit of it, is still in force.
John 8:32--
I previously wrote that if a command could be found this side of the cross for God's people to keep and observe the sabbath day I would repent and immediateliy began to keep it. Your response gave no cause for repentance.
You offered Heb.4:9. Why not the entire context? Notice vs. 9 reads: "a rest" and has no reference at all to sabbath day keeping this side the cross. Try again.
But your sugar stick is Matt.5:17. The text does not say the law SHALL NOT PASS AWAY. It says not one jot or tittle would pass from the law ''TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.''
No, I don't think I'll be keeping your sabbath any time soon.
I previously wrote that if a command could be found this side of the cross for God's people to keep and observe the sabbath day I would repent and immediateliy began to keep it. Your response gave no cause for repentance.
You offered Heb.4:9. Why not the entire context? Notice vs. 9 reads: "a rest" and has no reference at all to sabbath day keeping this side the cross. Try again.
But your sugar stick is Matt.5:17. The text does not say the law SHALL NOT PASS AWAY. It says not one jot or tittle would pass from the law ''TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.''
No, I don't think I'll be keeping your sabbath any time soon.
And since this has not occurred yet...
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
I have to conclude that one jot or one tittle has not psased from the law or else Christ is a liar...
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Interesting, by calling it "my" Sabbath do you think that it changes anything?
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Whatever you do, do not keep "MY" Sabbath, but you may want to consider keeping the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.
As for Hebrews 4, in most cases the word for rest is katapausis or a form of that word. Means to rest.
Except for verse 9, the Greek word is Sabbatismos, from G4521 Sabbaton. Means a keeping of the Sabbath.
Several other translations make it clear what is being spoken of.
New International Version (©1984)
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
English Standard Version (©2001)
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
International Standard Version (©2008)
There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.
American Standard Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Darby Bible Translation
There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.
English Revised Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Weymouth New Testament
It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.
World English Bible
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Young's Literal Translation
there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,
Would we be having the same conversation about the Commandment that says "Thou shalt not kill"? Would you use the same ridiculous arguments to justify murder?
Col 2:16
If one seeks to be justified before God by keeping the law they should open up all the law and ask themselves "Which of these commands of God do I keep?" for it is written, "cursed is he who doesn't keep all the law." Gal 3:10
God introduced a New Covenant through Jesus first to Israel then to the whole world. Paul would never back down from grace otherwise he wouldn't have been persecuted by his country men.
Just of out curiosity, what is grace? Abolition of the law?
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Grace is the unmerited, unearned pardon from the penalty of the law...
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Which obviously gives us the freedom to live outside the law and do whatever we please. Oh wait, maybe not...
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
And what in the world is the definition of sin?
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
I have never said that keeping the law justifies us. Quite the opposite, i have always said...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
It is not even our own faith that saves us.
But the mistaken notion that grace does away with the law of God is what I disagree with. If there is no law...
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Paul plainly says there is no sin. If there is no sin, why does anyone need a Savior to pay for their sins?
smaller
Member
Neither Grace or Law is in behalf of any evil and sin, period. In this way they are identical in both nature and purpose, ever being against evil and sin.
It is quite pointless to pit Law against Grace in this regard. They are in fact identical, being against evil and sin.
Yet we find this conclusion from Paul:
Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
This conclusion does not change post salvation.
Any believer can stand under the Law or under Grace and the scripture will still make that same conclusion.
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
No believer becomes sinless under either Law or under Grace. If they claim they are sinless or 'legally obedient' and without sin, they are not speaking truthfully.
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