precepts
Member
According to the flesh, sin imputed at man's fall, no?!
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Davies
Member
Hi precepts,
I can see you're an excitable person. If we can try to be understanding of each other, I'll be willing to share with you what I think. I'll try again.
Romans 3:20
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Galatians 2:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
I think those verses are clear.
- Davies
I can see you're an excitable person. If we can try to be understanding of each other, I'll be willing to share with you what I think. I'll try again.
Romans 3:20
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Galatians 2:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
I think those verses are clear.
- Davies
farouk
Member
Well, Romans 3.23 seems pretty straightforward, anyway.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
It is no great leap of logic to conclude the law is still in force.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Keeping the Commandments seems to be pretty important, but what happens when we stumble and falter and break one or more?
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
He simply turns to the Father and says "forgive him, I understand the pulls of the flesh and that is why I died for him."
precepts
Member
I have no arguement with what you said but I do have a problem with some of what is said to be Paul's teachings that some use to cast away the laws of Moses. There are some conflicting statements said to be Paul's but I disagree knowing Paul was blessed. One of these arguements is the eating of foods offered to idols. Paul could not of said what some scriptures said he said about eating with a clear conscience or blessing and eating food offered to idols because Revelation contradicts it and calls it the doctrine of the "Nicolaitanes , the doctrine of Balaam, in Rev 2:14-15,20.
Just some food for thought on the legitimacy of some scriptures.
precepts
Member
Like I keep stressing, the reference to the law is refering to the whole law, sacrifice and all, which definately would make Christ's death and resurrection void or of no significance.
The context is of the whole law. The question Paul asked that's misinterpreted by Chris-tianity is how do you define sin? How do you define what sin is if not for what the laws of Moses, the statues of life, say sin is? That is my question to you. Define sin. How can you count yourself blameless at Christ's return. How can you be confident at Christ's return without the knowledge of what is sin to God?
Davies
Member
The law of God defines what is sin because without the law, Paul says, 'I would have not know sin,' Romans 7:7.
1 John 3:4
New King James Version (NKJV)
Sin and the Child of God
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
For those who have repented and put their faith in Jesus, they are still under the law. I don't mean the Temple laws, nor do I mean the cultural laws of the Jews. I mean the moral law of God, the law that Jesus was wrapped up in, 'Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and strength, and thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.' Disobedience to these commands is sin. As a Christian, I see this a differently than the non-believer. Paul helps us in this matter to keep sin in perspective as Christians.
Romans 7:13-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
We are wretches, every single last one of us. If we can't confess to that, then we shouldn't be allowed to sing the first chorus of Amazing grace. God is long suffering towards us, and through the process of sanctification, we will learn all about His grace. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. I think we will be spending eternity exploring the infinite depths of God's grace. I'm excited about that!
Mitspa,
I'm not trying to provoke. It's just what I have come to believe, and I truly desire unity and peace among brethren.
I'm going to be gone for the rest of the day. So, I'll be glad to rejoin the dialogue when I get home tonight.
May God's will be done today, precepts.
Grace and mercy,
- Davies
Exactly! The law defines sin. Christ saves us just as Paul says...
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
We are justified by His blood...
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
We are reconciled to the Father by Christ's death and the principle that some seem to stumble on is that we are saved by His life. Saved by His resurrection as the firstfruit among many brethren.
What Paul is plainly saying here is what he said in Hebrews...
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
The fault was with them, the people just as Paul says the law is spiritual, but he is carnal, he is not perfect yet and won't be until the resurrection.
The foundation of forgiveness is the confession of our sins...
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
On the other hand...
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Saying we have no sin is making Christ a liar.
I have nothing in the following...
precepts
Member
Once again you're denying the fact that the old testament laws did save echoing Chris-tianity's anti-christ propaganda.
I man could be perfect in the old testament laws.
The law was perfect. Christ fulfilled the sacrificial and judicial aspect of the law as a better testimony and sacrifice.
Deborah13
Member
Very clear, excellant post!
digging
Member
Precept you made this comment.
"I man could be perfect in the old testament laws"
Yes and it would seem there is only one man that ever was able to be such, Jesus Christ.
Now please anyone correct me if I'm wrong but,
It would seen that two things are needed to bring a man to this perfection,
faithfully following all that God asks.
To follow without faith doesn't work, and to have faith without following doesn't work. The two parts of a person, their spiritual part along with their physical part together brings one to perfection through God's arrangement.
Isn't that how Jesus did it, as a perfect man his deep faith gave him the power to honor the whole law?
Digging
"I man could be perfect in the old testament laws"
Yes and it would seem there is only one man that ever was able to be such, Jesus Christ.
Now please anyone correct me if I'm wrong but,
It would seen that two things are needed to bring a man to this perfection,
faithfully following all that God asks.
To follow without faith doesn't work, and to have faith without following doesn't work. The two parts of a person, their spiritual part along with their physical part together brings one to perfection through God's arrangement.
Isn't that how Jesus did it, as a perfect man his deep faith gave him the power to honor the whole law?
Digging
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M
Mitspa
Guest
You guys are messing up a good thread with made-up doctrine!
Now, ALL youl who claim "moral law"? First, the term is not a biblical one, but one made-up by religious folks years ago!
Also it is very clear that if one is under any part of the law they are subject to keep the WHOLE LAW! EVERY JOT AND TITTLE! not this and that and whatever seems best to your sense of "moral" justice.
Also those who claim to uphold "moral law" are just using another word to descibe SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS! fool yourself If you like but God is not mocked!
Also, please discribe where this moral ability comes from? You?
Are any of you "moral" and able to keep Gods Moral standards?
I think Jesus had a name for folks who thought they were "moral" Ye pit of vipers and hypocrites, ye can not keep the "moral" law of God! Yet you will not come to Him and be saved from your sin.
For they being ignorant of Gods Righteousness and going about to establish their own, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD!
Now, ALL youl who claim "moral law"? First, the term is not a biblical one, but one made-up by religious folks years ago!
Also it is very clear that if one is under any part of the law they are subject to keep the WHOLE LAW! EVERY JOT AND TITTLE! not this and that and whatever seems best to your sense of "moral" justice.
Also those who claim to uphold "moral law" are just using another word to descibe SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS! fool yourself If you like but God is not mocked!
Also, please discribe where this moral ability comes from? You?
Are any of you "moral" and able to keep Gods Moral standards?
I think Jesus had a name for folks who thought they were "moral" Ye pit of vipers and hypocrites, ye can not keep the "moral" law of God! Yet you will not come to Him and be saved from your sin.
For they being ignorant of Gods Righteousness and going about to establish their own, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD!
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precepts
Member
The law of Moses never saved. Period. Faith Saved Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
digging
Member
I'm not saying other faithful men did not try to follow the law, but as you have pointed out the scripture speak of life in connection to the keeping of all the law and as far as I know Jesus Christ is the only one who has been resurrected with immoral life. So it would seem he was the first one to ever follow the law in perfection.
Digging
Digging
M
Mitspa
Guest
It seems the NEW testament and the gospel as preached by Paul, is not very important to some? I dont know how it could have been written any clearer than the scriptures that you Have posted and that I have posted over and over on this thread?
Thanks for your post, it seems that I am a bit out numbered today?
Again I feel I should warn those who deny the Cross, that ALL MEN WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO PAULS GOSPEL.
THAT IF ANY MAN OR EVEN AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL OTHER THAN THAT WHICH PAUL PREACHED, THEY ARE CURSED!
there seems to be little fear of God among those who claim to keep the law? The pharisees showed this same character? with their mouth they professed they honored God, but their heart was far from Him.
Davies
Member
Hi Digging,
The fear of the Lord is taught throughout the Scriptures both in the Old and New Testaments. To be afraid of God should be put into its proper context. When a person thinks of God and thinks about His power, fear in our current state would be natural. Look at all the righteous men who experienced the Lord in the Old and New Testament. They all fell to their faces as if dead. We can think not only of His physical power, but His power to judge mankind in righteousness. Without being sure of one's faith in the Biblical Jesus, we would have every reason to turn stark white with fear grabbing our stomachs from the pain. It's an awesome thought to know even on a surface level of the power of God and yet know that He is as gentle as a dove. Praise the goodness of God!
- Davies