A Theological and Exegetical Examination of Holy Spirit Baptism

[Justin_Gilpin]

Re: Christ in you..

He may have been baptised in water having heard John the Baptist's preaching and he may have been baptized by Jesus apostles at some point in His minstry. He wasn't, however, baptized in the Holy Spirit as the Spirit had not yet been given.

A bunch of "ifs". Anyways we do agree Jesus' first message was "repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand" bottom line is that without repentance one cannot enter into His Kingdom.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

No kidding.. imo it's pretty ridiculous to think or believe that you can place yourself into the body of Christ.. and yet many in Christendom actually believe that.. the RCC certainly does.. and evidently your assembly does as well.

I never said I can put myself by myself in the body of Christ.

Although according to Eph 1:13 (a scripture which you apparently reject), it is after a person TRUSTS in Christ and AFTER they do believe that they are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT.



If you'd like to consider yourself lost because you couldn't control placing yourself into the body of Christ... then so be it.. imo it's just that religious pride which can't see anything but what their one true church tells them is so.

This does not answer the probelm you have with baptism with the Holy Spirit. Since being baptized with the Holy Spirit is out of my control and only God can do it, whose fault is it then if I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

If you say it is my fault, then how is my fault since being baptized with the Holy SPirit is out of my control and I have no choice in the matter?

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Christ in you..

I am asking does one have to be baptized with the Holy Spirt to be saved?

Or if one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit is he lost?

It is true that without the work of Holy Spirit, he will not make it to heaven. For every born-again believer has the Holy Spirit dwelling within him and is thereby saved. The infilling or "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit is a different matter. Not all believers have received this Promise of the Father-a reality not for salvation but that makes for a fuller Christian life and ministry.

So do not be anxious about saved people going to hell because they do not have the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Ask, and you shall receive.

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (Luke 11:13). Asking earnestly is the key. Jesus a few statements earlier declared: "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you" (verse 9). If God is your heavenly Father, but you have not received this heavenly gift, know that He has promised to give it to anyone who truly asks.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

A bunch of "ifs". Anyways we do agree Jesus' first message was "repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand" bottom line is that without repentance one cannot enter into His Kingdom.

It is also a big if to say he was not water baptized. The bible does not say if the thief had ever been water baptized or not so no one can say with certainty he was or was not water baptized...so the thief is a mute point.

Furthermore the thief is not an example of NT salvation so he is not an example of salvation for us today. He was promised paradise while he and Christ were still alive under the OT law. He lived and died before Acts 2:38 came into effect so he is not accountable to it as we are today who live after Acts 2:38. Also NT salvation requires "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, Rom 10:9. NT faith requires faith in a resurrected Christ something the thief could not have, so again he is not an example of NT salvation. At the time the thief was promised paradise Christ had not died much less been resurrected.

So if one has not been baptized with the HOly SPirit and is lost, whose fault is it?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

It is true that without the work of Holy Spirit, he will not make it to heaven. For every born-again believer has the Holy Spirit dwelling within him and is thereby saved. The infilling or "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit is a different matter. Not all believers have received this Promise of the Father-a reality not for salvation but that makes for a fuller Christian life and ministry.

So do not be anxious about saved people going to hell because they do not have the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Ask, and you shall receive.

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (Luke 11:13). Asking earnestly is the key. Jesus a few statements earlier declared: "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you" (verse 9). If God is your heavenly Father, but you have not received this heavenly gift, know that He has promised to give it to anyone who truly asks.

You say "It is true that without the work of Holy Spirit" What does this mean, what required "work" does the HS have to do?

My questions center around the baptism with the HS. Can one be saved and not be baptized with the HS? You correctly answered 'yes' earlier so this baptism is non-essential to one's salvation.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you..

I never said I can put myself by myself in the body of Christ.

Really Ernie.. that's what this is all about.. you baptizing people in water and then believing that you're saving them.. regardless if it's actually Christ doing it.. you actually believe that your act of water baptism is what SAVES.. and it's nonsense.

This does not answer the probelm you have with baptism with the Holy Spirit. Since being baptized with the Holy Spirit is out of my control and only God can do it, whose fault is it then if I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

YOURS... because you did not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.. because if you did BELIEVE, then God would seal you with the Holy Spirit... again, the scripture which you reject.

If you say it is my fault, then how is my fault since being baptized with the Holy SPirit is out of my control and I have no choice in the matter?

Because you didn't believe..

Now answer my question..

Is Christ in you or not.. or you're not sure ?

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Christ in you..

You say "It is true that without the work of Holy Spirit" What does this mean, what required "work" does the HS have to do?

Part of the workings of the Holy Spirit, is conviction of sin. It is by Him that we come to realize that we need salvation. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was Promised to all that the Lord shall call.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. [1Pet 1:21]


"And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it." - [Acts 28:25-28 KJV]

It was by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that the Jewish Christians understood that salvation was given to the Gentiles. At the time, there was much debate concerning water baptism for them and the Lord settled the matter by baptism Gentiles in his Holy Spirit. During the discussion Peter stood up and declared:

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." - [Acts 11:15-18 KJV]

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

Really Ernie.. that's what this is all about.. you baptizing people in water and then believing that you're saving them.. regardless if it's actually Christ doing it.. you actually believe that your act of water baptism is what SAVES.. and it's nonsense.



YOURS... because you did not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.. because if you did BELIEVE, then God would seal you with the Holy Spirit... again, the scripture which you reject.



Because you didn't believe..

Now answer my question..

Is Christ in you or not.. or you're not sure ?

I believe but have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit. THe eunuch believed but was not baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you..

I believe but have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit. THe eunuch believed but was not baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Let's make this really simple..

Is CHRIST in you or not.. ? Don't you know ? It's the same question Paul asked..

You're here in a Christian forum mandating water baptism and you don't know if Christ is in you or not ?

Why am I not surprised..

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller,

That doesn't answer the question. The necessity of waster baptism was taught all the way up to the Reformation.

There are several N.T. scriptures that show that not to be the case. Not that it would mean much to those who desire to promote possible burning other believers alive forever for not doing so and excusing themselves from that fate for doing so.

When baptism turns into a work to save ones hide the meaning of same is quite well lost. When it turns into a basis of condemnation to others for belief by faith in Christ it is totally lost, the people whom practice same, condemners of other believers.

These have merely inserted and allowed condemnation and self justifications into their hearts. Happens everyday.

It's only been in the last 500 years that people have questioned the necessity of water baptism.

The practice of infant baptism in the early church split them long ago. Those who split over this matter saw the fact that infant baptism often still resulted in people who did not produce spiritual fruit during adulthood and they therefore rejected that ritual as obviously ineffective dead practice, and they stopped doing and participating in it.

I however, am only dealing with those first Christians because they were taught by Jesus and the apostles. If you look at the writings of the earliest church period, the Ante-Nicene period you will find that the first Christians were untied in this belief. Since it was what was originally taught it must be assumed that it is the same thing that was taught by Jesus and the apostles, thus it is the historic Christian faith.

I might observe that there were in fact a great number of Old Testament Saints who did none of same. Did our father of faith, Abraham, exercise this performance? Isaac? Jacob?

Is God in Christ going to just bypass that matter for them, but lay it on everyone who believes post Christ? You know, a DIFFERENT scale of measures?

I believe that one of the biggest problems in the church today, at least the American church is the attitude of Americans. "I'm an American and I have a right to my opinion."

Those who make such statements only offer their own opinions to be bowed down to as a substitute.

What many fail to realize is that while they do have a right to their opinion, their having that right doesn't make their opinion correct.

And vice versa. Personally, on the basis of self justifications and a basis of condemnation to others in faith, I do not align myself with taking that basis in as an affront to my conscience. Even though I will remain with an understanding of baptism that is beautiful and have done so.

What may be important to some then is the basis of understanding rather than the legalistic understanding. In this some will reflect differently and there will 'naturally' be a LOT of various reflections on the matters, just as there always has been.

I think pride is the biggest problem in the American church and I don't think Christians realize how that pride is destroying them and the church. God said it is a humble and contrite heart that He will look upon.

Yeah, that 'humble and contrite' heart that seeks to condemn belief via faith and potentially burn other believers alive forever instead. And we scratch our heads in wonder why some are reluctant to do that and to enter into that to other believers, and why we see so many divisions, all wanting to practice right, yet the produce is written across their foreheads for others who believe to avoid.

Do you see the difference? Some will not sacrifice the Royal Law over matters of baptism. The exercise of external ritual or practice speaks nothing to matters of heart.

I had to 'exercise' my own kids over this matter.

Examples? We have a great deal of loved ones and relatives who are of a multitude of practices on the subject of baptism, many of who were 'merely sprinkled' on their heads as infants, yet who are sincere believers. And a couple of my kids got way laid by Campus Crusade in college and were quickly ushered into the SBC. IN their statement of faith, of which I could agree totally with 8 out of their 9 doctrinal points, I had to draw the line over full immersion OR BURN because of their condemnation requirement to my loved ones whom I knew to be believers.

The matter has it's limits.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

Part of the workings of the Holy Spirit, is conviction of sin. It is by Him that we come to realize that we need salvation.

So if the HS does not do this work on me then I am lost due to the HS failing to 'work' on me.

THe point I am trying to make here is that some have said one must be baptized with the HS to be saved, yet all those not baptized with the HS are lost and are lost due to God failing to baptize them with the HS putting culpability on God. IF the HS does not work on me that puts culpability on the HS for failing to work on me.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

Let's make this really simple..

Is CHRIST in you or not.. ? Don't you know ? It's the same question Paul asked..

You're here in a Christian forum mandating water baptism and you don't know if Christ is in you or not ?

Why am I not surprised..

Christ is in the Christian and the Chrsitian is in Christ both are the same thing but this is not the issue.

The issue is if one has not been baptized with the HS whose fault is it?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you..

So if the HS does not do this work on me then I am lost due to the HS failing to 'work' on me.

THe point I am trying to make here is that some have said one must be baptized with the HS to be saved, yet all those not baptized with the HS are lost and are lost due to God failing to baptize them with the HS putting culpability on God. IF the HS does not work on me that muts culpability on the HS for failing to work on me.

Well the Lord Jesus Christ is that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. and you're no different than anyone else and will be without excuse, because God has made Himself known and has given the greatest gift imaginable.. and yet many will not receive it.

So your comments here are nothing but a STRAWMAN.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you..

Christ is in the Christian and the Chrsitian is in Christ both are the same thing but this is not the issue.

The issue is if one has not been baptized with the HS whose fault is it?

What difference does it make if I say it again Ernie.. you'll come back with the same nonsense as if you were not told in simplicity the first time..

 

[Webb]

Was the leper in II Kings 5 saved, cleansed, washed, healed by the muddy waters of the Jordan when he dipped in it 7 times OR was he cleansed when he in obedience obeyed the command of God that he do so? Which? The water OR God? I say God. In like manner as the Jordan was an instrument in God's hand to heal the leper even so baptism is an instrument in God's hand to save the alien sinner, I Pet.3:21. Oh, yes, God could have healed the leper without the Jordon but the point is He DIDN'T do it. Oh, yes, God can save the sinner without baptism, but the point is He doesn't do it. Why quibble with God? Six times in the NT baptism and salvation (or the equavalent of salvation) are mentioned together. In each instance God put baptism first then followed by salvation (or an equavalent word). Coinsequence?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

Well the Lord Jesus Christ is that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. and you're no different than anyone else and will be without excuse, because God has made Himself known and has given the greatest gift imaginable.. and yet many will not receive it.

So your comments here are nothing but a STRAWMAN.

If baptism with the HS is necessary to being saved and God fails to baptize me with the HS then I certainly will have excuse. You are trying to put fault on me for something out of my control. Do I have the ability to make or force God to baptize me with the HS?

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Christ in you..

So if the HS does not do this work on me then I am lost due to the HS failing to 'work' on me.

THe point I am trying to make here is that some have said one must be baptized with the HS to be saved, yet all those not baptized with the HS are lost and are lost due to God failing to baptize them with the HS putting culpability on God. IF the HS does not work on me that puts culpability on the HS for failing to work on me.

It's a cooperative effort, but no man can brag. Not by strength, not by might, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of Hosts. You already know this.

You're logical dilemma may simply resolve as you continue with Him in prayer.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you..

If baptism with the HS is necessary to being saved and God fails to baptize me with the HS then I certainly will have excuse. You are trying to put fault on me for something out of my control. Do I have the ability to make or force God to baptize me with the HS?

I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or if you actually can't hear it..

WHEN does God SEAL a person with the Holy Spirit Ernie ?

What must I DO to be saved Ernie ?

Whose FAULT is it if I do not BELIEVE Him Ernie ?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

What difference does it make if I say it again Ernie.. you'll come back with the same nonsense as if you were not told in simplicity the first time..

You have a problem here that you are having trouble solving.

Water baptism was commanded so I can choose to obey that command or not and will be held accountable whether if I obey it or not. I have control on this baptism.

But baptism with the HS was never commanded so it is not something I can choose to obey or not obey so being baptized with the HS is out of my control. Since only God controls who is and is not baptized with the HS, then whose fault is it if I am not baptized with the HS? It would be God's fault and that is the problem you have with baptism with the HS. Secondly, baptism with the HS does not even exist today for it has been fulfilled by Christ and made obsolete some 2,000 years ago so here are two reasons this baptism is not the baptism that saves, is it not the one baptism of Eph 4:5.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or if you actually can't hear it..

WHEN does God SEAL a person with the Holy Spirit Ernie ?

What must I DO to be saved Ernie ?

Whose FAULT is it if I do not BELIEVE Him Ernie ?

This does not solve your problem either for Cornelius was an unbeliever when the HS fell upon him.