The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?

[Jethro Bodine]

We are not MADE free of sin guilt (justified) by the obedience that comes from faith. We are made free of sin guilt by faith all by itself.

Faith without works [obedience] is dead.

A faith that does not obey is a faith that does not believe.

A faith that does not obey is a faith that can not save.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works [obedience] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham was obedient, therefore he was justified by his obedience.


JLB

All true. But it's important to know James is not saying we MAKE ourselves righteous by our obedience. Faith does that all by itself. Obedience SHOWS us to have been made righteous by faith in the blood, which is also required in order to be saved (and which is also called 'being justified'). And for the purpose of this thread, the obedience that does that (shows us to be righteous by faith) is obedience in accordance with the moral commands of the law of Moses.

The church needs to know this. Instead, they have a twisted message of grace that says the faith that justifies all by itself doesn't have to uphold the law for that faith to save a person on the Day of Wrath, even thinking it a sin if they try to purposely uphold the law, as if doing that means it is being done without the Spirit. Completely false.

The church has been infiltrated by a very dangerous indoctrination. I'm pretty realistic and grounded in reality but even I am becoming more and more shocked by the number of people who think faith in Christ does not have to do anything except what it feels like doing (which amounts to basically nothing) as if that is what it means to be obedient according to the Spirit. Scary, scary doctrine in the church today.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The only solution for sin, the only answer to sin, is the Cross of Christ.

A little training in righteous living won't hurt either. I wish righteous living was an automatic thing that happened simply because you have the Holy Spirit inside of you.

When I first got saved twenty-seven years ago I think this was largely a doctrine found in charismatic circles. But I see now it has pretty much swept the evangelical church.

 

[JLB]

Remember, there is no New Testament at the time Paul said this. I don't think anyone wants to accuse Paul of 'trying to be justified by the law' simply because he endorses diligent reading and studying of the law and the prophets as a guide to righteousness.

Yes I agree.

For Paul gives us examples such as Abraham, as being declared righteous by his faith, and not by the Law.

Likewise Noah, was declared righteous, because he moved with Godly fear and obeyed God and built the Ark.

Because the children of Israel obeyed God, and walked around the walls of Jericho, the were commended for their faith.

I don't however, find anyone being commended for their faith or declared righteous by keeping the law.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The only solution for sin, the only answer to sin, is the Cross of Christ.

A little training in righteous living won't hurt either. I wish righteous living was an automatic thing that happened simply because you have the Holy Spirit inside of you.

When I first got saved twenty-seven years ago I think this was largely a doctrine found in charismatic circles. But I see now it has pretty much swept the evangelical church.

I don't necessarily believe because a person doesn't murder that he is declared to be righteous.

I don't necessarily think a person is declared righteous because he didn't eat pork.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Faith does that all by itself.

Faith does not do that all by itself.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


To validate that you believe, you must do the work of confessing with your mouth and believe in your heart... which is enough to cover someone who at the end of their life is to be saved, which is the exception and not the rule.


JLB

 

[JLB]

When I first got saved twenty-seven years ago I think this was largely a doctrine found in charismatic circles.

So now you have gone into the other ditch by thinking you have the Holy Spirit so you can keep the Law of Moses.

I hear where you are coming from, because we look to the Law of Moses to learn what we must do or don't do to be righteous, that is not trying to keep the Law.

When I first got saved twenty-seven years ago I think this was largely a doctrine found in charismatic circles. But I see now it has pretty much swept the evangelical church

But if you break down the essence of what you are saying, you will find that the Spirit of God is not sufficient of Himself to lead and guide us into the Truth, like He did with Abraham, or Job, or Enoch or Noah or Jacob.

If a person is to go the the missionary field to get jungle natives saved, that person should make sure that he or she brings many copies of the Old Testament with him, so all the new native converts can learn How God wants them to live by learning from the law of Moses.


For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:14


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' = Law of Moses

Jesus is not giving a new commandment, he is giving the proper interpretation of a passage in Torah.

Ok, could you please list the chapter and verse of the passage in the Torah that Jesus is giving the proper interpretation of.

I hope by the above quotes that the discussion becomes clear. You stated that the Law of Moses aka Torah, which represents the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) has within it instructions to love your neighbor and hate your enemy. While we could find much to support the "Love you neighbor", you would be hard pressed to find "hate your enemy" clearly printed out in any portion of the Torah. Now then, you maintain that "Hate your enemy" is part of the "Law of Moses". As such, you should be able to produce "Chapter and Verse". As such, the burdon of proof is on you. However, it appears you cannot find such a verse... so why do you say it is part of the Law?

This brings us to the "You have heard it said" and it seems your having a hard time grasping this part. I will maintain that within Torah, there is discussion that leads to Jesus claim to which Jesus says, "You have heard it said". Is Jesus lying to the crowd? Is he making this up? Who is it that says you must hate your enemy and what is their basis?

The basis is found in a discussion of Leviticus 19:18 by the school of Shammia and can also be found within the dead sea scrolls. Thus, Jesus gives us the correct interpretation of Levitucus 19:18 which follows suit with the school of Hillel.

This is history JLB and it is well documented. So unless you agree with the teachings of Shammia on Leviticus 19:18, you really have no basis to say that "Hate your enemy" is part of the Law of Moses.

I do hope that you will read over this post a few times so that you might digest what I am saying.

As far as the Law, let us be open to what Scripture has to say:


Jeremiah 31:33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,†declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

So we see that through faith, the Law is upheld.

Please excuse me now from this discussion. I am out of town and have minimal internet access.

 

[JLB]

You stated that the Law of Moses aka Torah, which represents the first five books of the Bible

That is not what I said the Law of Moses is.


31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings. 32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel. 33 And all Israel, and their elders, and officers , and their judges , stood on this side the ark and on that side before the priests the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, as well the stranger, as he that was born among them; half of them over against mount Gerizim, and half of them over against mount Ebal; as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel. 34 And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law. Joshua 8:31-34

The Law of Moses that contains the ordinances for the prieshood and the sacrifices, as well as the food laws and so forth, that the children of Israel were to keep in the land of promise.

Not all the first five books.

We are to walk in the example of what Abraham walked in, that says -

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5


We are not a part of the Covenant of Mount Sinai.

We are a part of the Covenant that the Lord made with Abraham.

Abraham was a Gentile, not a Jew.

Abraham was declared righteous before he was circumcised.

Abraham was in Covenant with Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

That is not what I said the Law of Moses is.

Then your in your own little world Brother! The Law of Moses is the first five books of the Bible. It's Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. The Jews call it the Torah and when we read Paul in his letters, he defines the law as the first five books of the Bible, as the law of Moses as well. And yes, that includes Genesis because Genesis comes under Mosaic authority since Moses is said to be the author of Genesis.

You seem to want to argue Covenants... I am well versed in Covenant theology but I see this as having nothing to do with how the law (Torah) is defined as being the first five books of the Bible.

Need I repeat myself? I am not arguing Covenants. I am simply defining Torah aka "The Law of Moses" as it has been traditionally defined and accepted by both Paul and Jesus as being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

The Law of Moses is not snipits of scripture and as such... Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5 is found within the Law of Moses. Genesis 26:5 is part of the Law of Moses which is why Paul writes that this "Faith" upholds the Law.

My brother, I do hope that you can let go of your argument long enough to see this clearly.

Grace and Peace

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION]

In my post 172 did you see anything that you agreed with?

If we can only find disagreement, then this discussion isn't for me as it edifies not.

Regardless, my time for the day has come to an end. I'll be away till next week.

Grace and Peace.

 

[JLB]

Then your in your own little world Brother! The Law of Moses is the first five books of the Bible.

I think you find yourself in need of some clarification in your "theology".


17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

The law was added 430 years after the law?

Sorry brother, you are the one in your own little world.

18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.


The Law was added to the Law?

Sorry Brother, I just don't agree with you.


The Torah is the first five books.

The Torah was written by Moses.

The Law of Moses that was given to the children of Israel, for the children of Israel, in the Land of Israel, until the Seed should come.


JLB

 

[Elijah674]

No, the ETERNAL law was just [CLARIFIED!] Heb. 13:20

John tells it [LIKE IT IS!]
1 John 2
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't however, find anyone being commended for their faith...by keeping the law.

"25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." (James 1:25 NASB)

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.' (James 2:8-9 NASB)

 

[JLB]

I don't however, find anyone being commended for their faith...by keeping the law.

"25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." (James 1:25 NASB)

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,†you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.' (James 2:8-9 NASB)

How could you think that the Law of Moses, that the Council of Jerusalem including James, would refer to that as the Law of Liberty.

10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

If the Law of Moses is the perfect Law of Liberty, then why did the Jerusalem Council not require the Gentiles turning to God to keep Moses law, and just tell Paul, no Paul your wrong the perfect law of liberty is required for gentile and Jews alike.

The Law of Moses is not of faith and is not what James is referring to as the perfect law of liberty.

The Royal Law says you shall Love God with all your heart.

You are grasping at straws.

Faith that is not obedient is a faith that can not save.

Faith without works is dead.

Obedience is what makes faith valid, and is the standard for righteousness.


JLB

 

[Elijah674]

Hey that is in there someplace?
[12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

+ Eccl. 12:13-14
[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
[14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

+ the 4th. one huh?

--Elijah

PS: I find a new post before mine?;)
You still are calling Moses law who was not born yet, God Eternal law of Heb. 13:20!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The only solution for sin, the only answer to sin, is the Cross of Christ.

A little training in righteous living won't hurt either. I wish righteous living was an automatic thing that happened simply because you have the Holy Spirit inside of you.

When I first got saved twenty-seven years ago I think this was largely a doctrine found in charismatic circles. But I see now it has pretty much swept the evangelical church.

I don't necessarily believe because a person doesn't murder that he is declared to be righteous.

'Declared righteous' means 'to be justified'.

Justified has two meanings. One is 'to be MADE righteous' (Paul's argument for justification). The other is 'to be SHOWN to be righteous' (James' argument). Check it out in any dictionary.

According to James' teaching and his use of the word 'justified', the one who doesn't murder because he has faith in Christ is SHOWING himself to have that faith. IOW, he is justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by his obedience according to the requirements of the law of Moses.

But he is not justified by his obedience according to the law in regard to Paul's definition of 'justified' (to be MADE righteous). That is impossible to do. But it is entirely possible, and required, that one be justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by what they do--specifically by their obedience that's in accordance with the requirements of the law, the examples James cites to make his point being, taking care of orphans and widows, not showing partiality, caring for the needy, loving your neighbor as yourself.

I don't necessarily think a person is declared righteous because he didn't eat pork.

An OT saint who didn't eat pork because of his faith in God would be justified (showing himself to be righteous) by that obedience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't however, find anyone being commended for their faith...by keeping the law.

"25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." (James 1:25 NASB)

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.' (James 2:8-9 NASB)

How could you think that the Law of Moses, that the Council of Jerusalem including James, would refer to that as the Law of Liberty.

10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

If the Law of Moses is the perfect Law of Liberty, then why did the Jerusalem Council not require the Gentiles turning to God to keep Moses law, and just tell Paul, no Paul your wrong the perfect law of liberty is required for gentile and Jews alike.

It's not. This illustrates why it's necessary to understand the difference between ceremonial and moral laws in the law of Moses.

People have come to the erroneous conclusion that since you can't divide the law in regard to being justified (made righteous) by works of the law then you can't ever divide the law in any other way shape or form. Simply not true since we see some of the NT telling us of our obligations to specific laws of Moses, while telling us about the end of our obligation to other laws of Moses.

The Law of Moses is not of faith...

Correct. The WAY of doing the works of the law of Moses for justification is not the WAY of faith in Christ's blood for justification. They are two distinctly different WAYS to secure justification. That is what that means.

...and is not what James is referring to as the perfect law of liberty.

The Royal Law says you shall Love God with all your heart.

Almost.

The royal law of scripture is 'love your neighbor as yourself' (James 2:8 NASB).

Faith that is not obedient is a faith that can not save.

Correct. And the obedience of the faith that saves is the obedience of 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Which, when you do that does not violate any (moral) command of the law of Moses, it fulfills it (Romans 13:8-10 NASB). That's why the obedience that upholds the law of Moses (IOW, behavior that doesn't violate the law of Moses) is the action of faith that accompanies the faith that makes one righteous (all by itself).

Obedience is what makes faith valid, and is the standard for righteousness.

That obedience being in accordance with the law of Moses, for Paul said if you 'love your neighbor as yourself' you have fulfilled the law of Moses, 'do not steal', 'do not covet', etc., as I just pointed out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So now you have gone into the other ditch by thinking you have the Holy Spirit so you can keep the Law of Moses.

You do in the sense that when you 'love your neighbor as yourself' you do not violate any of the commands in the law like 'do not steal', 'do not commit adultery', etc.

Walking by the Holy Spirit is seen on the outside as upholding the law of Moses--the moral law of Moses.

Ultimately, the Holy Spirit was indeed given to us to satisfy the requirements of God found in the law of Moses, and then some.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When I first got saved twenty-seven years ago I think this was largely a doctrine found in charismatic circles. But I see now it has pretty much swept the evangelical church

But if you break down the essence of what you are saying, you will find that the Spirit of God is not sufficient of Himself to lead and guide us into the Truth, like He did with Abraham, or Job, or Enoch or Noah or Jacob.

If a person is to go the the missionary field to get jungle natives saved, that person should make sure that he or she brings many copies of the Old Testament with him, so all the new native converts can learn How God wants them to live by learning from the law of Moses.


For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:14


JLB

You won't get any argument out of me on this.

You don't realize it, but you're not really in much disagreement with me about this subject. I'm being more patient than usual in these kinds of exchanges because I think you just haven't correctly understood what I've been saying.

 

[JLB]

'Declared righteous' means 'to be justified'.

Justified has two meanings. One is 'to be MADE righteous' (Paul's argument for justification). The other is 'to be SHOWN to be righteous' (James' argument). Check it out in any dictionary.

According to James' teaching and his use of the word 'justified', the one who doesn't murder because he has faith in Christ is SHOWING himself to have that faith. IOW, he is justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by his obedience according to the requirements of the law of Moses.

But he is not justified by his obedience according to the law in regard to Paul's definition of 'justified' (to be MADE righteous). That is impossible to do. But it is entirely possible, and required, that one be justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by what they do--specifically by their obedience that's in accordance with the requirements of the law, the examples James cites to make his point being, taking care of orphans and widows, not showing partiality, caring for the needy, loving your neighbor as yourself.

I don't necessarily think a person is declared righteous because he didn't eat pork.

An OT saint who didn't eat pork because of his faith in God would be justified (showing himself to be righteous) by that obedience.

Not obedience to the Law of Moses, brother! ed!

You just made my point!

Obedience of faith. Why are you try to make an argument for the Law of Moses producing righteousness when we are discussing what James is saying about Abraham.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

That is the work of faith, which is called obedience.

There is no Law of Moses in the equation.

The Law is not of faith.

Faith without the action of obedience is dead.

Abraham was justified, declared righteous, by the simple fact that he did what God told him to do.

He showed his love for God, by his obedience.

He showed his faith in God, by his obedience.


JLB