Johann!@#
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Shalom to you-my mistake WalterandDebbie I should really stop speed reading.
Keep up the good work!
Johann.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
1 John 5:7 Deliberate Hoax? Or Inspired Scripture?
- Thread starter WalterandDebbie
- Start date
Keep up the good work!
Johann.
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
Have a great day Johann, Love always, Walter and Debbie
Johann!@#
Member
I'm always around-but will not impose brother.
Likewise-have a great yom/day in Christ Jesus.
Yours in Christ.
Johann.
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
Yes, Brother, we are just learning some truths in our studies, Shalom.
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
9-24-23
Continue: What is the Godhead?
The Sender or the One Sent -- Who Is Greater? Strangely, even the remnant churches of God, who know the "Trinity" is a false, pagan idea that comes out of ancient Babylon, are still blinded to the truth, however. They still think that the "Word" of God or "Logos" not only helped the Father create the Universe, but they believe He ALWAYS EXISTED -- as the "Second Member" of the Godhead! Proof? They have none.
They have just ASSUMED it to be so! Since the "Word" is acknowledged by John to be "with God" and "was God" (John 1:1-3), they have simply assumed that this must mean that He eternally existed alongside the Father, and that there were in effect "two beings" or "two Gods" from all eternity! This is impossible, however, for if they were both co-equal and co-eternal, then WHY would One be called the FATHER and the other One be called the SON? What did they do, "flip a coin"? Who decided who would be which? Jesus Himself said over and over, "I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of HIM WHO SENT me" (John 6:38). He said, "As the living Father 16 hath SENT me, and I live by the Father" (v.57). He declared, "And this is the will of him that SENT me (v.40). He added, elsewhere, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do" (John 5:19). "For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth" (John 5:20). And, "He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which SENT him" (John 5:23).
As the Italians would say, "Capiche"? Do you understand? Jesus explained further, "For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself" (John 5:26). In fact, Jesus said "I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father, which hath sent me" (v.30). The One who sends another one is Greater than the one sent! A "King" sends a "messenger" to His people. Which is greater? The King, who sends the messenger? Or the messenger? The answer ought to be obvious! Jesus Himself admitted, and confessed, without any hesitation, to His disciples, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). Alluding to His true origin, Jesus told His disciples, "I came out from God" (John 16:27). He reiterated, "I came forth from the Father" (v.28). The disciples got the message. They understood. He wasn't speaking in riddles. They replied, "Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now we are sure that thou knowest all things . . . by this we believe that thou camest forth from God" (v.29-30).
To the unbelieving Jews, Jesus explained, "If God were your Father, ye would know that I proceeded and came forth from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me" (John 8:42). Why is this so hard for people to understand? People seem to go to one extreme, or the other. Either they believe, falsely, that Christ as the Logos ALWAYS existed and was (and is) "CO-EQUAL" with the Father as a sort of Trinity, or else a "BINARY" God -- or else they believe He was not "God" at all, but just a human being who "made good," and became a human "messianic figure" -- or else they don't believe in Him at all! But the truth is so plain and so simple that even a little child can understand it! Consider this typology: When God created "Man" in His own image, how did He do it? 1) He created ADAM -- one being! "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).
But the man was "alone." So God decided to make an "help" for him (Gen.2:18). Therefore, 2) He created EVE -- out of Adam! "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead 17 thereof; and the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen.2:21-22). Even so, by analogy, or typology, the FATHER came FIRST -- and then, out of Himself, Hs very own being, He took part of Himself and made THE LOGOS, to be His "helper," His divine "Companion"! What could be more simple to understand?
Continue: What is the Godhead?
The Sender or the One Sent -- Who Is Greater? Strangely, even the remnant churches of God, who know the "Trinity" is a false, pagan idea that comes out of ancient Babylon, are still blinded to the truth, however. They still think that the "Word" of God or "Logos" not only helped the Father create the Universe, but they believe He ALWAYS EXISTED -- as the "Second Member" of the Godhead! Proof? They have none.
They have just ASSUMED it to be so! Since the "Word" is acknowledged by John to be "with God" and "was God" (John 1:1-3), they have simply assumed that this must mean that He eternally existed alongside the Father, and that there were in effect "two beings" or "two Gods" from all eternity! This is impossible, however, for if they were both co-equal and co-eternal, then WHY would One be called the FATHER and the other One be called the SON? What did they do, "flip a coin"? Who decided who would be which? Jesus Himself said over and over, "I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of HIM WHO SENT me" (John 6:38). He said, "As the living Father 16 hath SENT me, and I live by the Father" (v.57). He declared, "And this is the will of him that SENT me (v.40). He added, elsewhere, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do" (John 5:19). "For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth" (John 5:20). And, "He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which SENT him" (John 5:23).
As the Italians would say, "Capiche"? Do you understand? Jesus explained further, "For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself" (John 5:26). In fact, Jesus said "I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father, which hath sent me" (v.30). The One who sends another one is Greater than the one sent! A "King" sends a "messenger" to His people. Which is greater? The King, who sends the messenger? Or the messenger? The answer ought to be obvious! Jesus Himself admitted, and confessed, without any hesitation, to His disciples, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). Alluding to His true origin, Jesus told His disciples, "I came out from God" (John 16:27). He reiterated, "I came forth from the Father" (v.28). The disciples got the message. They understood. He wasn't speaking in riddles. They replied, "Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now we are sure that thou knowest all things . . . by this we believe that thou camest forth from God" (v.29-30).
To the unbelieving Jews, Jesus explained, "If God were your Father, ye would know that I proceeded and came forth from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me" (John 8:42). Why is this so hard for people to understand? People seem to go to one extreme, or the other. Either they believe, falsely, that Christ as the Logos ALWAYS existed and was (and is) "CO-EQUAL" with the Father as a sort of Trinity, or else a "BINARY" God -- or else they believe He was not "God" at all, but just a human being who "made good," and became a human "messianic figure" -- or else they don't believe in Him at all! But the truth is so plain and so simple that even a little child can understand it! Consider this typology: When God created "Man" in His own image, how did He do it? 1) He created ADAM -- one being! "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).
But the man was "alone." So God decided to make an "help" for him (Gen.2:18). Therefore, 2) He created EVE -- out of Adam! "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead 17 thereof; and the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen.2:21-22). Even so, by analogy, or typology, the FATHER came FIRST -- and then, out of Himself, Hs very own being, He took part of Himself and made THE LOGOS, to be His "helper," His divine "Companion"! What could be more simple to understand?
Last edited:
Theology
Got to love it.
1 John 5:6 kjv
6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
Dark sunshades on. Vision dim, but not blind.
There is one group that had the Oracles of God. If we try and ignore the oracles of God, we are pretty much hurting. The Jew has the advantage (check out Romans).
We have At least 3? Heavens:
The Heaven where God is.
The heaven we live in.
The heave in us.
Gods Heaven Father, Son, Holy Spirit , Angles, more
The Roman’s 3:20 heaven:
Water. light, dry ground, blood, animals, man, more.
The image of God that we are. I suggest body, soul, spirit, but I will listen to others.
Water has three? Forms. Vapor, liquid, solid.
Water can be sterile, or contain nutrients, or enven contain harmful things.
Blood can carry nutrients, oxygen, immune system items, wastes, more.
Our nervous system can carry:
Messages, emotions, thoughts, more.
A person born just of water is human.
I won’t get into HDN yet. Yet - because I ain’t there yet (total understanding).
A person born of the Spirit is born again.
The clouds
The New Jerusalem
The carnal mind
The Mind of Christ.
If we are not able to understand metaphysics (something greater/above Solomon), then we will have problems seeing types, shadows that allow working all this out.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Got to love it.
1 John 5:6 kjv
6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
Dark sunshades on. Vision dim, but not blind.
There is one group that had the Oracles of God. If we try and ignore the oracles of God, we are pretty much hurting. The Jew has the advantage (check out Romans).
We have At least 3? Heavens:
The Heaven where God is.
The heaven we live in.
The heave in us.
Gods Heaven Father, Son, Holy Spirit , Angles, more
The Roman’s 3:20 heaven:
Water. light, dry ground, blood, animals, man, more.
The image of God that we are. I suggest body, soul, spirit, but I will listen to others.
Water has three? Forms. Vapor, liquid, solid.
Water can be sterile, or contain nutrients, or enven contain harmful things.
Blood can carry nutrients, oxygen, immune system items, wastes, more.
Our nervous system can carry:
Messages, emotions, thoughts, more.
A person born just of water is human.
I won’t get into HDN yet. Yet - because I ain’t there yet (total understanding).
A person born of the Spirit is born again.
The clouds
The New Jerusalem
The carnal mind
The Mind of Christ.
If we are not able to understand metaphysics (something greater/above Solomon), then we will have problems seeing types, shadows that allow working all this out.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
The words "let us" in Hebrew are AIT. In other words, not really there.
Theion means "Divine Eternal."
Theiotēs means "Divine Nature."
Theotēs means " Divine Bodily."
The word "Incarnate" is not scriptural.
Genesis 1:26,27
(Elohiym / God of the living ones)
God of the living ones spoke, making man in (our / their) image and likeness. "Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock animals, and all the earth, and every land animal that walks the earth." 27 So God of the living ones created mankind in His own image, in the image of God of the living ones, He created them; male and female He created them.
"Let us" is AIT. It is not in scriptures.
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
9-24-23 Continue: What is the Godhead?
Who Is Really the Greatest in the Kingdom? When God's Plan is completed, Paul tells us in I Corinthians 15, that even Jesus Christ will be under the final authority of God the Father. This would be ridiculous, of course, IF He were a member of a Trinity, and always was EQUAL with the Father! However, we read the words of the apostle Paul, who stated plainly: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ will all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits [Greek, singular, firstfruit]; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father . . . For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all thingsare put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD may be all in all" (I Cor.15:24-28). How plain! God the Father is the GREATEST in the Kingdom of God! He is the Supreme Ruler. Under Him is Jesus Christ, the Logos. And under Him, directly, will be the Church, the "bride of Christ" (Rev.19:7-9).
As the "bride" of Christ, obviously, then, we will also have to be VERY GOD, AS HE IS GOD! Stop and think of this mystery! Do men marry animals? Did you ever see a man marry a duck? or a chicken? or a goose? or a pig? or a dog? or a cat? or a giraffe? or a monkey? Of course not! Men should and by definition only ought to "marry" A HUMAN BEING -- A WOMAN, designed and equipped to be a "help" to him in his life, who can bear his children, and be a "helpmate" for him! Men don't marry animals! Any man who would think to do so would be considered "crazy" -- and rightly so! Therefore, this fact alone also proves that when we are in the Kingdom of God, and born of God at the coming of Christ, at the resurrection, we will be just like God -- on the SAME DIVINE PLANE OF EXISTENCE. God could only marry another "God" being! So Christ will "marry" the Church, His affianced "Bride" -- because she will be "God," even as He is "God" -- a member of the divine, Univese-ruling God FAMILY!
But -- when Christ marries His bride -- who is going to perform the Wedding?18 Why, the Father, of course!It should be clear, the Father is Supreme; then comes Christ; and then the "Church," at Christ's coming. And then the rest of mankind will be judged. They will be "as children" of the Bride and the Groom, and brought along to salvation from that time forward! Generations and generations will be brought into the Kingdom-Family of God!
Who Is Really the Greatest in the Kingdom? When God's Plan is completed, Paul tells us in I Corinthians 15, that even Jesus Christ will be under the final authority of God the Father. This would be ridiculous, of course, IF He were a member of a Trinity, and always was EQUAL with the Father! However, we read the words of the apostle Paul, who stated plainly: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ will all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits [Greek, singular, firstfruit]; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father . . . For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all thingsare put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD may be all in all" (I Cor.15:24-28). How plain! God the Father is the GREATEST in the Kingdom of God! He is the Supreme Ruler. Under Him is Jesus Christ, the Logos. And under Him, directly, will be the Church, the "bride of Christ" (Rev.19:7-9).
As the "bride" of Christ, obviously, then, we will also have to be VERY GOD, AS HE IS GOD! Stop and think of this mystery! Do men marry animals? Did you ever see a man marry a duck? or a chicken? or a goose? or a pig? or a dog? or a cat? or a giraffe? or a monkey? Of course not! Men should and by definition only ought to "marry" A HUMAN BEING -- A WOMAN, designed and equipped to be a "help" to him in his life, who can bear his children, and be a "helpmate" for him! Men don't marry animals! Any man who would think to do so would be considered "crazy" -- and rightly so! Therefore, this fact alone also proves that when we are in the Kingdom of God, and born of God at the coming of Christ, at the resurrection, we will be just like God -- on the SAME DIVINE PLANE OF EXISTENCE. God could only marry another "God" being! So Christ will "marry" the Church, His affianced "Bride" -- because she will be "God," even as He is "God" -- a member of the divine, Univese-ruling God FAMILY!
But -- when Christ marries His bride -- who is going to perform the Wedding?18 Why, the Father, of course!It should be clear, the Father is Supreme; then comes Christ; and then the "Church," at Christ's coming. And then the rest of mankind will be judged. They will be "as children" of the Bride and the Groom, and brought along to salvation from that time forward! Generations and generations will be brought into the Kingdom-Family of God!
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
9-24-23 Continue: What is the Godhead?
The Overwhelming Mystery This is such an overwhelming mystery! The "Christian" religions of this world have missed this sublime truth. They dwell in ignorance and spiritual darkness, with hardly a glimmer of this marvelous truth penetrating through to their consciousness. In fact, to most of them this awesome truth is nothing short of heresy -- fanaticism -- foolishness! But it is the TRUTH! The apostle Paul understood it.
This was no problem to his understanding. It did not cause him any sense of "confusion." But many are confused, today, even among the so-called "remnant" churches of God that keep the Sabbath, the holy days (as best they understand), and who think they teach the "whole counsel of God." O how ignorant they are! They deny this plain and simple truth of the origin of the Word of God, this truth about the mystery of the Godhead! Paul, however, understood it perfectly.
He wrote: "But to us there is but ONE GOD, even the Father, of whom are all things [including the "Logos," then], and we in him; and ONE LORD Jesus Christ, by whom are all things [the rest of creation], and we by him" (I Cor.8:6). Paul goes on, "Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge" (v.7). O how true! This knowledge, today especially, seems to be lost and hidden from view -- obscured by centuries of false teachings concerning the pagan "Trinity" doctrine foisted upon the world by the decadent and apostate Roman Catholic church and her daughterwhore churches! "The Deep Things of God" No doubt many will have a hard time believing these things.
They have been taught error for too long. They have imbibed error; they have drunk it to their fill; and they are totally convinced that they must be right; and no amount of argument, proof, presentation, Biblical texts, or Scriptural evidence will sway them from their preconceived ideas and superstitions! As Herbert Armstrong used to say, over and over again, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Also, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." And, "It is tens times harder to unlearn error than to learn new truth." 19 He was right. Absolutely right! If he were alive today, he might have a lot to say to those ministers who claim to be following him, and walking in his footsteps, but who reject proven and verifiable new truth! What a mystery it is! The apostle Paul exclaimed: "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God" (I Cor.2:7-10). These teachings are truly the "deep things of God." Is this deep enough for you? Truly, God's plan for mankind is breathtaking in its scope, breadth, depth, heighth, and expanse!
The Overwhelming Mystery This is such an overwhelming mystery! The "Christian" religions of this world have missed this sublime truth. They dwell in ignorance and spiritual darkness, with hardly a glimmer of this marvelous truth penetrating through to their consciousness. In fact, to most of them this awesome truth is nothing short of heresy -- fanaticism -- foolishness! But it is the TRUTH! The apostle Paul understood it.
This was no problem to his understanding. It did not cause him any sense of "confusion." But many are confused, today, even among the so-called "remnant" churches of God that keep the Sabbath, the holy days (as best they understand), and who think they teach the "whole counsel of God." O how ignorant they are! They deny this plain and simple truth of the origin of the Word of God, this truth about the mystery of the Godhead! Paul, however, understood it perfectly.
He wrote: "But to us there is but ONE GOD, even the Father, of whom are all things [including the "Logos," then], and we in him; and ONE LORD Jesus Christ, by whom are all things [the rest of creation], and we by him" (I Cor.8:6). Paul goes on, "Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge" (v.7). O how true! This knowledge, today especially, seems to be lost and hidden from view -- obscured by centuries of false teachings concerning the pagan "Trinity" doctrine foisted upon the world by the decadent and apostate Roman Catholic church and her daughterwhore churches! "The Deep Things of God" No doubt many will have a hard time believing these things.
They have been taught error for too long. They have imbibed error; they have drunk it to their fill; and they are totally convinced that they must be right; and no amount of argument, proof, presentation, Biblical texts, or Scriptural evidence will sway them from their preconceived ideas and superstitions! As Herbert Armstrong used to say, over and over again, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Also, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." And, "It is tens times harder to unlearn error than to learn new truth." 19 He was right. Absolutely right! If he were alive today, he might have a lot to say to those ministers who claim to be following him, and walking in his footsteps, but who reject proven and verifiable new truth! What a mystery it is! The apostle Paul exclaimed: "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God" (I Cor.2:7-10). These teachings are truly the "deep things of God." Is this deep enough for you? Truly, God's plan for mankind is breathtaking in its scope, breadth, depth, heighth, and expanse!
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
9-24-23 Continue: What is the Godhead?
The Hebrew Letter "M" This awesome plan of God is also hinted at in the Hebrew language itself. The Hebrew letter "mem" -- the equivalent of our English "M" -- stands in the middle of the Hebrew alphabet. It is the middle letter of the Hebrew word "emet" -- meaning "truth." Jesus Christ announced, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).
The word "emet" ends with the letter "tau" -- or "T" in English. This is the LAST letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The word "emet" begins with the letter "aleph" in Hebrew -- this is the FIRST letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Thus Jesus Christ is the BEGINNING and the END, and also the MIDDLE of all things -- of "truth." He declared, "I am Alpha [first letter of the Greek alphabet, or Aleph in Hebrew] and Omega [the last letter of the Greek alphabet, which would be Tau, in Hebrew], the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, and WAS, and which IS TO COME, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8). He asserted, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the FIRST AND THE LAST" (Rev.22:13). The word "emet," or "truth," contains the first, middle, and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and also REPRESENTS CHRIST! He is the Aleph (the First), and He is the Tau -- the Last! Paul said of Christ, "Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever" (Heb.13:8). He is the Word of God, the Truth, which endures forever (I Pet.1:25) -- the beginning, the middle, and the end! The letter "mem", or "M," also stands for Christ. It is the middle letter of the 20 Hebrew alphabet.
It also represents the "womb" of a woman. As a normal letter, the "mem" is always "open" at the lower left hand corner, except when it is the final letter of a word, when it is always "closed." Thus Christ is the "prince of peace" (Isa.9:6) and the "King of peace" (Heb.7:2) -- the word "peace" being shalom in Hebrew -- a word endingwith the "closed mem." Christ is also "king of righteousness" and "King of peace" (Heb.7:2) -- and the word "king" in Hebrew is melek, with the first letter an open "mem." A "Peek" into Eternity In Isaiah 9:6 we read of the promised Messiah, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder: And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of peace." This passage shows the Messiah was to be born of a woman, and be a child who would grow up to become the Messiah. This is a Messianic passage predicting the Christ or Anointed One of God would be born of a human woman. Isaiah 7;14 shows this woman would be a virgin daughter of Israel: "Therefore the LORD himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14).
Then, in Isaiah 9:7, we read, "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." The word "increase" in Hebrew is #4768 in Strong's Concordance and is marbiyth, meaning "a multitude, offspring, greatness, increase." Gesenius HebrewChaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament defines the word as "multitude, magnitude (II Chron.9:6; 30:18), very great part (I Chron.12:29), progeny, increase of a family (I Sam.2:33), interest, as if the increase of the principal (Lev.25:37)."
Notice that this is referring to the production of offspring -- Messiah would have unlimited, or limitless multitude of offspring -- that is, sons whom He brings to salvation. Of the growth and increase of His "progeny" there would be "NO END" -- that is, no limit, no stopping -- in other words, the increase of His Family will CONTINUE TO INCREASE AND EXPAND FOREVER, WITHOUT ENDING! THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE FAMILY OF GOD! The word "government" here is misrah and means "empire." It is from the root word sarah meaning "to prevail, have power, as a prince." The word for "peace" is shalom and means much more than just "peace," as we think of it in English. It is a comprehensive Hebrew word meaning: "peace, completeness, welfare, health" (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary, "peace," p.173). 21 Says Vine's: "Shalom is a very important term in the Old Testament and has maintained its place in Mishnaic, rabbinic, and modern Hebrew.
In Israel today, people greet the newcomer and each other with the words ma shlomka, ('what is your peace?', 'how are you doing?') and they ask about the 'peace' ('well-being') of one's family. "The use of shalom is frequent (237 times) and varied in its semantic range. The first two occurrences in Genesis already indicate the changes in meaning: 'And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace' [shalom in the sense of 'in tranquility,' 'at ease,' 'unconcerned']; thou shalt be buried in a good old age' (Gen.15:15); and 'that thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace [shalom with the meaning of 'unharmed' and 'unhurt'] . . .' (Gen.26:29). Yet, both usages are essentially the same, as they express the root meaning of 'to be whole.'" Therefore, when we put this all together, we have a picture of an idyllic kingdom or empire which will prevail everywhere, and will bring true wholeness, peace, wellbeing, tranquility, and prosperity everywhere.
And it will continue multiplying and increasing in government and peace FOR EVER -- without any ending!This pictures a constantly increasing and expanding kingdom throughout eternity, with MORE AND MORE GOD-BEINGS -- members of the family of God -- being REPRODUCED for ever and for ever . . . always increasing, multiplying, more progeny, more increase and more multitudes added to the family -- the Family of God! Thousands of generations! Isn't it amazing?
The Hebrew Letter "M" This awesome plan of God is also hinted at in the Hebrew language itself. The Hebrew letter "mem" -- the equivalent of our English "M" -- stands in the middle of the Hebrew alphabet. It is the middle letter of the Hebrew word "emet" -- meaning "truth." Jesus Christ announced, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).
The word "emet" ends with the letter "tau" -- or "T" in English. This is the LAST letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The word "emet" begins with the letter "aleph" in Hebrew -- this is the FIRST letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Thus Jesus Christ is the BEGINNING and the END, and also the MIDDLE of all things -- of "truth." He declared, "I am Alpha [first letter of the Greek alphabet, or Aleph in Hebrew] and Omega [the last letter of the Greek alphabet, which would be Tau, in Hebrew], the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, and WAS, and which IS TO COME, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8). He asserted, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the FIRST AND THE LAST" (Rev.22:13). The word "emet," or "truth," contains the first, middle, and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, and also REPRESENTS CHRIST! He is the Aleph (the First), and He is the Tau -- the Last! Paul said of Christ, "Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever" (Heb.13:8). He is the Word of God, the Truth, which endures forever (I Pet.1:25) -- the beginning, the middle, and the end! The letter "mem", or "M," also stands for Christ. It is the middle letter of the 20 Hebrew alphabet.
It also represents the "womb" of a woman. As a normal letter, the "mem" is always "open" at the lower left hand corner, except when it is the final letter of a word, when it is always "closed." Thus Christ is the "prince of peace" (Isa.9:6) and the "King of peace" (Heb.7:2) -- the word "peace" being shalom in Hebrew -- a word endingwith the "closed mem." Christ is also "king of righteousness" and "King of peace" (Heb.7:2) -- and the word "king" in Hebrew is melek, with the first letter an open "mem." A "Peek" into Eternity In Isaiah 9:6 we read of the promised Messiah, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder: And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of peace." This passage shows the Messiah was to be born of a woman, and be a child who would grow up to become the Messiah. This is a Messianic passage predicting the Christ or Anointed One of God would be born of a human woman. Isaiah 7;14 shows this woman would be a virgin daughter of Israel: "Therefore the LORD himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14).
Then, in Isaiah 9:7, we read, "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." The word "increase" in Hebrew is #4768 in Strong's Concordance and is marbiyth, meaning "a multitude, offspring, greatness, increase." Gesenius HebrewChaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament defines the word as "multitude, magnitude (II Chron.9:6; 30:18), very great part (I Chron.12:29), progeny, increase of a family (I Sam.2:33), interest, as if the increase of the principal (Lev.25:37)."
Notice that this is referring to the production of offspring -- Messiah would have unlimited, or limitless multitude of offspring -- that is, sons whom He brings to salvation. Of the growth and increase of His "progeny" there would be "NO END" -- that is, no limit, no stopping -- in other words, the increase of His Family will CONTINUE TO INCREASE AND EXPAND FOREVER, WITHOUT ENDING! THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE FAMILY OF GOD! The word "government" here is misrah and means "empire." It is from the root word sarah meaning "to prevail, have power, as a prince." The word for "peace" is shalom and means much more than just "peace," as we think of it in English. It is a comprehensive Hebrew word meaning: "peace, completeness, welfare, health" (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary, "peace," p.173). 21 Says Vine's: "Shalom is a very important term in the Old Testament and has maintained its place in Mishnaic, rabbinic, and modern Hebrew.
In Israel today, people greet the newcomer and each other with the words ma shlomka, ('what is your peace?', 'how are you doing?') and they ask about the 'peace' ('well-being') of one's family. "The use of shalom is frequent (237 times) and varied in its semantic range. The first two occurrences in Genesis already indicate the changes in meaning: 'And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace' [shalom in the sense of 'in tranquility,' 'at ease,' 'unconcerned']; thou shalt be buried in a good old age' (Gen.15:15); and 'that thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace [shalom with the meaning of 'unharmed' and 'unhurt'] . . .' (Gen.26:29). Yet, both usages are essentially the same, as they express the root meaning of 'to be whole.'" Therefore, when we put this all together, we have a picture of an idyllic kingdom or empire which will prevail everywhere, and will bring true wholeness, peace, wellbeing, tranquility, and prosperity everywhere.
And it will continue multiplying and increasing in government and peace FOR EVER -- without any ending!This pictures a constantly increasing and expanding kingdom throughout eternity, with MORE AND MORE GOD-BEINGS -- members of the family of God -- being REPRODUCED for ever and for ever . . . always increasing, multiplying, more progeny, more increase and more multitudes added to the family -- the Family of God! Thousands of generations! Isn't it amazing?
WalterandDebbie
Sabbath Overseer
9-24-23 Conclusion
God's Plan will go ON FOREVER! The Hebrew word for "end" in Isaiah 9:7 is 7093 in Strong's, or qets (pronounced kates) and means "(utmost) border, end, (in-)finite." Gesenius adds, "end, extremity, whether of space (Isa.37:24; Jer.50:26), or of time." The term "no end" therefore means God's Kingdom will continue expanding without any limit or extremity, forever, with no end in either time or space -- the Universe will keep expanding to infinity, and will God's Kingdom will endure to eternity -- an infinity of time and space. It will always grow! And think of it -- we have the opportunity to get in on the action -- on the ground floor -- as the "firstfruits" of God and of Christ, at His coming! An allusion to this is found in Genesis, where God declares, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease" (Gen.8:22).
The "harvest" of new sons for the Kingdom of God will never "cease." In Deuteronomy, we read: "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep 22 his commandments to a THOUSAND GENERATIONS . . ." (Deut.7:9). How long is a "thousand generations"? Since Adam and Eve were created about 6000 years ago, and since there are 40 years to a generation (Num.14:34), since Adam and Eve there have been only 150 generations of mankind. If one generation is 40 years, then one thousand generations is 40,000 years! And that is just a "drop in the bucket" compared to the concept of ETERNITY! God is Reproducing His Family -- HimselfIndeed, God IS reproducing Himself -- through His Son, Jesus Christ the Messiah! God the Father and the Logos made mankind "in their image," after their own "likeness" -- in effect, after their own "KIND" of being! That is their ultimate intention. But, for now, we are created out of the dust of the ground, physical, flesh and blood human beings, capable of death.
We are now being "tested," to see if we love God with all our hearts and mind, and whether we are willing to OBEY His commandments and never go astray! God is going to continue the process of reproducing Himself, as the Fountain of Life, as the Source, expanding His Kingdom and multiplying His children, grand children, and great-great grandchildren, for all eternity. Interestingly, the word for increase in Isaiah 9:7, marbiyth, begins with the Hebrew letter "mem." But this is the only word in the Hebrew Old Testament text that begins with a "mem" which violates the laws of Hebrew grammar -- that is, in this case the first letter of the word, the "mem," is a CLOSED MEM! In all other words where a "mem" is at the beginning or middle of a word, it is always an "open mem." According to rabbinical exegesis, the "mem" symbolizes the "womb" of a woman. Why then did God inspire this particular word to have a CLOSED MEM in its construction? This strange anomaly of Scripture tells us first of all, that the Messiah would be born of a VIRGIN -- A WOMAN WITH A "CLOSED WOMB"! The "increase" of God's Kingdom, then, would be accomplished MIRACULOUSLY -- supernaturally -- by God's divine POWER, the Holy Spirit (see Luke 1:30-35).
This unusual fact also tells us that ALL the "increase" in the Family and Kingdom of God would come through Christ, the Messiah! The increase of God's Kingdom is accomplished miraculously, by divine power -- acting upon the "closed mem." All the increase must come through Jesus Christ, the Messiah born of the human virgin. He is the "first begotten" and He is the "only begotten" of God in that special way (John 1:14; Col.1:15). Therefore, the "mem" is closed. However, through Him the family of God will continue to "increase" -- 23 FOREVER! The pattern has been set. The template has been perfected. And now it but remains for the rest of us to "get on board," and get with the process, and repent of our sins and short-comings, turn to God, accept Christ as our Saviour, and receive His Holy Spirit (Acts 2:28; 5:32). And then we must overcome, and endure to the end, serving and obeying God and keeping His commandments, growing in love and the fruits of His Spirit (Gal.5:22-23), till the process is perfected, until we reach "ripeness" and spiritual "maturity" so we are ready to be "harvested" into God's Kingdom! Reproduction of the family of God both begins and ends IN CHRIST! The "mem" is closed, meaning not only was He born of a virgin, with a closed womb, but that none other will be born of God in exactly the same way He was -- begotten of the Spirit of God the Father in the womb of a woman (compare Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18-23).
All others must come to God through Him! He alone is the Saviour, whose name is YESHUA (Matt.1:20-21). "He shall save his people from their sins" (same verse). "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Jesus said, "I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that more abundantly" (John 10:7-10). Jesus alone is Saviour and Redeemer. As Peter and John announced in the book of Acts, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Are you ready to get to know the one and only Messiah?
God's Plan will go ON FOREVER! The Hebrew word for "end" in Isaiah 9:7 is 7093 in Strong's, or qets (pronounced kates) and means "(utmost) border, end, (in-)finite." Gesenius adds, "end, extremity, whether of space (Isa.37:24; Jer.50:26), or of time." The term "no end" therefore means God's Kingdom will continue expanding without any limit or extremity, forever, with no end in either time or space -- the Universe will keep expanding to infinity, and will God's Kingdom will endure to eternity -- an infinity of time and space. It will always grow! And think of it -- we have the opportunity to get in on the action -- on the ground floor -- as the "firstfruits" of God and of Christ, at His coming! An allusion to this is found in Genesis, where God declares, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease" (Gen.8:22).
The "harvest" of new sons for the Kingdom of God will never "cease." In Deuteronomy, we read: "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep 22 his commandments to a THOUSAND GENERATIONS . . ." (Deut.7:9). How long is a "thousand generations"? Since Adam and Eve were created about 6000 years ago, and since there are 40 years to a generation (Num.14:34), since Adam and Eve there have been only 150 generations of mankind. If one generation is 40 years, then one thousand generations is 40,000 years! And that is just a "drop in the bucket" compared to the concept of ETERNITY! God is Reproducing His Family -- HimselfIndeed, God IS reproducing Himself -- through His Son, Jesus Christ the Messiah! God the Father and the Logos made mankind "in their image," after their own "likeness" -- in effect, after their own "KIND" of being! That is their ultimate intention. But, for now, we are created out of the dust of the ground, physical, flesh and blood human beings, capable of death.
We are now being "tested," to see if we love God with all our hearts and mind, and whether we are willing to OBEY His commandments and never go astray! God is going to continue the process of reproducing Himself, as the Fountain of Life, as the Source, expanding His Kingdom and multiplying His children, grand children, and great-great grandchildren, for all eternity. Interestingly, the word for increase in Isaiah 9:7, marbiyth, begins with the Hebrew letter "mem." But this is the only word in the Hebrew Old Testament text that begins with a "mem" which violates the laws of Hebrew grammar -- that is, in this case the first letter of the word, the "mem," is a CLOSED MEM! In all other words where a "mem" is at the beginning or middle of a word, it is always an "open mem." According to rabbinical exegesis, the "mem" symbolizes the "womb" of a woman. Why then did God inspire this particular word to have a CLOSED MEM in its construction? This strange anomaly of Scripture tells us first of all, that the Messiah would be born of a VIRGIN -- A WOMAN WITH A "CLOSED WOMB"! The "increase" of God's Kingdom, then, would be accomplished MIRACULOUSLY -- supernaturally -- by God's divine POWER, the Holy Spirit (see Luke 1:30-35).
This unusual fact also tells us that ALL the "increase" in the Family and Kingdom of God would come through Christ, the Messiah! The increase of God's Kingdom is accomplished miraculously, by divine power -- acting upon the "closed mem." All the increase must come through Jesus Christ, the Messiah born of the human virgin. He is the "first begotten" and He is the "only begotten" of God in that special way (John 1:14; Col.1:15). Therefore, the "mem" is closed. However, through Him the family of God will continue to "increase" -- 23 FOREVER! The pattern has been set. The template has been perfected. And now it but remains for the rest of us to "get on board," and get with the process, and repent of our sins and short-comings, turn to God, accept Christ as our Saviour, and receive His Holy Spirit (Acts 2:28; 5:32). And then we must overcome, and endure to the end, serving and obeying God and keeping His commandments, growing in love and the fruits of His Spirit (Gal.5:22-23), till the process is perfected, until we reach "ripeness" and spiritual "maturity" so we are ready to be "harvested" into God's Kingdom! Reproduction of the family of God both begins and ends IN CHRIST! The "mem" is closed, meaning not only was He born of a virgin, with a closed womb, but that none other will be born of God in exactly the same way He was -- begotten of the Spirit of God the Father in the womb of a woman (compare Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18-23).
All others must come to God through Him! He alone is the Saviour, whose name is YESHUA (Matt.1:20-21). "He shall save his people from their sins" (same verse). "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Jesus said, "I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that more abundantly" (John 10:7-10). Jesus alone is Saviour and Redeemer. As Peter and John announced in the book of Acts, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Are you ready to get to know the one and only Messiah?
Why is the Arian controversy in quotes?
Adam Clarke is not the top biblical scholar in the world that you should mention him.
I'm going to ask that you please use BIBLICAL VERSES to make your point since I could post scholars that disagree with you.
And the above history as to 1 John 5:7 is so complicated and you're making it simple to prove your point.
I'd say that the Trinity could be seen in both the OT and the NT even without this verse.
Also, the church is being split down the middle with this entire argument regarding who or what Jesus is.
This was taken care of at Nicea, wasn't it? Are we to have another council? We still don't know who Jesus is after 2,000 years of study?
In English all the above verses
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Colossians 2:9
the word GODHEAD is used.
In Latin-translated bibles the term used is DIVINITY.
So we'd have to stop and see what the GODHEAD means.
Johann!@#
Member
Already explained via Bullinger.
I'm finding your posts to be very confusing...
Johann!@# asked if you're saying that Jesus was created.
You answered him:
NO SIR, EVEN FROM THE BEGINNING.
Post no. 18
First, what does EVEN FROM THE BEGINNING mean?
Second, how could you answer this when you posted the following which is highlighted above by me:
Christ is FIRST in every respect over all God's Creation -- first to be created, first in time order,
and
He "is the BEGINNING of the creation of God"! Thus He tells them right up front that He was the "firstfruits," the "firstborn" of ALL God's Creative works of old -- and that therefore He Himself has a beginning, an origin, in and from the Father!
Please clarify what you're saying.
I don't read Bullinger.
Johann!@#
Member
Me neither-but his Appendixes is helpful.
J.
Johann!@#
Member
Absolutely not. But I am not here to start an argument.
Excuse me for saying this Johann, but I believe you should then not be supporting them with likes.
I do hope they make their statements very clear because it sounds to me that they are saying Jesus was created.
The reason for the Theology Forum is to discuss serious theological matters and to back up our beliefs with biblical verses.
This is a very important topic which is splitting the church right now.
There is no reason for this since this matter was already settled way back in the year 325AD at the Council of Nicaea.
Why drudge up the dirty pool again??
Do you have those verses from the OT saved so that you could post them again?
I wanted to copy them to a file and I can't find them...