Bible Study 2 John Study

[Nathan]

Ok. So here is the deal. Most know where I stand on a lot of topics. But I want some thoughts on what others think of 2 John. I know what I believe, and it seems rather obvious to me, but I want to read what others think about it also.

The "church" I go to is going through the letters of John. We covered 3 John first, and this Sunday we are covering 2 John. I was happy with the study last week, I believe people saw some things they had never seen before. But with 2 John I am thinking this week will be different.

See, I attend a predominantly "law free" 'church'. But I more than believe, I know, that God has me there for a reason. Most of you have read my previous threads and know what I acknowledge about the law. But it seems that dear John here has a soft spot for it himself. So I am really curious how the small group I meet with is going to handle this.

So I want to read some peoples ideas of what I might hear there this weekend. I am quite comfortable myself in my beliefs, but I want to read others just to get a 'feel' for the different thoughts that might come forth.

So what say you? Its only 13 verses long. Not a hard read by any means. There is not a lot of different things that John discusses here. If this letter was sent to you, what would your thoughts be?

2Jo 1:1-13 The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth, because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:

Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love.

I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady--not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning--that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink. Instead I hope to come to you and talk face to face, so that our joy may be complete. The children of your elect sister greet you.

 

[Nathan]

Here are a couple of different "modern" translations. I can see that from them there is even a differing of opinions of wording and phrasing used.

Amplified Bible
THE ELDERLY elder [of the church addresses this letter] to the elect (chosen) lady (Cyria) and her children, whom I truly love--and not only I but also all who are [progressively] learning to recognize and know and understand the Truth--Because of the Truth which lives and stays on in our hearts and will be with us forever:

Grace (spiritual blessing), mercy, and [soul] peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ (the Messiah), the Father's Son, in all sincerity (truth) and love.

I was greatly delighted to find some of your children walking (living) in [the] Truth, just as we have been commanded by the Father [Himself].

And now I beg you, lady (Cyria), not as if I were issuing a new charge (injunction or command), but [simply recalling to your mind] the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. And what this love consists in is this: that we live and walk in accordance with and guided by His commandments (His orders, ordinances, precepts, teaching). This is the commandment, as you have heard from the beginning, that you continue to walk in love [guided by it and following it].

For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form. Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist. Look to yourselves (take care) that you may not lose (throw away or destroy) all that we and you have labored for, but that you may [persevere until you] win and receive back a perfect reward [in full].

Anyone who runs on ahead [of God] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ [who is not content with what He taught] does not have God; but he who continues to live in the doctrine (teaching) of Christ [does have God], he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine [is disloyal to what Jesus Christ taught], do not receive him [do not accept him, do not welcome or admit him] into [your] house or bid him Godspeed or give him any encouragement. For he who wishes him success [who encourages him, wishing him Godspeed] is a partaker in his evil doings.

12I have many things to write to you, but I prefer not to do so with paper and ink; I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete. The children of your elect (chosen) sister wish to be remembered to you. Amen (so be it).

Contrasted with;

New Living Translation
This letter is from John the Elder. It is written to the chosen lady and to her children, whom I love in the truth, as does everyone else who knows God's truth--the truth that lives in us and will be in our hearts forever.

May grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God our Father and from Jesus Christ his Son, be with us who live in truth and love.

How happy I was to meet some of your children and find them living in the truth, just as we have been commanded by the Father. And now I want to urge you, dear lady, that we should love one another. This is not a new commandment, but one we had from the beginning. Love means doing what God has commanded us, and he has commanded us to love one another, just as you heard from the beginning.

Many deceivers have gone out into the world. They do not believe that Jesus Christ came to earth in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist. Watch out, so that you do not lose the prize for which we have been working so hard. Be diligent so that you will receive your full reward.

For if you wander beyond the teaching of Christ, you will not have fellowship with God. But if you continue in the teaching of Christ, you will have fellowship with both the Father and the Son. If someone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don't invite him into your house or encourage him in any way. Anyone who encourages him becomes a partner in his evil work.

Well, I have much more to say to you, but I don't want to say it in a letter. For I hope to visit you soon and to talk with you face to face. Then our joy will be complete. Greetings from the children of your sister, chosen by God.

These two alone you can see the stark contrast. A lot of it has to do with punctuation. I always feel that a look at Young's Literal Translation helps so here it is also.

2Jo 1:1 The Elder to the choice Kyria, and to her children, whom I love in truth, and not I only, but also all those having known the truth, because of the truth that is remaining in us, and with us shall be to the age, there shall be with you grace, kindness, peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

I rejoiced exceedingly that I have found of thy children walking in truth, even as a command we did receive from the Father; and now I beseech thee, Kyria, not as writing to thee a new command, but which we had from the beginning, that we may love one another, and this is the love, that we may walk according to His commands; this is the command, even as ye did hear from the beginning, that in it ye may walk, because many leading astray did enter into the world, who are not confessing Jesus Christ coming in flesh; this one is he who is leading astray, and the antichrist.

See to yourselves that ye may not lose the things that we wrought, but a full reward may receive; every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son; if any one doth come unto you, and this teaching doth not bear, receive him not into the house, and say not to him, `Hail!' or he who is saying to him, `Hail,' hath fellowship with his evil works.

Many things having to write to you, I did not intend through paper and ink, but I hope to come unto you, and speak mouth to mouth, that our joy may be full; salute thee do the children of thy choice sister. Amen.

Punctuation, again, is quite different. Its all interesting to say the least.

 

[Elijah674]

Hi, this is your study of John. So we will see how it ends up? And you know me huh? I find it not possible to stay in one 'penmans' Inspired work thinking that this is what is required of me. Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16's 'total' doctrine is even mentioned. (Isa. 28:8-10 'teaching doctrine')
And we see an ETERNAL CAUTION RED FLAGG below in your posted chapter! How can 'i' know that, that is so?? Because this is just a small part of the REQUIRED WHOLE ETERNAL Gospel... that even John penned in Rev. 14:6. (unless one thinks that this Everlasting is not Eternal as it is given here again by John)

And John tells of The 'DOCTRINE OF CHRIST' as a Test for ETERNAL TRUTH below also. Eternal Truth can be nothing less in any way than 1 Tim. 1:15-16 DOCUMENTING CHRIST AS IMMORTAL along with 1 Tim. 6:16. Having NO Starting point & NO Ending as in ETERNITY! And [ALL EALSE TAUGHT? Read on!]

And first, how can one leave out in any study the pen of it's N.T. start even? Matt. Mark Luke & John's many books. First, 2nd & third John +++ the Inspired pen of his in REVELATION?

But, let me give just this, and you tell me the answer to his remarks that you have here below??

'For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form. Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist. Look to yourselves (take care) that you may not lose (throw away or destroy) all that we and you have labored for, but that you may [persevere until you] win and receive back a perfect reward [in full].

Anyone who runs on ahead [of God] and does not abide [in the doctrine of Christ] [who is not content with what He taught] does not have God; but he who continues to live in the doctrine (teaching) of Christ [does have God], he has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this [[doctrine]] [is disloyal to what Jesus Christ taught], do not receive him [do not accept him, do not welcome or admit him] into [your] house or bid him Godspeed or give him any encouragement. For he who wishes him success [who encourages him, wishing him Godspeed] is a partaker in his evil doings.

And we see 'documented in postings' that Christ is a 'g'od!

And what do we do??? Who here pays any attention to John's Inspired pen? We don't even see any other ones [posting] against that satanic comment!

--Elijah

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The 1st and most obvious question that this passage brings to mind to me is, Who is the Chosen Lady? Is it representative of anm entire local assembly in the home a female saint or is the chosen laby in fact a person? It would appear more likely that she is in fact a person and a person with means; but who? Is she Jesus' mother, could she be Martha, or could she perhaps be John's sister-in-law?

 

[Nathan]

Hi, this is your study of John. So we will see how it ends up? And you know me huh? I find it not possible to stay in one 'penmans' Inspired work thinking that this is what is required of me. Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16's 'total' doctrine is even mentioned. (Isa. 28:8-10 'teaching doctrine')
And we see an ETERNAL CAUTION RED FLAGG below in your posted chapter! How can 'i' know that, that is so?? Because this is just a small part of the REQUIRED WHOLE ETERNAL Gospel... that even John penned in Rev. 14:6. (unless one thinks that this Everlasting is not Eternal as it is given here again by John)

And John tells of The 'DOCTRINE OF CHRIST' as a Test for ETERNAL TRUTH below also. Eternal Truth can be nothing less in any way than 1 Tim. 1:15-16 DOCUMENTING CHRIST AS IMMORTAL along with 1 Tim. 6:16. Having NO Starting point & NO Ending as in ETERNITY! And [ALL EALSE TAUGHT? Read on!]

And first, how can one leave out in any study the pen of it's N.T. start even? Matt. Mark Luke & John's many books. First, 2nd & third John +++ the Inspired pen of his in REVELATION?

But, let me give just this, and you tell me the answer to his remarks that you have here below??

'For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge (confess, admit) the coming of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) in bodily form. Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist. Look to yourselves (take care) that you may not lose (throw away or destroy) all that we and you have labored for, but that you may [persevere until you] win and receive back a perfect reward [in full].

Anyone who runs on ahead [of God] and does not abide [in the doctrine of Christ] [who is not content with what He taught] does not have God; but he who continues to live in the doctrine (teaching) of Christ [does have God], he has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this [[doctrine]] [is disloyal to what Jesus Christ taught], do not receive him [do not accept him, do not welcome or admit him] into [your] house or bid him Godspeed or give him any encouragement. For he who wishes him success [who encourages him, wishing him Godspeed] is a partaker in his evil doings.

And we see 'documented in postings' that Christ is a 'g'od!

And what do we do??? Who here pays any attention to John's Inspired pen? We don't even see any other ones [posting] against that satanic comment!

--Elijah

Personally, I think you have done quite well of pointing out the false post. What more could be added to it?

So I guess one needs to know what the "doctrine of Christ" is huh?

 

[Nathan]

The 1st and most obvious question that this passage brings to mind to me is, Who is the Chosen Lady? Is it representative of anm entire local assembly in the home a female saint or is the chosen laby in fact a person? It would appear more likely that she is in fact a person and a person with means; but who? Is she Jesus' mother, could she be Martha, or could she perhaps be John's sister-in-law?

I am not sure that it would be my first question. Not that it is not important, but the fact is that who ever she is, she is not the topic of the letter. I think that the topic of the letter transcends time and person. Unless it was a specific thing the person writing the letter wanted the other one to do.

But John is talking about the ones he see's "walking in the truth". And after that He sates something about that "truth". He states that they were doing so just as the Father had commanded them.

So to me, the obvious question is what "truth" is he speaking of?

Why do I ask that? Because, most of the time we only think of this truth as "love". But the blatant fact is that John follows up his first statement of walking in the truth with a reminder to her to walk in love.

So is he saying that he found some of her "children" walking in love, and now he is reminding her to do so also? But that kind of seems odd, because it seems more along the lines of his previous letter, 1 John, where he speaks of children as the ones who follow in the "way". So why would he be reminding her as such if her "children" are clearly doing as she is doing?

I have to contemplate the four statements put back to back.

2Jo 1:4-6 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

It seems that John defines what "love" is for us. And because John starts with acknowledging the "Father" as such, it only makes logical sense that the "His" in 'His commandments', is the Father.

To me it completely just jumps out that the 'truth' spoken of first that the children are 'walking' in, is the same thing he states what love "is"; "we walk according to His commandments". The commandment(singular), is love; the commandments(plural) are the 'truth'.

Am I the only one seeing this? No matter what translation you use, it states the same thing. Unless, of course, you use one of those paraphrase translations that are more like a commentary than a actual translation from Greek to English.

 

[Nathan]

Now the reason why I say all of this is of course what he follows up these statements with.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

This goes along the same lines that Elijah is speaking of that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And that He came in the flesh, not that He was just "born" as of not being before in time and eternity the way He is now.

So in other words, Jesus Christ, stripped Himself of His glory, came to us in flesh, lived among us, and then died and now has put back on His immortality.

So that dictates that He was not this "new" being, but rather the incarnation of the eternal person He is. And that would dictate that these imposter's John is speaking of need to, for some reason, make it to where He was just a "thought" created by God before, and then was born like a regular human and then 'transformed' into a eternal being. Thats a mouthful, it might take some re-reading to understand my mind there. sorry.

Who ever these imposter's are, they are speaking lies about His coming in the flesh, and we see something else about them. They "trespass" or in other words, go outside the 'bounds' of the teachings of Christ. They 'go on ahead' when the sign says "No Trespassing". See what I mean?

So I guess it is imperative to realize just what the "doctrine" of Christ is in order to fully comprehend the entirety of this letter.

 

[Elijah674]

--The Doctrine of Christ--

Acts 7 New Testament

[30] And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
[31] When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,
[32] Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abrham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
....
[37] This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
[38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness [with the angel] which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

1 Cor. 10 New Testament

[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Nehemiah 10

[5] Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.
[6] Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.(and who did Stephen & Paul document this to be? And the first four commandments with Worship or one was lawbreaking! (and teaching that Christ is a created angel is not the Doctrine of Christ, but is Blasphemy that John WARNED Against!) Even read Rev. 22:8-9 for who ONLY is to be Worshiped! But read on.

[7] Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
.....
[11] And thou didst divide the sea before them, so that they went through the midst of the sea on the dry land; and their persecutors thou threwest into the deeps, as a stone into the mighty waters.
[12] Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.
[13] Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
[14] And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:
[15] And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and promisedst them that they should go in to possess the land which thou hadst sworn to give them.
[16] But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments,
[17] And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
.....
[21] Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.

OK: Lets just close this for now at least? But take note of Gen. 1:26 while building on the Word of God in Their Immortality & ETERNAL GOSPEL as in the Doctrine of Christ! Here we see two with an image that we were created after. ('our likeness') Now notice..

Exod. 33

[9] And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.
[10] And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.
[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
....
[18] And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. (REMEMBER that we are created in the image of God, and take note of this Inspiration!)
[19] And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

[20] And he said, Thou canst not see [my face:] for there shall no man see me, and live. (Did you find God with a FACE?)
[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with [my hand] while I pass by:
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt [see my back parts:] but my face shall not be seen.

If one believes God, He just DOCUMENTED that Christ God & Jehovah God have an image with a face, an hand + Their Immortal back parts! (And the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost God will need to be found later. But when He Inspires that God is a Spirit, it is speaking of Himself who has NO IMAGE!)

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

OK: Gen. 1 has the Holy Spirit ACTIVE IN CREATION! And when Adam sinned the Plan Of Salvation needed to be brought into motion! Christ God came limited in Power as satan took over Adams lost domain of earth. (see Matt. 4:9) The O.T. has Christ God limited to only one location.

After the consummation & accepting of Christ as man by the Godhead, the Holy Spirit was again presenting Christ omnipresent. He (the Holy Spirit) had one main mission still, and that was to uplift Christ, Act. 4:12! (and not to testify of Himself)

Now again back to John's pen! Note first the Condition of having the Born Again New Life! First see Acts 5:32
for the Conditional starting point of Salvation. Now note John in...
John 14
[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you [another] Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (again Conditional! Acts 5:32 + John 3:3!)
....
[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, [he it is that loveth me]: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (read verse 23-24 also)

It is kind of hard to miss that, huh Nate? And again the Doctrine of Christ cannot miss the [Total Eternal Godhead]. Jehovah & Christ God with an Eternal Image, and the Holy Spirit God which Is the Holy Ghost & Holy Spirit God.

And John also penned...
in the same book & chapter Christ's [[ETERNAL WORDS]]!

[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
[24] [He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:] and the word which ye hear [is not mine,] but the Father's which sent me. (in fact, they hop skip & jump all over the babbling place!)

[25] These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, [he] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

----Elijah

 

[Wings]

Hi there,

Galatians 2:9
'And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me,
they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship;
that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.'


We can see from this verse that John was deemed by Paul to be a 'pillar' of the Church at Jerusalem, and that his ministry was
'to the circumcision', or to 'Israel'. His ministry was among believers which primarily came from Israel, 'the remnant' that were saved during the Acts period. Including those Gentile believers who were grafted into the Olive tree of Israel, and who comprised - 'the Israel of God' (Gal.6:16); during the period when the door was still open to Israel to repent and be restored. This ended at the end of the Acts (ch.28) with Israel being (temporarily) laid aside in unbelief.

So it is not surprising if, when talking to his 'flock', he should be talking in terms of the law should it?

In Christ Jesus
Wings

 

[Nathan]

Hi there,

Galatians 2:9
'And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me,
they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship;
that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.'


We can see from this verse that John was deemed by Paul to be a 'pillar' of the Church at Jerusalem, and that his ministry was
'to the circumcision', or to 'Israel'. His ministry was among believers which primarily came from Israel, 'the remnant' that were saved during the Acts period. Including those Gentile believers who were grafted into the Olive tree of Israel, and who comprised - 'the Israel of God' (Gal.6:16); during the period when the door was still open to Israel to repent and be restored. This ended at the end of the Acts (ch.28) with Israel being (temporarily) laid aside in unbelief.

So it is not surprising if, when talking to his 'flock', he should be talking in terms of the law should it?

In Christ Jesus
Wings

No, it is not surprising. But that is to say then, that the church is somehow dealt with based on previous beliefs held by its members? That John is speaking to "Jewish" people, and therefore the law is important to them, but not to the "Gentile" people who are apart of the same body?

What this would have to cause us to do is go into the theology that goes contrary to Paul's teaching in Romans. We would have to have the notion that "Israel" is not a spiritual people, but rather a people after the flesh. What part of "ALL Israel" will be saved do we not understand?

I do not think that just because John was put at a particular place to minister, negates the fact that He understood what the doctrine of Christ was. And so far, in my reading, I have never run across a difference in doctrine based on nationality or physical flesh.

The church is the church. We are all one. There is no Jew, no Greek. Only one. Therefore we must conclude that the letter is of significance to all who walk according to the truth. And the doctrine spoken of, is for ALL believers in Christ.

 

[Wings]

No, it is not surprising. But that is to say then, that the church is somehow dealt with based on previous beliefs held by its members? That John is speaking to "Jewish" people, and therefore the law is important to them, but not to the "Gentile" people who are apart of the same body?

What this would have to cause us to do is go into the theology that goes contrary to Paul's teaching in Romans. We would have to have the notion that "Israel" is not a spiritual people, but rather a people after the flesh. What part of "ALL Israel" will be saved do we not understand?

I do not think that just because John was put at a particular place to minister, negates the fact that He understood what the doctrine of Christ was. And so far, in my reading, I have never run across a difference in doctrine based on nationality or physical flesh.

The church is the church. We are all one. There is no Jew, no Greek. Only one. Therefore we must conclude that the letter is of significance to all who walk according to the truth. And the doctrine spoken of, is for ALL believers in Christ.

Hi Nathan,

All Scripture is 'for' us, but not all Scripture is about us.

You have brought several points up for consideration in relation to 2 John and my previous response to you, which will take us away from the subject at hand if pursued I feel.

Maybe at another time Nathan.

We have been told quite clearly elsewhere is Scripture that as far as the Church which is His Body of which He is the 'Head' is concerned, the law has no place. For we are a 'new creation' - 'in Christ', by God's grace, 'walk in the Spirit', and are 'Complete in Christ'.

We have been brought into a liberty in Christ, where the flesh counts for nothing at all, including it's 'works'. We have no confidence in the flesh, for all is of Christ.

PRAISE GOD!

The church is the church. We are all one. There is no Jew, no Greek. Only one. Therefore we must conclude that the letter is of significance to all who walk according to the truth. And the doctrine spoken of, is for ALL believers in Christ.

Your question was concerning the letter of John, and the time of writing has to be taken into consideration, as well as it's contents, including to whom it was intended. All of these factors determine what application can be made to ourselves.

* Many letters come through my door Nathan, but not all are addressed to me, they may be addressed to another member of the family and have information which has an application of benefit to all the members of the family, yet also contain detail which has an applicable suited only to the one whose address is on the envelope. This is where it is necessary to take into account the words of 2 Timothy 2:15.

In Christ
Wings


PS:
If any part of Scripture appears to contradict 'Truth' which applies to our calling,
then the reason for that apparent contradiction needs to be discovered,
and not the Truth altered to include the contradiction, in order to make - 'all fit all'.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,

All Scripture is 'for' us, but not all Scripture is about us.

You have brought several points up for consideration in relation to 2 John and my previous response to you, which will take us away from the subject at hand if pursued I feel.

Maybe at another time Nathan.

We have been told quite clearly elsewhere is Scripture that as far as the Church which is His Body of which He is the 'Head' is concerned, the law has no place. For we are a 'new creation' - 'in Christ', by God's grace, 'walk in the Spirit', and are 'Complete in Christ'.

We have been brought into a liberty in Christ, where the flesh counts for nothing at all, including it's 'works'. We have no confidence in the flesh, for all is of Christ.

PRAISE GOD!



Your question was concerning the letter of John, and the time of writing has to be taken into consideration, as well as it's contents, including to whom it was intended. All of these factors determine what application can be made to ourselves.

* Many letters come through my door Nathan, but not all are addressed to me, they may be addressed to another member of the family and have information which has an application of benefit to all the members of the family, yet also contain detail which has an applicable suited only to the one whose address is on the envelope. This is where it is necessary to take into account the words of 2 Timothy 2:15.

In Christ
Wings


PS:
If any part of Scripture appears to contradict 'Truth' which applies to our calling,
then the reason for that apparent contradiction needs to be discovered,
and not the Truth altered to include the contradiction, in order to make - 'all fit all'.

Thats the whole point. We are created new IN Christ. I would not say that I have seen anything that says the law has "no place". In fact, you will find the opposite in several different places.

We have turned the Messiah into a bucket of paint that is used to 'cover' all sorts of things, written and done. But the fact is the "liberty" you and the Bible speaks of is freedom from sin. Who says the law is in the flesh? I do not understand when Jeremiah prophesied of the "new" covenant, and when Hebrews reiterates it, we miss the point that the law has now been written on our hearts.

So yes, the letter has some "law" overtones. But this letter is about the full, all inclusive, truth. It transcends people and nationality, time and distance, it is the same truth today as it was back then. So even though its not a letter addressed to "nathan" ;) or "wings", truth is truth and we should use this letter as a way to understand the full meaning of the truth. Otherwise we have just 1/2 truths. ;)

If we were to take this approach for everything, then the letters that address the "law" in the way you think they address it would be for them and not for you. You are not going to find any books, or any letters address to either of us. So a little reasoning has to go a long way. Sure, if in the letter Paul tells timothy to bring his coat and some books, I am not going to all of a sudden grab a coat and some books looking for Paul.

But if John is speaking to someone and tells about the "truth", just as it was received from the Father, then I am going to perk up my ears and listen. There is something to be learned from this letter.

 

[Wings]

Thats the whole point. We are created new IN Christ. I would not say that I have seen anything that says the law has "no place". In fact, you will find the opposite in several different places.

We have turned the Messiah into a bucket of paint that is used to 'cover' all sorts of things, written and done. But the fact is the "liberty" you and the Bible speaks of is freedom from sin. Who says the law is in the flesh? I do not understand when Jeremiah prophesied of the "new" covenant, and when Hebrews reiterates it, we miss the point that the law has now been written on our hearts.

So yes, the letter has some "law" overtones. But this letter is about the full, all inclusive, truth. It transcends people and nationality, time and distance, it is the same truth today as it was back then. So even though its not a letter addressed to "nathan" ;) or "wings", truth is truth and we should use this letter as a way to understand the full meaning of the truth. Otherwise we have just 1/2 truths. ;)

If we were to take this approach for everything, then the letters that address the "law" in the way you think they address it would be for them and not for you. You are not going to find any books, or any letters address to either of us. So a little reasoning has to go a long way. Sure, if in the letter Paul tells timothy to bring his coat and some books, I am not going to all of a sudden grab a coat and some books looking for Paul.

But if John is speaking to someone and tells about the "truth", just as it was received from the Father, then I am going to perk up my ears and listen. There is something to be learned from this letter.

Hi Nathan,

When I say that we are a new creation, I speak in relation to the Church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all of Ephesians chapter one, not in terms of the individual believer. This company is a new creation distinct from what went before. It was revealed to Paul while in prison in Rome, and made known via the epistles written during his confinement. Namely, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

That revelation concernes this Church and it's administration, following the fracture caused by the setting aside of Israel at the end of the Acts period, and the effect upon the remnant of believing Jews and grafted-in Gentiles that resulted. The new covenant is set aside also until Israel (now 'Loammi') are once more 'the people of God'.

This Church is a newly created company, in which the Jew had no prior place of privilage, and in which the Gentile is not 'grafted-in', but both believing Jew and Gentile are 'one joint body' (in Spirit) 'in Christ' their 'Head'.

This company are not under the new covenant made with Israel, because not part of Israel as a nation. Therefore not subject to the laws of the covenant either old or new. The knowledge of this new creation was not made known previously, but was hid in God since the beginning of the world (Eph. 3:9), and made known to the Apostle Paul by revelation.

So, yes I can know what applies to me, as a member of this Church. There is no guess work involved, one simply has to 'rightly divide the Word of Truth'.

In Christ
Wings

 

[Elijah674]

Hi Nathan,

When I say that we are a new creation, I speak in relation to the Church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all of Ephesians chapter one, not in terms of the individual believer. This company is a new creation distinct from what went before. It was revealed to Paul while in prison in Rome, and made known via the epistles written during his confinement. Namely, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

That revelation concernes this Church and it's administration, following the fracture caused by the setting aside of Israel at the end of the Acts period, and the effect upon the remnant of believing Jews and grafted-in Gentiles that resulted. The new covenant is set aside also until Israel (now 'Loammi') are once more 'the people of God'.

This Church is a newly created company, in which the Jew had no prior place of privilage, and in which the Gentile is not 'grafted-in', but both believing Jew and Gentile are 'one joint body' (in Spirit) 'in Christ' their 'Head'.

This company are not under the new covenant made with Israel, because not part of Israel as a nation. Therefore not subject to the laws of the covenant either old or new. The knowledge of this new creation was not made known previously, but was hid in God since the beginning of the world (Eph. 3:9), and made known to the Apostle Paul by revelation.

So, yes I can know what applies to me, as a member of this Church. There is no guess work involved, one simply has to 'rightly divide the Word of Truth'.

In Christ
Wings

No guess work wings. Just an CLEAR ANSWER. OK?? Are you a Jehovah or an ex/Jehova wittness? You do say..
'So, yes I can know what applies to me, as a member of this Church. There is no guess work involved, one simply has to 'rightly divide the Word of Truth'.'

What church is that? See Matt. 10:32-33 for 'timid' CLEAR??? Requirements Forum.

--Elijah

PS: And forum, do we usally find a coupling of them traveling around together?

 

[Wings]

No guess work wings. Just an CLEAR ANSWER. OK?? Are you a Jehovah or an ex/Jehova wittness? You do say..
'So, yes I can know what applies to me, as a member of this Church. There is no guess work involved, one simply has to 'rightly divide the Word of Truth'.'

What church is that? See Matt. 10:32-33 for 'timid' CLEAR??? Requirements Forum.

--Elijah

PS: And forum, do we usally find a coupling of them traveling around together?

Hi Elijah674,

I do not belong to a Church or organisation of man's devising. I belong to 'the Church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all', of which Christ is 'the Head.' Which is described and administered in Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 2 Timothy and Titus. I believe that I am 'accepted in the Beloved', and made 'complete in Him'.

* In this Church there is:- ' ... one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:4-6)

Thank you for asking Elijah674.

In Christ my Head
Wings

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I think that the topic of the letter transcends time and person. Unless it was a specific thing the person writing the letter wanted the other one to do.

John is talking about the ones he see's "walking in the truth"... He states that they were doing so just as the Father had commanded them.

So to me, the obvious question is what "truth" is he speaking of?

I at least at this point believe that focusing on the word 'commandment' too much can lead to a misapplication of the text because we as christians have been conditioned to equate 'commandments' with the ten words of the covenant between national Israel and God made at Sinai.
From the entirety of context, I am persuaded that the "truth" in question has to do with Jesus of Nazareth being the Christ. That is the truth that established the "chosen lady" and her children and it was that truth that was being manipulated and spoken against by those saying the Christ did not come in the flesh.
It seems that John is saying that Anointed Jesus is truth and the commandment or precept is love.

 

[Jake]

I at least at this point believe that focusing on the word 'commandment' too much can lead to a misapplication of the text because we as christians have been conditioned to equate 'commandments' with the ten words of the covenant between national Israel and God made at Sinai.
From the entirety of context, I am persuaded that the "truth" in question has to do with Jesus of Nazareth being the Christ. That is the truth that established the "chosen lady" and her children and it was that truth that was being manipulated and spoken against by those saying the Christ did not come in the flesh.
It seems that John is saying that Anointed Jesus is truth and the commandment or precept is love.

Yes, I agree Tot.

2 John 1:1 The elder, To the lady chosen by God and to her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth— 2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

2 John 1:1 sets the subject for the entire section, the truth is that Jesus Christ is our Savior, who died and was resurrected and now lives in us. The truth lives in us and will be with us forever.

John is describing who Christ is in us and how others are denying the truth of who He is. Jesus=Truth=in us=we walk in Him (Truth). And in order to do so, we obey His commandment of walking in love, which is the commandment given to us through the new covenant.

Any other reading into 2 John is adding to what John is saying, we forget that John was ALL about love, all of his books resound with love. Why? Because that is what Jesus commanded of us, to love the Lord with all of our heart, mind and soul and to love thy neighbor as yourself. John is continuing to preach that commandment throughout all of his letters.

Nowhere in this book or anywhere else did John speak of following the written law given to the Israelites. Only to love.

 

[Elijah674]

You are close as 'i' see it to understanding some of John's penned Words?;) The Theme of the 'God Is Love' is not pertaining to us, but God! It was His [ETERNAL] Moral MAKEUP that has been given to us on CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE to the COMPLETE GODHEAD COVENANT REQUIREMENT, not just a profession. Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 wants to find us MATURE! Nah.1:9 Purpose!

If one can kind of figure John's work out?? See 1 John 5:16-17 about his MATURE teaching one way or the other. You will see that THE LAW is still there with this WARNING!
But perhaps 'i' am just spinning my wheels with that huh? Yet, it was INSPIRED TRUTH that it was Paul who Peter said was 'hard to understand' & not John, huh?? 2 Peter 3:15-17

And the LETTER or 'EPISTLE' of Christ is His Covenant Law To us! 2 Cor. 3:3 And ALL [mankind] are free to obey or dis/obey it, from Their first of creation (Heb. twice stated other worlds) on through Eternity!

--Elijah

 

[Jake]

John 1:4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

I am not simply close, I am spot on.