Bible Study 2 John Study

[Theofilus]

Nowhere in this book or anywhere else did John speak of following the written law given to the Israelites. Only to love.

True love and following the "written law" are the same thing. If you love your neighbor, then you won't steal from him, commit adultery with his wife, kill him or any of the other things God's commandments tell us not to do. You will also help him and do good deeds toward him, as the law commands us to. There is no conflict between love and the law.

 

[Jake]

True love and following the "written law" are the same thing. If you love your neighbor, then you won't steal from him, commit adultery with his wife, kill him or any of the other things God's commandments tell us not to do. You will also help him and do good deeds toward him, as the law commands us to. There is no conflict between love and the law.

That's right, when we love as we are commanded to do, everything else falls into place and we will not do those things. That is why the law was fulfilled in Christ and we are to love, we have freedom in Christ.

Why would we want to sin when we have Christ in us? Christ is our law now.

Edited to add:
True love and the "written law" are not the same thing, we were never given the "written law". This is where we are in the Spirit and not in the letter of the law or the letter of the law will kill you. We are in the spirit, not physical now.

 

[Nathan]

John 1:4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

I am not simply close, I am spot on.

Rockie, I think you are bypassing words in the passage in an effort to make your case. Look at the words you put in bold. Now look at the sentence right above it. (I underlined it for visual reference).

John clearly states what this command(singular) of Christ is. "This is love" John states. So obviously he see's a distinction between what someone says and feels, and what they actually do. Love is manifested in the obedience of walking in His commandments(plural).

John does not say;

"And this is His commandments: that we walk in obedience to love".

Look it up in the Greek. You will see the difference between the singular nature of one and the plural nature of the other. There is a difference.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,

When I say that we are a new creation, I speak in relation to the Church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all of Ephesians chapter one, not in terms of the individual believer. This company is a new creation distinct from what went before. It was revealed to Paul while in prison in Rome, and made known via the epistles written during his confinement. Namely, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

That revelation concernes this Church and it's administration, following the fracture caused by the setting aside of Israel at the end of the Acts period, and the effect upon the remnant of believing Jews and grafted-in Gentiles that resulted. The new covenant is set aside also until Israel (now 'Loammi') are once more 'the people of God'.

This Church is a newly created company, in which the Jew had no prior place of privilage, and in which the Gentile is not 'grafted-in', but both believing Jew and Gentile are 'one joint body' (in Spirit) 'in Christ' their 'Head'.

This company are not under the new covenant made with Israel, because not part of Israel as a nation. Therefore not subject to the laws of the covenant either old or new. The knowledge of this new creation was not made known previously, but was hid in God since the beginning of the world (Eph. 3:9), and made known to the Apostle Paul by revelation.

So, yes I can know what applies to me, as a member of this Church. There is no guess work involved, one simply has to 'rightly divide the Word of Truth'.

In Christ
Wings

The church is made up of the ones who are 'called out'. Yes, it is a "new" thing in so far as in transcend nationality and privileged, it goes beyond the bounds of the physical into the realm of the spiritual. It IS spiritual Israel. This is precisely understood with the enacting of the new covenant of the law written on the heart instead of on paper. Its spiritual compared to the original physical.

But the point is, He is the same God. Jesus is the same Lord. The same one who was with physical Israel, is now with spiritual Israel. The truth is that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the embodiment of the one who is from everlasting who was said to soon come and take on human flesh.

The "root" is the same, it has always been the same. When God 'testified' of who He is on the Mountain, He was not testifying of who He was, or who He was going to be for a short time. It was His testament of who His is from everlasting. Now, by nature the Jew has a 'grasp' of this and therefore grow naturally in Christ. We, who are wild by nature are grafted in to the same root.

We are not under the same covenant made with physical Israel. Right. But we are under the same covenant made with spiritual Israel, and the Creator of that covenant is the same God. And the King of that covenant is the same Lord.

We are not under the same laws as them, to follow them like they did, in the flesh. We are under the law written on our heart. The same God bears witness of that law. So whats the difference? On how its takes place. The law given to physical Israel was given in the flesh. It was to show that flesh is weak and CANNOT obey it. They were not spiritual. But now, the law has been given in the Spirit, and the Spirit CAN obey it.

Paul just simply states that those seeking to obey the law in the flesh without the Spirit will fail. But, on the flip side, those who in the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh WILL fulfill the law. And how do we know this? By love. When we are walking according to the law written on our heart we will love. If there are some things in our life wrong, its a good indication that we are not walking in love. This is the idea of walking in truth. Those who walk in truth come to the light, God's Word, and examine their deeds as it relates to the law written on their heart.

This is why most do not want the law. To them they walk in darkness, not light, and therefore they just want their own light of self-righteousness called "love".

 

[Nathan]

That's right, when we love as we are commanded to do, everything else falls into place and we will not do those things. That is why the law was fulfilled in Christ and we are to love, we have freedom in Christ.

Why would we want to sin when we have Christ in us? Christ is our law now.

Edited to add:
True love and the "written law" are not the same thing, we were never given the "written law". This is where we are in the Spirit and not in the letter of the law or the letter of the law will kill you. We are in the spirit, not physical now.

Thats not what John says. He specifically states that love IS walking according to His commandments. Not that walking according to His commandments is only love. Our freedom is from sin, not from a specific way of walking. Walking in the flesh we see the law as slavery. Why? Because the flesh cannot please God. But, in the Spirit we see the law as love. Why? Because it is written on our heart. We WANT to follow His law. So in doing so we are fulfilling the desires of our heart, we are truly loving Him and others. This can only be done in the spirit, it cannot happen in the flesh. But if it is happening in the spirit it will produce fruit that is easily seen by others.

Why would we want to sin? Because, the flesh is exceedingly sinful. It will die in that sin. We know when we are walking in the flesh or in the spirit because of the fruit being produced. If the fruit being produced is against the law of God then its a safe bet to say that we are walking in the flesh. But if it does not go against the law of God, then its a pretty good bet that we are walking in the spirit. Its not that we are "under" the law, but the fact that the law still stands until heaven and earth pass away as a testimony of who the True God is.

 

[Nathan]

True love and following the "written law" are the same thing. If you love your neighbor, then you won't steal from him, commit adultery with his wife, kill him or any of the other things God's commandments tell us not to do. You will also help him and do good deeds toward him, as the law commands us to. There is no conflict between love and the law.

There is conflict, but only in the flesh. You know this, so its not directed toward you. When we look with physical eyes, and hear with physical ears, the "flesh" around us is totally at war with the law and love.

The topic got brought up today in the small group I sit in on. Why so much division and 'anger' and disgust with people in the church today. When I tried to speak about the flesh and spirit, people did not want to hear. But yet they still sat there in almost dismay that they could not understand why and how we "love" someone when they have made us so angry.

Most want to just "love" from a distance. "I can love them, but that does not mean I have to like them".???

If we do not move out of the realm of the flesh into the spirit we will never understand what love truly is. And you will never be able to comprehend why people do not get along.

 

[Jake]

Remember the phrase "the term of His covenant" because look at what happened to it, it waxeth away.

Hebrews 8: 6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In regards to 2 John, what commandments was John speaking of, we should know and we do:

1 John 3:22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

How can a Sabbath keeper not take pride in keeping the Sabbath and we should not take pride in the flesh?


1 John 3:3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

and this is why Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and is the Sabbath, we do not take pride in it.

Keeping the Sabbath is also not one listed in Romans, in all the letters, not one of the apostles spoke of "keeping the 10" to the Gentiles, not one because our new commandment is to love, and keeping the Sabbath is not loving others. Loving others is the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 13: 9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Where is our commandment to keep the Sabbath day in this scripture? It's not, it is not existant in the New Covenant.

Jesus is Lord over us. It is His righteousness that bring us Home and not by the deeds of the law. He justifies us and thus we cannot be condemned for we are guiltless as Jesus Christ is Lord even over the sabbath.

We are to be witnesses of Jesus Christ, to declare the faith in Him, we are His and all to His glory.

 

[Theofilus]

That's right, when we love as we are commanded to do, everything else falls into place and we will not do those things. That is why the law was fulfilled in Christ and we are to love, we have freedom in Christ.

Why would we want to sin when we have Christ in us? Christ is our law now.

Edited to add:
True love and the "written law" are not the same thing, we were never given the "written law". This is where we are in the Spirit and not in the letter of the law or the letter of the law will kill you. We are in the spirit, not physical now.

Well... they are, and they aren't the same. You can keep the law without love, but you can't love without keeping the law. I can refrain from killing someone without necessarily loving him but, I can't love someone and murder him.

Maybe you mean something else by it, but when someone says "Christ is our law", We are in the spirit, not the letter" or talk about "freedom in Christ", it usually seems to be an excuse for not obeying what God clearly tells us to do. If we obey the spirit of the law, then we will also obey the letter of the law. The letter of the law tells us not to commit murder. Can we violate the letter by killing someone, and yet remain in the spirit of the law? The letter of the law tells us not to commit adultery. How can we have sex with someone else's wife, while still following the spirit of the law? It won't work. If we truely follow the spirit of the law, we will also obey the letter of the law.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Elijah674,

I do not belong to a Church or organisation of man's devising. I belong to 'the Church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all', of which Christ is 'the Head.' Which is described and administered in Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 2 Timothy and Titus. I believe that I am 'accepted in the Beloved', and made 'complete in Him'.

* In this Church there is:- ' ... one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:4-6)

Thank you for asking Elijah674.

In Christ my Head
Wings

Do you ever sin?

 

[Nathan]

How can a Sabbath keeper not take pride in keeping the Sabbath and we should not take pride in the flesh?


1 John 3:3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

and this is why Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and is the Sabbath, we do not take pride in it.

Keeping the Sabbath is also not one listed in Romans, in all the letters, not one of the apostles spoke of "keeping the 10" to the Gentiles, not one because our new commandment is to love, and keeping the Sabbath is not loving others. Loving others is the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 13: 9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Where is our commandment to keep the Sabbath day in this scripture? It's not, it is not existant in the New Covenant.

Jesus is Lord over us. It is His righteousness that bring us Home and not by the deeds of the law. He justifies us and thus we cannot be condemned for we are guiltless as Jesus Christ is Lord even over the sabbath.

We are to be witnesses of Jesus Christ, to declare the faith in Him, we are His and all to His glory.

Because he is not 'keeping' it according to his flesh. People take pride in their "love" all the time. There is no difference there. In fact, people have more pride in their 'non keeping' of the law than those who naturally do it out of love for God and faith in Christ.

If you do not see how they spoke of walking in the commandments of God, in the spirit, then your simply looking for how we do not have to, instead of looking to see what love really is. John makes it very clear in this letter, love IS to walk according to His commandments.

He states this also in 1john, and makes mention of it in his Gospel. And last but not least he records the proclamation of the Angel's proclamation to those who do not take the mark.

The Sabbath is, and will always be a literal day. Jesus made this very clear when He stated that none of the law would pass away until heaven and earth passed away. The law stands as it is. A testimony to who the True God is.

Do you ever sin Rockie?

 

[Elijah674]

Hi Elijah674,

I do not belong to a Church or organisation of man's devising. I belong to 'the Church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all', of which Christ is 'the Head.' Which is described and administered in Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 2 Timothy and Titus. I believe that I am 'accepted in the Beloved', and made 'complete in Him'.

* In this Church there is:- ' ... one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:4-6)

Thank you for asking Elijah674.

In Christ my Head
Wings

Elijah here:
OK, that answered 1/2 the questuin huh?;) But were you a member of the J.W. Kingdom Hall Church, was also asked if you care to answer?

 

[Jake]

Well... they are, and they aren't the same. You can keep the law without love, but you can't love without keeping the law. I can refrain from killing someone without necessarily loving him but, I can't love someone and murder him.

Maybe you mean something else by it, but when someone says "Christ is our law", We are in the spirit, not the letter" or talk about "freedom in Christ", it usually seems to be an excuse for not obeying what God clearly tells us to do. If we obey the spirit of the law, then we will also obey the letter of the law. The letter of the law tells us not to commit murder. Can we violate the letter by killing someone, and yet remain in the spirit of the law? The letter of the law tells us not to commit adultery. How can we have sex with someone else's wife, while still following the spirit of the law? It won't work. If we truely follow the spirit of the law, we will also obey the letter of the law.

Perfect love does not do those things, who lives in us? Is not the one living in us perfect? Do we live in the Spirit or do we live in the written law? We live in the Spirit and therefore we do have freedom but as Paul states, should we go on sinning? No, why would we want to.
No, being free in Christ, obeying His commandments of love, does not cause me to go out and want to commit adultery nor does it cause me to murder. I do not want to do something that Christ Himself would not do.

Galatians 2:20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Do you see what I am saying?
Perfect love casts out these things.

 

[Nathan]

Well... they are, and they aren't the same. You can keep the law without love, but you can't love without keeping the law. I can refrain from killing someone without necessarily loving him but, I can't love someone and murder him.

Maybe you mean something else by it, but when someone says "Christ is our law", We are in the spirit, not the letter" or talk about "freedom in Christ", it usually seems to be an excuse for not obeying what God clearly tells us to do. If we obey the spirit of the law, then we will also obey the letter of the law. The letter of the law tells us not to commit murder. Can we violate the letter by killing someone, and yet remain in the spirit of the law? The letter of the law tells us not to commit adultery. How can we have sex with someone else's wife, while still following the spirit of the law? It won't work. If we truely follow the spirit of the law, we will also obey the letter of the law.

That was the whole discussion today. How can "we" 'remain' angry at someone, but yet still love them. It was crazy, I had never seen anything like it before in that room. It was like they were all 'grinding their teeth' trying to figure out how to accomplish this. They went from one thing to another. One excuse to another. Well if this would have happened to you, you can love them, but that does not mean you will like them. Wow. There was some major conviction going on today.

But yet each time I spoke up about living in the spirit no one wanted to go that train of thought. In fact, it came to the point where they were agitated with me, and actually clarified the desire was to figure out how to love someone without being "all super spiritual" about it. Huh??

People want to walk in "love", but seriously do not want to have a "law" over them. There is a reason. Otherwise people would see the love of God in giving us the testimony of Himself, which shows us when we are walking contrary to love. But people want to make up their "own" idea of what love is. Its all about self-desire.

 

[Nathan]

Perfect love does not do those things, who lives in us? Is not the one living in us perfect? Do we live in the Spirit or do we live in the written law? We live in the Spirit and therefore we do have freedom but as Paul states, should we go on sinning? No, why would we want to.
No, being free in Christ, obeying His commandments of love, does not cause me to go out and want to commit adultery nor does it cause me to murder. I do not want to do something that Christ Himself would not do.

Galatians 2:20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Do you see what I am saying?
Perfect love casts out these things.

Perfect love casts out fear. Fear from what? Fear from the times that we do stumble and fall. We know that He loves us, and know which way is the right way. You will never find where love "casts out" the law; if that is what your saying.

 

[Jake]

Perfect love casts out fear. Fear from what? Fear from the times that we do stumble and fall. We know that He loves us, and know which way is the right way. You will never find where love "casts out" the law; if that is what your saying.

It takes away the fear some have of accepting that they do not need to hold the Sabbath day holy. We do not need to fear that because Christ is our Sabbath.

 

[Elijah674]

True love and following the "written law" are the same thing. If you love your neighbor, then you won't steal from him, commit adultery with his wife, kill him or any of the other things God's commandments tell us not to do. You will also help him and do good deeds toward him, as the law commands us to. There is no conflict between love and the law.

You have that exactly correct. But 'some' do not know what John penned in 1 John 2:4, huh?? And these LIARS as Inspiration has it ETERNALLY Stated could read on through to verse 8 and find that [some blind ones are still in DARKNESS!]

Some are just willfully so it seems!1 John 5:17 comes into play from Psalms 19:13's Presumption!

But thanks for the good post to the forum!

--Elijah

 

[Jake]

That was the whole discussion today. How can "we" 'remain' angry at someone, but yet still love them. It was crazy, I had never seen anything like it before in that room. It was like they were all 'grinding their teeth' trying to figure out how to accomplish this. They went from one thing to another. One excuse to another. Well if this would have happened to you, you can love them, but that does not mean you will like them. Wow. There was some major conviction going on today.

But yet each time I spoke up about living in the spirit no one wanted to go that train of thought. In fact, it came to the point where they were agitated with me, and actually clarified the desire was to figure out how to love someone without being "all super spiritual" about it. Huh??

People want to walk in "love", but seriously do not want to have a "law" over them. There is a reason. Otherwise people would see the love of God in giving us the testimony of Himself, which shows us when we are walking contrary to love. But people want to make up their "own" idea of what love is. Its all about self-desire.

It's really all about how we are no longer alive, but it is Christ living in us, it is about abandoning our own wills and doing the will of the Father. Jesus Christ is now His testimony, that is His witness, why is this so hard to see? Jesus is our witness, we keep our eyes on Jesus the perfector of our faith, something the old law could never do, but now we have a new and better way - JESUS CHRIST!

 

[Nathan]

It takes away the fear some have of accepting that they do not need to hold the Sabbath day holy. We do not need to fear that because Christ is our Sabbath.

But that is simply not Biblical Rockie. You will never see where Christ claimed He was the Sabbath day, and none of the NT writers ever said it either.

Its almost akin to saying that Christ is our honoring of our mother and father. Or Christ is our non murdering. Or that Christ is the Father?

How can He be one of the commands, but not all of them? That is 'changing' the original command, something that Christ Himself warned not to do.

Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Relaxes - lyō
1) to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened
a) bandages of the feet, the shoes,
b) of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony
c) of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married

2) to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free
a) of one bound up (swathed in bandages)
b) bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go

3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together
a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up
b) laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds
c) to annul, subvert
d) to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act
e) to declare unlawful
f) to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy
g) to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy
h) metaph., to overthrow, to do away with

 

[Nathan]

It's really all about how we are no longer alive, but it is Christ living in us, it is about abandoning our own wills and doing the will of the Father. Jesus Christ is now His testimony, that is His witness, why is this so hard to see? Jesus is our witness, we keep our eyes on Jesus the perfector of our faith, something the old law could never do, but now we have a new and better way - JESUS CHRIST!

Rockie, believe the words of Jesus.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.


Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.


Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


In complete context, Jesus is speaking of the ten commandments. There is no way around it. These are the words of Christ.

 

[Elijah674]

Perfect love casts out fear. Fear from what? Fear from the times that we do stumble and fall. We know that He loves us, and know which way is the right way. You will never find where love "casts out" the law; if that is what your saying.

Hey, lets see if we can make LAW simple. Ceasar has been given of God this privalige of law enforcement as read in Rom. 13's duty to man. So let's toss out this Caesar stuff as well? You know? we are not under Law! I am going down the highway 'not under the law' but obeying Caesar (and God)

And I am not under the Law, but am free MR. CAESAR!! So, I kick it up to 100 or so in the 35 mile an hour zone, (OK Rock, 80 miles an hour then?) and then say that I pass the state police guy at the 30 mile marker going into Greenville S.C. & when I get pulled over by this Baptist(;)) guy, he is told by me that there is no more UNDER THE LAW! And he says, well said just keep on with our Loving doctrine, huh?

Whatever? Eccl. 3:15 "I LOVE YOU LORD" Just not yor Rom. 13 Law & surely not YOUR 'JEWISH' ETERNAL SABBATH ONE! (that is what is hated Nate! Dan. 7:25)

--Elijah