Bible Study A study on the Sabbath

[cyberjosh]

Indeed Gentiles were commanded to 'observe' the Sabbath.

Exd 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,

Exd 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

In fact, it was the Children of God responsibility to teach this to the sojourner.

I am in no way trying to impose a guilt trip on you. I think this discussion can still bear fruit with the heat we are feeling.

I am at a loss now, however, where the "Ten Commandments" were classified as a covenant only between God and Israel. I understand that they were the ones that God entrusted with them, but not where He specifically stated they were only for them. In fact, it is a well known point that if one was to leave behind his family, country, and life and choose to follow the true and living God; then that person would have to submit to and "keep" the Law of God. A Gentile could indeed become a Jew.

Okay, so you do make a good point here that for Gentiles sojourning in Israel were to observe the Sabbath as much as the natives of Israel. However my point was that it was not a universal Gentile law, it was for Gentiles in your gates, and who was the 'your'? Israel, for the covenant was made with them. The Sinai covenant was specifically for Israel, for God called them out of the Land of Egypt and singled them out though they deserved no special treatment and made a covenant with them for his name sake. God makes clear how much he favored Israel over the other nations:

"3 For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
4 Since you were precious in My sight,
You have been honored,
And I have loved you;
Therefore I will give men for you,
And people for your life." (Isaiah 43:3-4)

Again when God was retelling Israel's history in the imagery of a young woman whom he betrothed He said:

"When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord GOD." (Ezekiel 16:8)

But later chastizes them, "You also committed harlotry with the Egyptians, your very fleshly neighbors, and increased your acts of harlotry to provoke Me to anger. Behold, therefore, I stretched out My hand against you, diminished your allotment, and gave you up to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior." (vs. 26-27)

He again is speaking specifically of Israel breaking His specific covenant with them. And God asks Israel: "Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?" (Deuteronomy 4:8). It is clear that this covenant is for Israel all throughout the OT. Romans touches on the fact that it was Israel who was bestowed the oracles of God (Romans 3:1) and to whom "belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises" (Romans 9:4). And speaking of temple services we know that did not carry on into the Church under the new covenant so how can we say that the full law is still in effect for the Church? Many believe that with eschatalogical promises for Israel in the end times (such as the end of Ezekiel which mentions sacrifices reinstituted, etc.) that God will have a special role for them specifically to carry out, even bringing other Gentile nations to God (this will be once Israel finally turns back to God though and the provokation to jealousy by blessing the Gentiles and the Church - which does however indeed contain some believing Jews - is completed, thus not applicable to this current age of the Church). Now however, apart from Israel's covenant, Abraham's covenant with God was made with 'Abram' while he was yet a Gentile and foresaw the blessing of all nations through him. I think we find that universality of covenant you are looking for in God's covenant with Abraham.

I would indeed like to discuss the covenental aspects of this with you further when I have time, as I think it is very important. I also will not say that I cannot learn anything, and exploring the relevance of the Sabbath for today I think would be a good and important thing. I just don't see the additional Sinai stipulations for Sabbath observance as being relevant anymore for Christians in the letter of actual observance (but certainly in principles). I will discuss this more with you later.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Sissy]

Now this is a very nice and simple approach to it. So now, why was it put as one of the ten commandments? We can "understand", in a manner of speaking, the reason for the other 9 commandments. What about the Sabbath puts it in the top tenth percentile of God's decree to a chosen, special people, called by His name and for His glory?

Well, not sure I can convey the thought in one post, but I'll try.
At least to give an idea of the direction I take.

I see all of scripture as Christ centered, not man centered.
And that includes the Sabbath.

As we just saw, God finished his work and then rested.

Compare that to Christ.

From the cross He cried out "It is finished".
And then He sat down at the right hand of the Father.

 

[Sam21]

The most frequent charge against Jesus was that He was a sabbath breaker. Jesus did in fact allow his disciples to break the letter of the sabbath because they gathered grain on the sabbath. Two things, Jesus said that he was LORD OF THE SABBATH(he was over the sabbath) and Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man and not man made for the sabbath. It is simple, the sabbath was a time for man to rest as God rested, when we are resting in the Lord of the sabbath we are keeping the sabbath. So christians who walk with Christ are keeping the sabbath,not by doing this and that in a physical way but by keeping faith in Jesus.

 

[Nathan]

All good posts! Now we are digging.

I see where you are coming from, and I come from that angle also in the sense that Israel was a specific group of people who had a specific relationship with the living God. However, Paul makes it clear that the basis of their relationship was not on anything other than Christ Himself. This is where I want to interject the astute truth that Sissy mentioned that all Scripture is Christ centered.

With that in mind, we also know that Christ is the fulfillment of the law. And we know that we are grafted onto the same tree that Israel is naturally apart of. And they were only broken off because of unbelief, not because they followed the law. It seems that the statement that Jesus made concerning the law being in effect is going unnoticed and not being expounded upon. I know that sometimes things can be hard to put together when we have two seemingly different truths that oppose each other. I myself, have no problem looking at two truths; the law is still in effect, and Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness, and then trying to understand the meaning of it all in spite of the differences.

That is where I am coming from, and why I appreciate the previous posts because it is starting to get deeper into the meaning behind the law. So here is the question that gets posed by Sam21's statement.

Is the Sabbath simply kept by 'believing' in Christ? Or is a faithful walk in Christ that fulfills the law through Christ? I would lean more towards the latter because 'belief' does not dictate anything but just head knowledge. But walking means that our faith is alive and true, not dead. So if we are walking in Christ does the Sabbath simply get fulfilled indirectly? Lets take murder for example. If we are walking in Christ can we hate or be angry with our brother? Is that not sin?

It is sin. How do we know its sin? The law tells us its sin. This is where I see the crossroads of different points of view culminate also. Its the viewpoint of the law that trips us all up and puts us at opposite sides of the room. Is it just a covenant thing? Paul makes it clear that by it comes the knowledge of sin. That transcends people groups. Once someone has the knowledge of the law it cannot be put off as nothing. And those who have never heard of it, when they by nature do those things, make it a law unto themselves.

Romans speaks very clearly to the "benefits" of 'doing' the things of the law. It never once speaks about the law as worthless, unneeded, or done away with as far as every day living is concerned. The only point that the law has no effect on is when it comes to our 'right standing' before God. Yes, I am using the word "law" a lot because the Sabbath is a part of that law. So, while I am specifically looking at the Sabbath, I have to take it as a whole. And the opposite is also true. When looking at the other things of the law, we must take the Sabbath with it also.

Here is where I am at now. A walk with Christ, loving Him and loving my fellow man, is fulfilling the entirety of the law. We know this to be true from our Lords own testimony.

Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.

Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

We don't bock at the idea that prayer and reading God's Word will draw us closer to Him do we? So why do we bock at the idea that observing the Sabbath in its original form, even pre-Sinai? Ok, so we don't all bock at it. But we do think it is not significant, or what we do is "change" it to another day. Why? We understand that it is not 'good' to be angry, or to look at another woman with lust. Why don't we give the same credence to observing the Sabbath? We do not try and change what Jesus said about adultery, murder, lying, loving God. Why do we change the Sabbath?

So thats where I am wanting to dig down too in this study. Is it just the precept behind the Sabbath, a "day" of rest, that is significant? Just like it is the precept of a pure heart toward not lusting after another woman and not just abstaining from direct physical contact? Or, are they inseparable?

What I mean is we would not sit back and think, "I am not going to lust after this woman, I am just going to be intimate with her". And we are not going to say, "I am not angry with this man, I am just going to kill him". We understand that the two go hand in hand. So why is it with the Sabbath, and the Sabbath alone, that we separate it?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Indeed Gentiles were commanded to 'observe' the Sabbath.

Exd 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,

Exd 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

In fact, it was the Children of God responsibility to teach this to the sojourner.

I am in no way trying to impose a guilt trip on you. I think this discussion can still bear fruit with the heat we are feeling.

I am at a loss now, however, where the "Ten Commandments" were classified as a covenant only between God and Israel. I understand that they were the ones that God entrusted with them, but not where He specifically stated they were only for them. In fact, it is a well known point that if one was to leave behind his family, country, and life and choose to follow the true and living God; then that person would have to submit to and "keep" the Law of God. A Gentile could indeed become a Jew.

Paul states it this way;

Rom 11:16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root [fn] of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

We were grafted in to them. Its not some "new" thing. Yes, there is a "new" covenant, which is better understood as a magnified way of how God deals with us now. But the root still stands as it has since the dawn of time. The Israelites were natural branches that grew from this root, and we were grafted into this root. The root did not just come about 2000 years ago.

Paul also says;

Rom 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them

Paul did not say that Christ is the end of the law for all things. Just He is the end of the law as it concerns righteousness.

Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

God entrusted Israel with these things. He has not abolished Israel, so that means that He has not abolished those things He gave them. So, therefore, it stands to reason that the Law is still in full effect. It will be till heaven and earth pass away. It will be till all things are accomplished. So what does it mean for us now? Why are we so quick to dismiss all of these things?

Paul is very pointed when he makes the remarkable statement;

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Think about it. And no I do not buy into the replacement theology. But just read it for what its worth. It specifically means that Israel is not just a physical lineage. If it were so, if it were just a physical thing, then how can some who are decedents of Israel not belong to Israel?

But we see the big picture. That Christ (the Root) is where ALL Israel comes from. They are "tame" Israel who are physical Israel because they have the Law, the worship, the glory, the adoption, and the promises. We are 'grafted' in to this "natural" Israel. So it stands to reason that whatever 'nourishment' they received from the root, we too would be receiving now.

Are you seeing the train of thought here? Christ is eternal. Out of Him came this 'chosen' people. A people who would be given all these things. They are dead things, except they receive renewal from that which supply's all life. Seeing how we are grafted into the very same root, not another plant, not a different plant, but the very same eternal root, then we receive the very same nourishment as they did. The root has not changed. And no where do we get any indication that all the branches that were given the Law and other things were the ones broken off.

In fact, the only reason why the 'natural' branches were broken off was because of unbelief. And Paul is very pointed in the fact that they would be naturally better off than us if they were to be grafted back on the root. We have no inclination to believe that they are broken off because they still hold to the law. In fact, it is professed as one of the things that makes them "natural" and the fact that we do not posses the Law as a thing that makes us "wild". They were broken off because they did not believe Jesus as the Christ. That is it.

Israel pursued the Law for the basis of righteousness. Some people say that the 'pursuance' of the law is a bad thing. Why? Paul, again, states it very clearly that the only reason why the pursuance of the law was bad is because it was not by faith. That in and of itself dictates that if they had pursued it on the basis of faith, which the patriarchs did, then they would have attained the righteousness that only comes through faith. It does not make the law null and void, it only makes the righteousness that people believed came from it null and void.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;

Rom 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Rom 9:33 as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

That Stone we all know as Christ. They did not obtain the righteousness ONLY because they did not pursue it by faith. NOT because they 'kept' the law of God. So. The question still begs to be answered. What nourishment came from the root and supplied the working of the law in the life of the natural branches? We understand that keeping the law does nothing for our righteousness, so what does it do?

Following this very interesting discourse in our utterly destitute state, and 'natural' Israel(who is classified as such because of all the things that have been given them by God), and the only reason why we were even grafted in was because of Gods mercy not because we "don't do some things"; after this Paul makes this "appeal";

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Think about it. It is us who are 'wild'. And Paul makes the statement that we should be transformed. Why do we so often consider belief in Jesus the Christ to be the end of the road? It is just the mere beginning of it. That is what 'attaches' us to the root. Then the transformation should begin to become like the 'natural' plant. And Israel, Israel from birth, will be more than capable of being grafted back in by simple belief in Jesus as the Christ.

So. What does this all have to do with the Sabbath? Much in every way! They were given this eternal law, this eternal knowledge of who God is and what He has done. Why should we not think twice about what the Sabbath is and what it is for just because we are Gentiles by nature? Are we not now apart of the same plant as Israel by nature?

This Sabbath issue has less to do with Israel vs. the nations (gentiles) than we have made it out to be. The WHOLE issue is about a COVENANT! God had a covenant with Israel (and as Nathan pointed out even a person of the nation could be considered as Israel if they decided to sojourn with the Israelites and be party to the covenant as well). This covenant is the issue because within it we see a requirement to keep the 7th day holy and outside of it, no such requirement exists (the same can be said about circumcision). Here's what we need to focus on in order to hopefully come to the right conclusion and agreement on this matter: Is THAT Covenant still applicable to ANYONE who has lived beyond the 1st century?

 

[Nathan]

This Sabbath issue has less to do with Israel vs. the nations (gentiles) than we have made it out to be. The WHOLE issue is about a COVENANT! God had a covenant with Israel (and as Nathan pointed out even a person of the nation could be considered as Israel if they decided to sojourn with the Israelites and be party to the covenant as well). This covenant is the issue because within it we see a requirement to keep the 7th day holy and outside of it, no such requirement exists (the same can be said about circumcision). Here's what we need to focus on in order to hopefully come to the right conclusion and agreement on this matter: Is THAT Covenant still applicable to ANYONE who has lived beyond the 1st century?

God created the covenant with Israel LONG before the Law was given.

Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,

And then reiterated it many years later.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

Gen 17:8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God."

Notice the word "everlasting". That means....forever. Unending. But, we know that the covenant was directed toward Christ. Paul makes this clear in Romans, when he speaks about seed and not seeds. That the covenant would be fulfilled in Christ. The "sign" of that covenant, the "working" of that covenant was NOT the Law, but circumcision. The Law came hundreds of years afterwards.

Exd 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Exd 2:25 God saw the people of Israel--and God knew.

Exd 6:2 God spoke to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD.

Exd 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.

Exd 6:4 I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they lived as sojourners.

Exd 6:5 Moreover, I have heard the groaning of the people of Israel whom the Egyptians hold as slaves, and I have remembered my covenant.

Exd 6:6 Say therefore to the people of Israel, 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment.

Exd 6:7 I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who has brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Exd 6:8 I will bring you into the land that I swore to give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. I will give it to you for a possession. I am the LORD.'"

Now. Where do we ever see God making a covenant with the children of Israel? He only speaks about the covenant He made with their fathers Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Even when He brings them to the mountain He speaks of the covenant He made with their fathers.

Exd 19:4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.

Exd 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;

It does not say "our" covenant. And no where will you find it saying that the Law was the covenant. Sissy has beautifully spoken of before what "keep" means, maybe we could dig that up again?

But what do we learn of the "Law" as it relates to an eternal covenant? We know that there was a "Book of the Covenant". But we also know that the Sabbath, in very specific manner, is labeled as a 'sign' of a covenant.

Exd 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.

Exd 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"

The Sabbath was a covenant in and of itself specifically. A sign. A forever sign. If God said forever, I have to believe it was forever. Ok, so then the question arises that it is meant for the 'people of Israel'. But what do we know, what have we been looking at? Not all people who come from fleshly descendants of Abraham are Israel. We also know that we are grafted into the same tree. We have not replaced Israel, we are a part of Israel now.

Ok. But we are a part of Spiritual Israel, not fleshly Israel. So do we make the distinction between fleshly and spiritual Sabbath here on this ground? Well pointed out that we know circumcision, as it relates to the flesh, is not ascribed to be a requirement that must be kept. But what does Paul even say about that?

Rom 2:25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.

Rom 2:26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Rom 2:27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.

Rom 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.

Rom 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

The Law and circumcision are only dropped off as far as any righteousness that can be gained from them. No where, not one place, will you find they are not to be done anymore. But the broader question is do we have to do them? Indeed that is a great question.

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

There are no if's, and's, or but's about this. Man is justified by faith with no regard to the law. But what does Paul state afterwards?

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

The law says "you must do this and that", faith says "you can do this and that". We do not murder another because we can now love our brother, not because we are withholding our hand because of what the law says. We do not commit adultery now because we find satisfaction in Christ to fulfill our desires, not because the law says we cannot. We do not steal because we know God owns everything, not because the law says not to.

The same is true in our relationship with God. We do not worship another god because we understand His profound love for us, not because the law says not to. We do not make a carved image of something else and worship it because we know our God cannot be made He is eternal, not because the law says not to. And we do not take the name of God in vain because it was by that name we are saved, not because the law says not too.

So again. Full circle. We know the Law, the 'ten words', the ten commandments are not a covenant in and of themselves. And we know that the law has never been made null and void. And we know that it is good. And we know that it transcends people groups because those who 'naturally' do them without having ever been given them, make it a law unto themselves.

So what about the Sabbath?

Is THAT Covenant still applicable to ANYONE who has lived beyond the 1st century?

Exd 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.

Exd 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"

How long is forever? But does that dictate that it is still a sign for the 'people' of Israel? For some it is. Undeniably, unless you can put a time limit on forever. Is it for all Israel? Only for those who do not count on it for righteousness. And who are those who do not count on it for righteousness? Those who believe that Jesus is the Christ. And what 'example' do we know of these who believe? That they are apart of the olive tree naturally. And who is grafted into the olive tree? We are, who are by nature Gentiles. Is there distinction between Jew and Gentile? No the same Lord is Lord over both making no distinction.

So, its not a matter of do we have to for me. Its a matter of why not? Could there possibly be a benefit to drawing closer to God, just like there is with prayer and study? Do any of you ever fast? Why do you do that? Is there a benefit to it? I do not use the word benefit in a self centered way. It is in a relationship way.

 

[Sissy]

Now. Where do we ever see God making a covenant with the children of Israel? He only speaks about the covenant He made with their fathers Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Even when He brings them to the mountain He speaks of the covenant He made with their fathers.

Jeremiah 31
(31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Sissy]

Notice the word "everlasting". That means....forever. Unending.

Well, sorta, but not exactly to our English understanding.

The Hebrew word is "olam", usually translated as forever or everlasting.

Hebrew does not actually have a word corresponding to our English understanding of "eternity".

"Olam" just has the meaning "to the horizon there is no end in sight", but does not in itself mean there is no end.
It is equivalent to looking down a road toward the horizon. The road near you is clear, but further and further toward the horizon you cannot make out if the road ends or not (it might have an end, or it might not).
So, even though the word "olam" is translated forever, it does not in itself mean that there will be no end.

Case in point is Jonah in the belly of the fish amid the waters.
His perception was that he was there "forever".
But we know that his "forever" had an end.

Jonah 2
(6) I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever (olam): yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
​

The closest phrase the Hebrew language has to our English understanding of "eternity" is usually translated as "for ever and ever".
Which has the meaning of "to the horizon and beyond".
In other words, if you walked down that road toward the horizon, even when you reached the horizon point you would still see no end in sight.

This phrase is most commonly used for the attributes of God.

Exodus 15
(18) The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.


1 Chronicles 29
(10) Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.


1 Timothy 1
(17) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
​

 

[Nathan]

Jeremiah 31
(31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Very well Sissy! I have succumbed to the ever dreaded miss wording of a thought.

The thought was based upon a covenant of the Law as it written. Some want to combine both the tablets of testimony and the book of the covenant into one and the same. My intentions were to say that no where do we find God making a covenant based on the testimony, otherwise known as the ten commandments.

Exd 24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient."

Exd 24:8 And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

Exd 24:9 Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up,

Exd 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.

Exd 24:11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.

Exd 24:12 The LORD said to Moses, "Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction."

We see that they are separate. The book of the covenant, and the law and commandments. The book of the covenant, which contained all the rules and regulations and ordinances is a completely separate thing from the law. The law was simply written for their instruction, NOT as a covenant.

 

[Elijah674]

Jeremiah 31
(31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

OK: One needs to BELIEVE this 'INSPIRATION' in verse 33 above!

(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people
(And these ones are the only ones that are Born Again! All Ten Commandments are RECREATED IN THEIR HEART!)

This was the New Covenant. If one would go to the PATERN (Blueprint type) of Psalms 77:13 (or type of recipe!) they would find that there is NO way to find Salvation without its actual start to finish. Some teach that the CROSS FINISHED the complete REQUIREMENT. They hardly ever even get past the outer court REQUIREMENT even. (sad!) From the start of Rom. 8:1 there is required Rom. 8:14! Of being LED of God. And about all these professed Born Again Jews understand today it seems, is that when Christ died & the Vail of seperation was removed from the Holy Place INTO the Most Holy Place,

they most all CRY IT IS FINISHED! IT IS FINISHED! None seem to understand that the DAY OF ATONEMENT IS NOT OVER YET FOR THEM! (Thankfully!)
It was an every day process twice daily seen in the Holy Place & the OTHER SIDE OF THE VAIL?? This represented the VERY LAST ATTONING WORK THAT OUR HIGH PRIEST HAS NOT EVEN YET FINISHED!! Dan. 12:1-4 + Rev. 22:12 Finds Christ Now Finished with His High Priestly Work & He brings His reward of Eternal life or Eternal death with Him.

One might get into the Most Holy Place of this Final Day of Atonement, but there seems a 'much lack' of interest on this site? And that is a question????

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Well, sorta, but not exactly to our English understanding.

The Hebrew word is "olam", usually translated as forever or everlasting.

Hebrew does not actually have a word corresponding to our English understanding of "eternity".

"Olam" just has the meaning "to the horizon there is no end in sight", but does not in itself mean there is no end.
It is equivalent to looking down a road toward the horizon. The road near you is clear, but further and further toward the horizon you cannot make out if the road ends or not (it might have an end, or it might not).
So, even though the word "olam" is translated forever, it does not in itself mean that there will be no end.

Case in point is Jonah in the belly of the fish amid the waters.
His perception was that he was there "forever".
But we know that his "forever" had an end.

Jonah 2
(6) I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever (olam): yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
​

The closest phrase the Hebrew language has to our English understanding of "eternity" is usually translated as "for ever and ever".
Which has the meaning of "to the horizon and beyond".
In other words, if you walked down that road toward the horizon, even when you reached the horizon point you would still see no end in sight.

This phrase is most commonly used for the attributes of God.

Exodus 15
(18) The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.


1 Chronicles 29
(10) Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.


1 Timothy 1
(17) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
​

Ok. I'll agree. That is the word that is used. However, the definition you give is a little off base, a little skewed. But that is only because of interpretation and not a fault at all. I'll agree I do not have a grasp of the Hebrew language hardly at all. But I can look up words just like the next guy.

It is well said that the Hebrew language is a "concrete" language. Here is an excerpt from a web site that deals with this very word in question.

"Hebrews viewed the world concretely and thru all five senses. Therefore Hebrew words relate to a concrete idea, a substance of Action. The Western language and culture views the world abstractly and with non-concrete words that are not related to the five senses: Hearing, Sight, Touch, Smell and Taste. In Ancient Hebrew there is no distinction between nouns and verbs. All words are related to Action. Hebrew words describe actions that one would see if you were to live as a nomad or Bedouin in the desert or wilderness. Ancient Hebrew describes objects in relation to their function or role." http://owlam.com/index.html

"Strong#5769‛ôlâm ‛ôlâmo-lawm', o-lawm' From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

The only word that is useful in the above attempt to define Olam is the word Concealed. A Hebrew man or woman in order to conceal themselves would tie or attach a cloth around their head. We commonly call this a veil today. The man or woman would then be joined or yoked with the cloth veil. Olam is the yoking, binding, tieing uniting, fastening, joining and weaving."

Again, taken from that web site. So you are correct in that we most of the time think about "forever" as a time period. And in the format it is used it is indicative of having to be bound to something. So, as long as that "something" is bound to it, then it is still there. What do we know about the covenants of God? They are binding to Him. We see this exemplified with the scene of the covenant made with Abraham.

God put Abraham to sleep and instead of the traditional way of both parties walking through the sacrifices together, thus signifying their devotion to the same, God walked through it without Abraham, signifying that it is "binding" as long as God is still "alive". The same is true with all the other covenants of God. God is still bound to them. He cannot change. It is only us who can pull away from them. But because we pull away does not mean they are still not in effect.

 

[Theofilus]

This Sabbath issue has less to do with Israel vs. the nations (gentiles) than we have made it out to be. The WHOLE issue is about a COVENANT! God had a covenant with Israel (and as Nathan pointed out even a person of the nation could be considered as Israel if they decided to sojourn with the Israelites and be party to the covenant as well). This covenant is the issue because within it we see a requirement to keep the 7th day holy and outside of it, no such requirement exists (the same can be said about circumcision). Here's what we need to focus on in order to hopefully come to the right conclusion and agreement on this matter: Is THAT Covenant still applicable to ANYONE who has lived beyond the 1st century?

I was going to say something about covenants, but you beat me too it. I was trying to figure out how to explain it without posting a sub-thread about it (it's quite a big subject). The real question is: Are we partakers in the covenant that was made at Sinai? One thing to keep in mind when we're answering that question - whatever our answer is, there are some pretty serious implications.

If we are partakers in the covenant at Sinai (the term "old covenant" is misleading, since it implies there are only two), then that means that we should not only be observing the Sabbath on the seventh day, but also keeping the annual biblical festivals, following the dietary rules and more.

If we are not partakers in the Sinai covenant, then that, too, has implications. It would mean that we are not bound by the commandments I mentioned above, but it would also mean that we are not bound by other commandments, at least not the ones that aren't repeated in the New Testament. But the Sinai covenant is not just a list of do's and don'ts. It also contains blessings and promises. There is a list of these blessings in Deuteronomy 28. That list contains the well-known words "And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail" (Deu. 28:13 KJV). I have heard many a preacher say those words and claim that they apply to Christians. But if we're not partakers of the Sinai covenant, then we have no right to claim the blessings of that covenant.

Which is it? Are we part of the covenant and "obligated" (I see it as more of a privilage) to keep the Sabbath, annual festivals and dietary laws, or are we outside the covenant and therefore have no right to claim it's promises and blessings?

 

[Nathan]

Elijah is hitting on this. But I would like to also interject something along with it.

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

Jer 31:32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

In order for one covenant to stop, the other must start. Instead of a tablet of stone, the law of God is now within the individual. So it begs the question; does God put a law within someone that has no effect on the person? Did God take out the 4th part of the testimony when He places it within an individual?

I have to say its kind of not likely that would be the case seeing how there is nothing to even hint at it. So, the Sabbath, is placed within the heart. The question still is asked by me, does it refer to a 'specific' day or just 'rest'?

 

[Nathan]

I was going to say something about covenants, but you beat me too it. I was trying to figure out how to explain it without posting a sub-thread about it (it's quite a big subject). The real question is: Are we partakers in the covenant that was made at Sinai? One thing to keep in mind when we're answering that question - whatever our answer is, there are some pretty serious implications.

If we are partakers in the covenant at Sinai (the term "old covenant" is misleading, since it implies there are only two), then that means that we should not only be observing the Sabbath on the seventh day, but also keeping the annual biblical festivals, following the dietary rules and more.

If we are not partakers in the Sinai covenant, then that, too, has implications. It would mean that we are not bound by the commandments I mentioned above, but it would also mean that we are not bound by other commandments, at least not the ones that aren't repeated in the New Testament. But the Sinai covenant is not just a list of do's and don'ts. It also contains blessings and promises. There is a list of these blessings in Deuteronomy 28. That list contains the well-known words "And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail" (Deu. 28:13 KJV). I have heard many a preacher say those words and claim that they apply to Christians. But if we're not partakers of the Sinai covenant, then we have no right to claim the blessings of that covenant.

Which is it? Are we part of the covenant and "obligated" (I see it as more of a privilage) to keep the Sabbath, annual festivals and dietary laws, or are we outside the covenant and therefore have no right to claim it's promises and blessings?

I think we are missing the truth in the matter however. The covenant made at Sinai was not based on the Tablets of Testimony. It was based on the Book of the Covenant. Two separate pieces of "literature". We are definitely apart of a "new" covenant.

Mat 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you,

Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

But the writer of Hebrews puts it this way;

Hbr 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hbr 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.

Its the idea that its not 'no holds bar, everyone do what he wants' type of covenant. Its simply a covenant that is based, grounded, built on, the perfect sacrifice of Jesus. The law still stands. It is who God is. It is not need for us to hold a measuring stick to, but rather as a way of understanding who God is and what He wants for us. Is that a bad thing?

But you do indeed point out the sickening hypocrisy of the modern "church". A smorgasbord of deciding what we will eat and what we will just leave for someone else. Oh, were not judgmental....until it comes to a light being shined on us.

 

[Sissy]

Very well Sissy! I have succumbed to the ever dreaded miss wording of a thought.

I knew that's all it was.

I just posted that verse for any onlookers that may have been confused by it.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

This is getting good! So now, let's look at the Covenant or should I say PROMISE God made with the patriarchs, specifically Abraham. God, based on Abraham's faith made him 3 main promises, a land promise, a seed promise, and a nation promise. These 3 promises were realized through Isaac, then his son Jacob. Their decendants were brought out of Eygpt to Mt. Sinai, and at and before Sinai, God addressed these decendants and the fact that HE remembered HIS Covenant with their fathers. GOD then gave THEM, the decendants the choice of entering into a new covenant relationship with HIM.

Exodus 19
3 Then Moses climbed the Mountain of God, and God called to him on the mountain, saying, ‘You must tell this to the house of Jacob, and report [My words] to the children of IsraEl: 4 You have seen all that I’ve done to the Egyptians, and how I lifted you as on the wings of eagles and brought you close to Me. 5 Now, if you will listen to what I tell you and keep My Sacred Agreement, you will be a special people to Me that will be higher than all other nations. And because the whole earth is Mine, 6 you will become a holy nation and My Royal Priesthood.
‘Now, [go] and tell this to the children of IsraEl!’
7 So Moses went back and called the people’s elders, and laid out what God said and how He said it. 8 And all the people answered unanimously, saying, ‘We will listen to and obey everything that God has said!’ And Moses reported their words to God.

Exodus 23
22 ‘If you listen to what I tell you, do everything that I tell you to do, and keep My Sacred Agreement, you will be a special people to Me above all other nations; for the whole earth is Mine. Then you will become a holy nation of Royal Priests.
‘Tell the children of IsraEl that if they will listen to what I say and do everything that I tell them, I will be an enemy to their enemies, and I will oppose anyone who is against them. 23 Then I will send My messenger to be their leader, and [he will] will bring them to [the land of] the Amorites, Chettites, Pherezites, CanaAnites, Gergesites, Evites, and Jebusites, and then I will destroy them. 24 But they must not worship or serve the gods [of those people], nor should they do any of the things that they are doing. Rather, they must all be destroyed and their [sacred] columns must be pulled down.
25 ‘If you serve Jehovah your God, I will bless your bread, your wine, and your water; and I will keep you from getting sick. 26 There won’t be anyone in your land who is impotent or infertile, and you will live a full life. 27 I will send terror ahead you, all the nations in the land you’re entering will be amazed by you, and I will make all your enemies run from you. 28 I will send hornets ahead of you, and you will drive the Amorites, Evites, CanaAnites, and the Chettites away from you. 29 I won’t throw them out the first year, so the fields don’t grow wild and allow wild animals to multiply there. 30 But before long, I will start throwing them out ahead of you, until you grow and inherit the land. 31 Then I will set your borders from the Red Sea to the [Mediterranean], and from the desert to the great Euphrates River.
‘I will hand over those who are living in the land and drive them away from you, 32 so you are to make no treaties with them or their gods. 33 And they won’t be allowed to live in your land, for fear that they might cause you to sin against Me. Because, if you serve their gods, that [would be a serious] offense for you.’
Chapter 24

1 Then Jehovah told Moses: ‘I want you, Aaron, Nadab, AbiUd, and seventy of IsraEl’s elders to come to Me and bow before [Me] from a distance. 2 And thereafter, I want you to come close to Me by yourself… none of the others should come any closer!’
3 So, Moses went and told the people about everything God had said and about His Laws. And the people unanimously answered all together, ‘We will do and obey everything that Jehovah has said!’

Those decendants agreed to enter into a covenant relationship with GOD that had a number of stipulations (Exodus 19-24 lists many).
Was that covenant designed to be everlasting? No, it WAS, however, designed to be age lasting meaning that it COULD last through multiple "ages" but was NOT described as being eternal. The fact that such words as eternal and everlasting are used by translators in describing this covenant is unfortunate as such usages perverts the message of God.

 

[Nathan]

Agreed! Spot on ToverT! The covenant was not "annulled" until the latter came. So indeed it was not 'technically' forever. It is also very realavent truth that the covenant is not eternal that was made at Siani. Does that mean the sign of the Sabbath is not also? Does it mean that the testimony of God is not also?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Here's the thing. From scripture, we see there was, is, and perhaps always will be significance about the 7th day. GOD blessed it immediately after the 6 days of creation, He commissioned Israel to keep it as part of a covenant, and His word speaks of a Sabbath rest for His people in a future tense in Hebrews. We today ARE NOT commissioned by covenant or direct order to keep the Sabbath holy, but that does not mean that doing so would be a bad idea. Practicing a Sabbath rest may in fact prove beneficial in that it will be a reoccuring reminder of God's work in creation of our habitation as well as a time to purge ourselves from the many "distractions" this world offers to keep people busy and away from waht really matters in life like family and being involved in the lives of others.

 

[Elijah674]

There are lots of covenants!

But 'THE COVENANT' is the Godheads unaltered AGREEMENT WITH FALLEN MAN. God says in bottom line.. this is My CONDITIONAL WAY BACK FROM ETERNAL DEATH! You are so to speak, on your way down from a 1000ft clift to be a blob, and you will die, yet, if you OBEY ME you will live again, and if not? You will be blotted from existance. Obad. 1:16

And Conditions??
Isa. 8:20 The Eternal Law that God Himself wrote for mankind's testing for Truth First! Called God's Eternal Covenant! Heb.13:20 & then [ALL TESTIMONY follows!] (Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16)

Deut. 9
[7] Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the LORD.
[8] Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.

(some say that they did this, but I am not them while doing the same! )

[9] When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenantwhich the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
[10] And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
[11] And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, [even the tables of the covenant.]

To have this Eternal Covenant, SIN must be defined for what LAW BREAKING IS & has Eternally been!

1 John 3

[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And the Ten Eternal Covenant Commandments that God Himself Spoke & wrote in Eternal Tables of stone find that the rebellion started in heaven where this Eternal Covenant was & still is, + Eternally has been & Eternally will always will be!


Now we need to see what the Testimony Is that is in Heaven's Ark! (Which the Ark on earth was Patterened after)

Exod. 25
[16] And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
[17] And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
[18] And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
[19] And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
[20] And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
[21] And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

We will save this here also for us to understand what is in the Heavens Most Holy Throne Room where Christ as our High Priest still is NOT FINISHED with His Priestly work yet! One must understand the Last work of Christ's Atonement! But first lets see that the Eternal Covenant is just that, note the time/frame, and that the angels also keep this Eternal Covenant + where John bowed down & was reprimanded & where the fault was directed from!
See if you can find the ETERNAL Covenant Ten here in heaven still?

Rev.11
[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[19] And [the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:] ...

(and inside the Ark are the Eternal Covenant of the Godheads Universe!)

... and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Rev. 22

[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God ...

[7] Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
[8] And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

[9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

[10] And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
....

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Here's the thing. From scripture, we see there was, is, and perhaps always will be significance about the 7th day. GOD blessed it immediately after the 6 days of creation, He commissioned Israel to keep it as part of a covenant, and His word speaks of a Sabbath rest for His people in a future tense in Hebrews. We today ARE NOT commissioned by covenant or direct order to keep the Sabbath holy, but that does not mean that doing so would be a bad idea. Practicing a Sabbath rest may in fact prove beneficial in that it will be a reoccuring reminder of God's work in creation of our habitation as well as a time to purge ourselves from the many "distractions" this world offers to keep people busy and away from waht really matters in life like family and being involved in the lives of others.

Your right. This is the exact place I have been for many many years. Then as I started to dive deeper into the things of God this came up. Your right, off hand it is ,in all reality, the only one out of the ten that is not spoken to directly as something we should do. Loving God, 'taking' His name in vain, idolatry, honoring parents, murder, adultery, stealing, lying, and greed are all spoken to by the NT writers directly in one form or another.

Why not the Sabbath? Is it not in the least bit interesting? I can provide direct references to the others if needed. But I am sure that most of us can think of them off hand. Is it just a completely non-issue to them? Or was it just because it was a given?