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[_ Old Earth _] A Summary of This Year's Defeats of Evolution Theory

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As outlined before, the manner is not random. So no, man did not come to be in a random manner.
Was Ernst Mayr in error when he stated
"... it is a considerable strain on one's credulity to assume that finely balanced systems such as certain sense organs (the eye of vertebrates, or the bird's feather) could be improved by random mutations."
If he was in error in your mind, please explain why. What does "random" mean in your vernacular? Does your version of evolutionism have any element of randomness/purposelessness involved?

Did he come to be via mutation and natural selection? It is possible.
Are you saying man came into existence via random mutation and natural selection? Do you have science to back that up or are you making a statement of religion?

In itself? Yes, I would say so.

Is it your notion that man came into existence via purposeless naturalism? We don't want to represent your position - please clarify. Please explain exactly where God fits into your version of evolutionism.

Do you acknowledge that your question made no sense and had no logic in it?

No.
 
Is that your latest and final admission that you have no "real evidence" based on a scientific method to support your notion. Very Good. Is that about it?
Unfortunately I have not had the time to keep up with this thread. But from the little I've seen, you require others to post '"real evidence" based on a scientific method to support' their positions, yet seem to dismiss this evidence without really addressing it. And I have not seen you provide any real evidence for any of your claims. I may be wrong and I hope I am.

You are not without bias in interpreting data.
 
Unfortunately I have not had the time to keep up with this thread. But from the little I've seen, you require others to post '"real evidence" based on a scientific method to support' their positions, yet seem to dismiss this evidence without really addressing it. And I have not seen you provide any real evidence for any of your claims. I may be wrong and I hope I am.

You are not without bias in interpreting data.

Are you speaking as a moderator or fellow poster? I will be more than happy to address your concerns as noted - publicly or privately - you let me know. For the record - I have addressed the question asked - some just do not like the answers. Maybe you included.
 
If your often repeated claim that homology points to common design as well as it points to common ancestry is true, we have yet to see any support for your allegation that common ancestry is untrue or impossible to conceive.

The video that I introduced included the concept of the HOX gene and the fact that a gene from a mouse can be used to tell a fly to produce a compound eye is powerful evidence that could readily establish a genetic relation between the two very different types of animals.

My point here is certainly not that I want to walk down another tangent but rather to say that your explanation (creation) does not preclude the the possibility of other explanations (mutation, natural selection, genetic drift, etc). Does the existence of HOX genes demand the conclusion that God exists and that He had a hand in things. If so, how?

Before this turns into a series of endless questions directed to me, kindly, just this once, give your answer and considered opinion first.
 
If your often repeated claim that homology points to common design as well as it points to common ancestry is true, we have yet to see any support for your allegation that common ancestry is untrue or impossible to conceive.
My point that homology supports common design as well as common ancestry is true and I don't think I ever stated that "common ancestry is impossible" - with Darwinism anything and everything is possible - given enough time. Time is Darwinisms god.

I did say, however that there is no scientific evidence that I have seen that proves man and monkey have a common ancestor. Do you have such evidence and if you do then please present it for review. I would really like to see it but know one yet has found it.
 
Does the existence of HOX genes demand the conclusion that God exists and that He had a hand in things. If so, how?
No more than the notion that HOX genes demand the conclusion that 'evolution did it'. As Creator - do you think God was involved with HOX genes?
 
No more than the notion that HOX genes demand the conclusion that 'evolution did it'. As Creator - do you think God was involved with HOX genes?
I think that God is personally involved with every bit of his creation, not even a sparrow can fall without His notice, but that wasn't the question.

We were talking about "real evidence" for your claim. Are you saying that you are unable to establish it through rigorous scientific evidence?
 
We were talking about "real evidence" for your claim. Are you saying that you are unable to establish it through rigorous scientific evidence?
I am saying that the Darwinian notion for man-monkey common ancestry has not been demonstrated on this thread and I am not trying to prove God exists via the scientific method. God by definition exists outside of nature and science does not have the ability to prove or disprove that which is "beyond the physics". You do understand the difference between science and metaphysics - right?
 
Was Ernst Mayr in error when he stated
"... it is a considerable strain on one's credulity to assume that finely balanced systems such as certain sense organs (the eye of vertebrates, or the bird's feather) could be improved by random mutations."
If he was in error in your mind, please explain why. What does "random" mean in your vernacular? Does your version of evolutionism have any element of randomness/purposelessness involved?

Yes, he was in error. As for the explanation why: he was looking at the things only at the local level, it seems, without seeing the big picture. If you ignore the big picture, you are bound to make erroneous statements.

My 'random' means the same thing as your 'random.'

The important thing is, as I've explained once before, that a random element within a structure (evolution in this case) does not make the whole structure random. So, for clarity:

Evolution has in itself elements of randomness = true
Evolution is random = false

And please stop using randomness and purposelessness interchangeably, they are not the same.

Are you saying man came into existence via random mutation and natural selection? Do you have science to back that up or are you making a statement of religion?
I am not saying man came into existence via random mutation and natural selection, please read my answer again if you feel I am. I said it is possible. That is not a claim, nor a statement of religion. That is acknowledgement of the fact that I do not know the answer for everything, but based on the information I do have, I cannot rule the option out.

Is it your notion that man came into existence via purposeless naturalism? We don't want to represent your position - please clarify. Please explain exactly where God fits into your version of evolutionism.
I have answered this question several times and you have always bypassed the answer and only continued by asking the same question again. You are free to look back at my clearly stated answers by looking through the thread, as I will not be repeating myself for your entertainment.

Even if God did not exist as Darwinists claim? Please explain.
Even if God didn't exist. Period. Who claims it is irrelevant, I mentioned it only as a theoretical example.
 
Yes, he was in error.
My 'random' means the same thing as your 'random.'
Ernst Mayr is no light-weight Darwinist - I will go with his statement. I think his evolutionism is based on random, purposeless processes that did not have man in mind.

I am not saying man came into existence via random mutation and natural selection, please read my answer again if you feel I am.
I didn't see exactly how God fits into your version of evolution - can you elaborate please?

Even if God didn't exist. Period. Who claims it is irrelevant, I mentioned it only as a theoretical example.

If God doesn't exist your "theoretical example" would be moot wouldn't it?
 
Do you acknowledge that your question made no sense and had no logic in it?
No.
That is a shame. To be frank, if someone is not capable of seeing, acknowledging and apologizing for one's error when it is pointed out to him, I realize that is as far as a discussion can go.

I am not asking you to denounce any of your opinions. I would merely appreciate if you were capable of admitting that you asked a misleadingly binary question when the answer was not one with only two possibilities to consider.

You choose what you want to hear, only accept the things that suit you, so that you can make a point, at the same time you ignore all else. You were given a lot of answers in this thread, yet you chose not to take them in. I really wonder, why do you keep on asking for evidence, when it is quite clear you would only dismiss it as Darwinian Myth anyway?
 
I bow out of the discussion, as I feel there are better things to do than run around in a circle. It is unfortunate, because it would have been nice to share ideas in a creative way. Instead, this is how I am made to feel about the whole discussion:

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LK, would you care to comment? *I'm expanding my thinking about evolution but I can't buy the whole concept.
*
I follow along with the idea that it is exciting to look at embryology and to consider that if evolution happens, it happens here. *I can also see that there have been many discoveries including what the video calls the "recipe" for evolution. *But they took a "mouse gene" (something that turns on the 'make an eye' switch) *and put it into a fly and a fly's compound eye was produced, not the eye of a mouse (which would have been really surprising).
*
So it seems to me that although we do know more and more (and I imagine that knowledge comes from the various DNA and Genome studies) we still have a lot to learn.
*
Hello Sparrow,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. I found the video interesting, but because of its shortness regarded more like an abstract of a paper, introducing the central concepts if the paper and the conclusions reached.*

Hox genes appear to be important evidence for evolutionary relationships amongst the variety of life because of their ubiquity and the fact that relatively uncomplicated changes (mutations) in these genes can have dramatic effects that are not seen in many other genetic mutations, producing easily seen phenotypic changes. However, rather than their simple ubiquity as an indicator for life's shared heritage, it is the dramatic changes that hox gene mutations can lead to that seems to be evidence for evolutionary change: because *they can (relatively speaking) be so easily changed with significantphenotypiceffects, they seem to lend themselves inevitably to a major role in leading to evolutionary variation.

The evidence from developmental embryology further underlines this conclusion. Limb buds and pelvises in snake embryos - which may shrink or even vanish completely as the embryo continues to grow - are powerful evidence of the evolutionary heritage of these organisms. So when all the various threads of evidence are taken into account - the impact of HOX * genes, morphology, molecular genetic data, morphology, the nested hierarchy, the fossil record, biogeography, homologies, atavisms, vestigial features and probably a bunch of others *I've probably forgotten - the fact of evolution and common ancestry seems impossible to avoid.
*
The biggest problems I have with the idea of common design is that it seems to presume a designer who is limited in a way that, conventionally, the Christian God is not seen to be. Why would this omniscient, omnipotent creator be constrained to - metaphorically speaking - need to go into his backyard workshop and rummage in his various boxes of bits in order to make all primates look, to an hypothetical interstellar visitor, pretty much all the same when he could have made chimps, orangutans, gorillas and humans as different as he wanted. Also, the argument of common design seems to put the proponent of this idea in the position not only of knowing God's mind, but also of limiting God's creative powers to those of a metaphorical garage tinkerer. There seems no reason - other than a need to adhere to an idiosyncratically literalist interpretation of certain parts (but not all) of the Bible - not to postulate a much more likely scenario for such a divine creative force of simply setting up the conditions from which life could originate and develop entirely naturalistically, evolution being the mechanism for driving this development; a mechanism simultaneously powerful and immensely effective.
 
You misunderstand - it's not the research technique - it is the interpretation of the data that results for the research. We all see the same data but not all of us are so gullible as to believe the Darwinian spin/bias used to manipulate the data to support evolutionism. Did you think Lewis presented a case for man-monkey common ancestry?
Can you show us - i.e. explain - how the data can be interpreted as supporting common design? And can you tell us how we can identify which particular common designer we should be considering in this context and why? Why, for example, should the God of YECism be preferred over Lord Brahma, if indeed this is the case?
 
LK, Thanks.

I can follow and see your reasoning very well in your first two paragraphs when you speak of looking at all the evidence but since I don't know specifically where the "boundaries" between the types or kinds of things God said He specifically (and separately) created, the image of a back-yard tinkerer who is limited in His creative acts is somewhat lost on me.

Seems to me that God made all things. In the past 30 years, science has "discovered" more species of animals than were known to exist prior. Given that God exists, and that my love for Him is sufficient evidence (wink): Is there room for the idea that He introduced adaptability into His creation, to believe that He also (by specific act) made changes to His creation and that He did such things with a wisdom that is beyond our ability to grasp? Okay, I know that you're not the right person to ask this, but I do enjoy our conversations and hope that you see that I'm trying to use integrity, grace and understanding while discussion the "hotly debated" topic with one and all.

I enjoy the "Christianity and Science" forum here very much.
 
Fair enough - no argument there.


There are two choices - (1) special creation via a loving Creator-God or (2) cold blind chance via the randomness of naturalism that did not have man in mind. We all must choose...there is no compromise.
Why are these the only two choices? What about:

* A creator-god who establishes the conditions - i.e. creates the Universe in the beginning - in which life can originate and evolve entirely naturalistically?

* Life created and seeded artificially on our world by unimaginably advanced aliens either from elsewhere in our Universe or from a Universe beyond ours?

And you appear to be anthropomorphising naturalism: it is not cold and it does not have a mind. Oh, and evolution is not wholly a matter of blind chance: the algorithm is quite simple - modify, if successful repeat, otherwise discard. The guiding force is natural selection.
 
LK, Thanks.

I can follow and see your reasoning very well in your first two paragraphs when you speak of looking at all the evidence but since I don't know specifically where the "boundaries" between the types or kinds of things God said He specifically (and separately) created, the image of a back-yard tinkerer who is limited in His creative acts is somewhat lost on me.

Seems to me that God made all things. In the past 30 years, science has "discovered" more species of animals than were known to exist prior. Is there room for the idea that He introduced adaptability into His creation, to believe that He also (by specific act) made changes to His creation and that He did such things with a wisdom that is beyond our ability to grasp? Okay, I know that you're not the right person to ask this, but I do enjoy our conversations and hope that you see that I'm trying to use integrity, grace and understanding while discussion the "hotly debated" topic with one and all.

I enjoy the "Christianity and Science" forum here very much.
You're right, I'm the wrong person to ask, but your idea seems eminently plausible in the context of a belief in God and wholly compatible with our still limited knowledge of what appears to go on in Nature.

May I take this opportunity to return your sentiments and hope that I can maintain the same high qualities of debating politeness that you do.
 
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Are you saying that mutations are random and that without random mutations evolution cannot "step forward"? You do know what 'random' means - yes?
Mutations are random, in the sense that they're not caused by a deliberate agent with purpose in mind, but mutations can have significantly different effects - they can be neutral, disadvantageous or advantageous, for example, and differingly so for populations as against individuals within those populations - but the processes by which they become fixed in a population have deterministic components in that natural selection, for example, is one of the processes that 'chooses' amongst those mutations.
 
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