iLOVE
Member
God awards Righteousness only on the basis of Faith in Christ and His Finished Work. Romans 4:5 NKJV
The grace of God comes because my Faith is in the Cross, now the Holy Spirit can help.
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Addiction?
- Thread starter Wrg1405
- Start date
The grace of God comes because my Faith is in the Cross, now the Holy Spirit can help.
Malachi
Member
That would depend on whether a sinner truly repented, and only God would know whether there was a mere profession of faith without any substance. All we can see from Scripture is that the New Birth produces a new life in Christ, old things are passed away, behold all things have become new. It has been noted in the past that many who responded to an invitation at a public evangelistic meeting did not really show any fruits of repentance.
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: (Mt 3:7,8). This is a critical subject, and no Christian should try and minimize the necessity of repentance and conversion as an important part of salvation.
I don't feel like anyone is minimizing conversion or repentance. And you can't just grab a scripture and decide it means whatever you want it to mean. =/
....maybe it's just best if I step out of this topic for good. If it's just myself, you can think what you like. But this topic involves other people and seeing it so mishandled upsets me greatly. I can no longer post calmly here. I'm sorry if I overstepped my bounds at any point, it's just that....
....maybe it's just best if I step out of this topic for good. If it's just myself, you can think what you like. But this topic involves other people and seeing it so mishandled upsets me greatly. I can no longer post calmly here. I'm sorry if I overstepped my bounds at any point, it's just that....
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Obadiah
Member
Seems I misunderstood you. Probably because I'm of the frame of mind that a person gets condemned to hell for their failure to accept the forgiveness given to us in the sacrifice of Jesus, and not because of any particular kind of sin, addiction, abuse of something, or anything else in particular. Thanks for clarifying that. I thought you were saying this would happen to Christians.
Obadiah
Member
I think this is exactly what a lot of people don't understand, and I would think this is the difference between an obsession and an addiction. Even if the addiction isn't to a substance like a drug, but is to something else like perhaps a TV show as you mentioned earlier, a person can become so dependent on the chemical reactions from the thing they are obsessed with that it then turns into an actual physical addiction because you now need that chemical reaction to feel right and good. For a lot of people when you try to stop the thing that is giving you the pleasurable chemical reaction it can be like trying to withdraw from an actual drug. At least that's how it's been described to me by a psychologist in a class I took a while back.
So I think something like purposely taking illegal addicting drugs can be sin (although I believe for a Christian the sacrifice of Christ is powerful enough to gain forgiveness for this and I'm sure the Holy Spirit would be convicting any Christian caught up in this so he would be trying to get away from it even if he wasn't always successful due to the physical issues involved), as you have pointed out many addictions can even come from something that is not sinful or evil in itself, and not even commonly thought of as addictive. This has nothing more to do with having or losing salvation and ending up in hell than having cancer, being killed in a car accident, or really any other kind of death. I do think that if a Christian unrepentantly did something that was actually sinful to cause the addiction, they may have to answer to God for it, but they will not lose their salvation and go to hell for it. If a person is not a Christian, therefore not saved in the first place, no matter how they die it wont make any difference if they are addicted to something or not. They will still end up in hell.
Obadiah
Member
I wouldn't paint the entire Christian Church with such a broad brush. Just as in the non-christian area, there are ignorant people who don't or refuse to understand, and there are people who do understand. I know several Christians personally who understand and work to help addicts as a ministry.
Obadiah
Member
Then who will be left to present your experienced side?I don't feel like anyone is minimizing conversion or repentance. And you can't just grab a scripture and decide it means whatever you want it to mean. =/
....maybe it's just best if I step out of this topic for good. If it's just myself, you can think what you like. But this topic involves other people and seeing it so mishandled upsets me greatly. I can no longer post calmly here. I'm sorry if I overstepped my bounds at any point, it's just that....
Have left the topic, but will respond to this.
Yeah, it's not the whole church. I was actually speaking not only of this, but mental illness in general--though addiction is it's own area requiring, to my understanding, it's own separate handling. Mental health is often poorly understood and people still have the idea that mental illness (of which psychological addiction/dependence is a type) doesn't exist or that it's something you can just shrug off. I realize this is very prevalent in the secular world as well, it's not just the church.
I think anything more will just aggravate me and get me in trouble. =/
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Under the new covenant Christ is our faith that we believe the finished works done on the cross as Gods grace pardons our sin even though we do not deserve it as mercy loves us unconditionally. No Christ, no faith.
Jethro Bodine
Member
If sin has no bearing on salvation then why did the immoral fellow at Corinth have to be turned over to the destruction of the flesh in order to be saved?
I've lost my patience with everybody saying Christianity is a license to sin with impunity. I empathize with everyone who struggles with a sinful addiction. Note, I said 'struggles' with an addiction. But I'm really put off by Christians who think they can accept their sin and put up no struggle with it because they've rationalized in their minds that it doesn't matter in the long run if they willfully sin in this age. I'm not angry at their sin. I know about sin all too well myself. What I'm angry at is this widespread movement in the church today that has rationalized away sin because they say it has no bearing on salvation.
If a person is caught up in a sinful addiction because of a denial of Christ they most certainly will be denied by Christ at the resurrection. Let's all reread KevinK 's post and remember what Christ has saved us from, and out of thankfulness and fear for what God has done for us mount a determined resistance to stop accepting sin as a way of life and receive the grace God has provided for us to be the new creations he says we really are. The grace of God was given to us to get out of sin, not continue to live in it with impunity as so many Christians think these days:
"11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." (Titus 2:11-14 NASB)
What I see in the church today is this horrible teaching spreading like gangrene that says the grace of God teaches us to say 'yes' to sin because there's nothing you can do about it anyway, and it doesn't have anything to do with your salvation anyway, not knowing who they've become in Christ and that sin most certainly does have something to do with your salvation. Ask the immoral fellow at Corinth who had to be turned over to the destruction of the flesh and brought to repentance so he could be saved.
iLOVE
Member
I believe we are agreeing.
KevinK
Member
Well, in all honesty I could have expressed myself a little better with a fuller explanation. In the end, no harm, no foul.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Me too.
A failure that is signified by an acceptance of that sin. And I think that is what Malachi is getting at. The lack of conscience when it comes to besetting sin, displayed in an acceptance of that sin, and thinking it has no bearing on salvation, these are what need to be challenged in the church today.
I think we have different views on OSAS (me being on the side of OSAS and you not), but yeah, you do have an important point here. I don't know that my posts came across as saying addiction is something we should just accept as normal and okay or something, but if so, I definitely didn't mean that. Even from a secular viewpoint, it is a destructive and unhealthy, and hurtful, thing. Mine came rather close to costing me my life, even if the thing involved was innocent enough.
The scenario in the OP, it was stated that the hypothetical person hated their addiction and struggled with it, so I don't think that applies here.
....and I said I would leave, but I did view your post and wanted to comment, just make it clear I wasn't promoting something that would actually be very bad on all fronts.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I've been meaning to tell you I personally did not sense condemnation from your post. It was an important post that Christians need to read. But I can see how someone might possibly see offense in it. We Christians need to be reminded what we have been saved from, and need to stay saved from through an ongoing faith in God's forgiveness. It is that very grace that is key to the Christians victory over besetting sin. But changing God's grace into a license to stay in your besetting sin unchallenged and you still being saved is IMO denying the grace of God in Christ. The person who does that will eventually lose the grace of God's salvation. They will be turned away at the resurrection. The struggling saint continually looking for the grace of God and not accepting their sin, they are the one who will be received at the resurrection, no matter where they are at in that struggle when they die.
Obadiah
Member
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. But I think things like the kind of addiction they are talking about here isn't necessarily the kind where the Christian addict accepts what he is doing is OK. I think it's more of a problem of a physical (or psychological) addiction that is controlling the Christian who tries to repent the best they can, but keeps falling backward. Sort of like Paul lamenting about how he wants to do the right thing but still struggles with doing the wrong thing at times.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I did not see you doing that. Others have, here and in many other threads. Frankly, I'm sick of it.
I so agree with you that many Churches do say just trust God or just get over it.
Webster's Dictionary: Addict is a person with a habit so strong that they cannot easily give it up.
I will use myself for an example: My second marriage was so abusive that I lost all self-esteem and became very suicidal in thought as I would contemplate how to kill myself. I was at that time a Spirit filled Christian and still am, but my mental capacity from all the physical and mental abuse put my life in a tail spin. I went to the Pastor of the Church I was going to at that time and told him I needed help with this. I can not to this day believe what he said to me. He patted me on the back and said I was a strong person and I could handle it and just pray about it. WOW!!! I am a suppressor at times, but I really wanted to talk this out with him in hopes of getting rid of this addiction of wanting to kill myself. It took me a few more years to finally get rid of these emotions as I totally humbled myself before the Lord himself and poured my heart out to Him and the Holy Spirit did a complete renewal within me.
The point is is that even though I prayed for years for this all to stop I never stopped long enough for the Lord to speak to me, to comfort me, to help me get rid of these thoughts as they became my addiction. There is so much truth in hearing that small still voice speak to you. The physical will always go away, but the mental part will always be with you, but through Gods help the mental part now becomes part of my testimony as it no longer controls me even though it is always present with me.
I hope this helps to explain to others there are different types of addictions other than substance abuse.
yes I believe so too. sometimes it's just in the wording
This isn't to take away from your post as it's a good post. I only wanted to say that not all of us hear God speak to us or feel (lack of a better word) Him comfort us. I know that I never have. As much as I want to hear Him or feel (again lack of a better word) Him comfort me, I never have and it's not for a lack of trying.
I have prayed for that feeling of comfort, prayed to hear Him speak to me, but never have I had either happen.
So I guess my question becomes, are there Christians, good Christians that never hear from the Lord?