This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
I'm not ignoring it. I posted about it in another post. I agree with everything you've said here except your redefining of the word perish. Separation from God is not the definition of perish. The word perish means to die. It means loss of life. It's simple enough to look it up. The idea of separation from God is just trying to make the Scriptures fit with this immortal soul idea.
You say I've got it wrong, yet you've not posted a single verse of Scripture to show how. Where does Scripture say that the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment?
Jesus used a lot of things the Israelites were familiar with as teaching tools. Heaven was not necessarily a wheat field or a drag net or a huge mansion with many rooms, Jesus was using all of those as teaching tools. Those who have an ear to hear will understand what the master was really teaching.
The third person of the Godhead.
Why would he? One purpose of speaking in parables and analogies is to obscure:
Yes, it means to die, but there's the first death and the second death, perish is referring to the first death, not the second. Body perishes, spirit doesn't.
Go read and study Rev. 20. Eternal torment is not penalty, it's natural consequence for walking down that broad way that leads to destruction, Matt. 7:13-14.
Yes, He did. However, He explained them literally to His disciples. It was to His disciples that He said it was better to enter life maimed than to go into the fire of Gehenna
Are you suggesting that wicked souls consist of the body and the Holy Spirit?
Yes, it's true that the parable were to obscure. They were to obscure the meaning to the Jews. they were not to obscure it to the disciples.
In order for something to the second, it has to be like the first. If a second person walks through the door, it's a person not a dog. A dog coming through the door would not be a second person. It has to be a person, like the first person. Thus, the second death, must be a death like the first death. If it's different it's not the second one.
I'm familiar with Rev 20. It speaks of the Beast, the false prophet and the devil, being tormented forever and ever. However, when it gets down to the judgment of men it says those not found in the book are cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. So, the men die. There's also a translation error. The phrase "forever and ever:" is mistranslated. It's properly translated, unto the ages of the ages. The Greek word aion doesn't mean eternal. It can't. Jesus and the apostles all speak of the end of the aion. Jesus and Paul also speak of an aion to come. How can eternity end? It can't. Eternity, by definition, is unending. Thus, something that ends cannot be eternal. Also, if eternity never ends, there can't be another eternity after it. So the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, will suffer for a prescribed period of time that God has determined.
Literal fire in literal Gehenna is quenchable. THe unquenchable fire is only in the Lake of fire.
The word "spirit" literally means breath, all are born with their first breath. However, only the righteous are born again according to the Holy Spirit, the wicked are possessed by evil spirits - spiritual hosts of wickedness, Eph. 6:12.
And yet Jesus still repeatedly used such analogies in his private sessions with his disciples. He did speak figuratively to his disciples. The difference is that his disciples got it, others didn't.
None of these is taught in the bible. In the first death the moretal body is already returned to dust, how could the dust die again in the same way? Does death of the maggots that eat the corpse count as the second death?
That's jsut your unbelief, and it often starts with discrediting the bible and rejecting its authority. NOw your only argument is that the bible's wrong, you're right.
So you don't believe the Creator of the universe has any form of punishment higher than what " we have " ?
Look, man, it's gonna be eternal because time doesn't exist in new heavens and new earth. In the creation week, God made the sun, moon and stars as indicators of time -
However you want to translate it, the punishment of the wicked lasts as long as the eternal life of the righteous. It uses the same word for both groups.
Yeah, but it's the punishment not the punishing. The condemnation is age enduring, not the action.
You still are only giving me opinions. You've explained how you understand those passages. That doesn't necessitate that your understanding is correct. Again, there is nothing in Scripture that says the penalty for sin is eternal torment. The fact that there is not a single passage of Scripture that says eternal torment is the penalty for sin, should be a major red flag for everyone who's making this claim. We have thousands of years of communication from God in the Scripture and not once are we told that the penalty is eternal torment. Everyone in the Bible who speaks of the penalty for sin says it's death or perishing, which is death.
Ah, the final flails. The Ad hominem. If you can't beat the argument, go after the debater. This is a logical fallacy my friend. I never said what the creator of the universe has. I simply said, He said the penalty was death.
The word anastasis, that is translated resurrection, means to stand again. The Resurrection is the resurrection of the flesh. That body that died is raised back to life. At the second death it is destroyed again. Thus, the term, second death. The same person has died twice.
I'm in unbelief because I disagree with you? Does that mean your understanding is God's word? As I pointed out, the passage only speaks of three individuals suffering torment "forever and ever" which I pointed out is mistranslated. I'm going to go out on limb here and say that if Jesus and the apostles say something ends, it ends.
Gehenna is the Lake of Fire.
Yes, it does. And we see in Genesis 2:7 that the only spirit in man is the breath of God.
They got it because He explained it to them.
From a Calvinist viewpoint, the verses you provided underscore the destiny of the wicked as ordained by God, as discussed in John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion.
Please finish then ?
We read back in Rev 6:9-11 about the souls under the altar waiting to be avenged. The fulfilling of this will have come at this time of Christ coming as their fellow servants have all died a martyr’s death and final judgements are made (Great White Throne Judgement). Those who are sitting on symbolic thrones are all those who have died a martyr’s death being servants of God as now they reign with Christ in judgment over the nations.
What I am giving you is how one word can have so many different definitions between the Hebrew, Greek and English, but it's all in the full context of what is being taught in the whole Bible and not just one verse. These are my understandings by how I study scripture with scripture, not teacher with teacher, or religion with religion. I never ask anyone to believe me, but to at least take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves.