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ARE GAY PEOPLE BORN THAT WAY ?
- Thread starter HOLLYROCK
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Pizzaguy
Member
I was born male, and born with a fascination for women/girls. If I can be held accountable for my lusts, why can't gays?
Are they born that way? I think so, I KNOW of one who sure was - but I can't say that it is a universal truth that all 'gays' were born that way - not for certain.
Are they born that way? I think so, I KNOW of one who sure was - but I can't say that it is a universal truth that all 'gays' were born that way - not for certain.
Christ_empowered
Member
I'm going to give you what I've come up with, as a man struggling with "the gay."
OK. I think I was born predisposed. Maybe in another time, another family, another society, I would've turned out hetero or celibate--like, a priest or something--but hey: it was the 1980s. I was too pretty, too neurotic, too physically and socially awkward, too socially isolated...and I grew up interested almost exclusively in other men.
Now, I will say that the urges have diminished somewhat. I had an intense religious experience (visions, voices...lots going on). Then I was in a 1-year, all male, Christian Rehab. Not fun, but...it fixed a lot of things that were making my homosexual behavior more compulsive and reduced my urges. Hard to explain.
So, now, based on my small sample of 1 man, I'll say that there are certain inborn characteristics that, in the right environment (family and group level) can lead to intense homo-inclinations. In my experience at least, once that's a part of your make up, it'll probably be there for a while. At this point, I'm more interested in just being and developing my own interests than I am in pursuing homorelationships. Hard to explain, but somehow God has made me more rational: I sense what's at stake, at least more than I did before.
I will say that we're all born sinful. I know, slack answer, but its true. Some us are born prone to madness, to drug+alcohol abuse, to rage, to coldness. Even after conversion, we'll struggle with some things. This is Earth, not Heaven; struggle and pain are part of the Christian deal. Even if scientists find the exact gene that=gay, Christians who struggle with same-sex attraction will be expected to fight it. Fair? Uh, no. We live in a Fallen World. Also, I believe (I'm stealing this from CS Lewis) that being a Christian means becoming fully human. I believe Lewis uses the example of dogs. Dogs are "doggy," so to speak, when in right relationship with humans, who bred them for their pleasure. We're not exactly pets, this is true, but we're not truly human until we acknowledge the Creator. Without acknowledging Him, we're just lost in a maze of self-absorption and spiritual deadness.
OK, so Christ helps make us truly human. What's one very important thing that God has given humans? Free will. Free will, informed by Christian morality, demands that we live a certain way to maintain our relationship with Christ and our (authentic) humanity. That means we have to pick up our cross and try our best to get certain sins out of our lives. Its the only way to truly live a full, meaningful life.
That's all I can think of right now. Keep in mind that I'm definitely not perfect and this is HARD, and it gets harder the more you realize how terrible the sin is, if that makes any sense. Its like...I'll think "man, I've got this. I'm awesome!" and then BAM! I'm not so awesome. Just...saved.
Hope this helps.
OK. I think I was born predisposed. Maybe in another time, another family, another society, I would've turned out hetero or celibate--like, a priest or something--but hey: it was the 1980s. I was too pretty, too neurotic, too physically and socially awkward, too socially isolated...and I grew up interested almost exclusively in other men.
Now, I will say that the urges have diminished somewhat. I had an intense religious experience (visions, voices...lots going on). Then I was in a 1-year, all male, Christian Rehab. Not fun, but...it fixed a lot of things that were making my homosexual behavior more compulsive and reduced my urges. Hard to explain.
So, now, based on my small sample of 1 man, I'll say that there are certain inborn characteristics that, in the right environment (family and group level) can lead to intense homo-inclinations. In my experience at least, once that's a part of your make up, it'll probably be there for a while. At this point, I'm more interested in just being and developing my own interests than I am in pursuing homorelationships. Hard to explain, but somehow God has made me more rational: I sense what's at stake, at least more than I did before.
I will say that we're all born sinful. I know, slack answer, but its true. Some us are born prone to madness, to drug+alcohol abuse, to rage, to coldness. Even after conversion, we'll struggle with some things. This is Earth, not Heaven; struggle and pain are part of the Christian deal. Even if scientists find the exact gene that=gay, Christians who struggle with same-sex attraction will be expected to fight it. Fair? Uh, no. We live in a Fallen World. Also, I believe (I'm stealing this from CS Lewis) that being a Christian means becoming fully human. I believe Lewis uses the example of dogs. Dogs are "doggy," so to speak, when in right relationship with humans, who bred them for their pleasure. We're not exactly pets, this is true, but we're not truly human until we acknowledge the Creator. Without acknowledging Him, we're just lost in a maze of self-absorption and spiritual deadness.
OK, so Christ helps make us truly human. What's one very important thing that God has given humans? Free will. Free will, informed by Christian morality, demands that we live a certain way to maintain our relationship with Christ and our (authentic) humanity. That means we have to pick up our cross and try our best to get certain sins out of our lives. Its the only way to truly live a full, meaningful life.
That's all I can think of right now. Keep in mind that I'm definitely not perfect and this is HARD, and it gets harder the more you realize how terrible the sin is, if that makes any sense. Its like...I'll think "man, I've got this. I'm awesome!" and then BAM! I'm not so awesome. Just...saved.
Hope this helps.
I'm not completely certain, but I do know some people who claim to be "ex-gay". Their interests just changed.
It's possible there is also a period where one is curious and may be interested in the same gender out of curiosity--my dad said he went through a phase like that as a teenager. Not saying it's always that way.
It's possible there is also a period where one is curious and may be interested in the same gender out of curiosity--my dad said he went through a phase like that as a teenager. Not saying it's always that way.
DarkHorseRising
Member
Your question is ambiguous... there are people who face temptations with homosexuality, the same as people who are tempted by drugs or alcohol or crime. Whether they act on it or not is their choice.
Mike
Member
I think this is the main point I was going to make. If I desire something that is forbidden, it doesn't matter how or why I came to have my desire for it. It doesn't change the fact that, what ever it is, should be abstained from. If I'm in a blood line that makes me (by heredity) prone to alcoholism, do I have an excuse when I spend my days and nights getting hammered. No. It's wrong for those who are prone to it and those who aren't.
Whether they are born gay or it is learned, it doesn't change the fact that acting on those impulses is wrong in His sight.
handy
Member
I know at least one guy who was born gay... but he also was born into a Christian family and came to trust God at a very early age. He trusted God to change his desires and that is exactly what took place...
He's been married now for 20=/- years and has two beautiful daughters.
However we are born, being born again means that we are a new creation, no longer enslaved to the old desires.
(Doesn't mean that the process of becoming a new creation is easy or that temptations don't rear up... but God can and does change evil desires into godly desires.)
He's been married now for 20=/- years and has two beautiful daughters.
However we are born, being born again means that we are a new creation, no longer enslaved to the old desires.
(Doesn't mean that the process of becoming a new creation is easy or that temptations don't rear up... but God can and does change evil desires into godly desires.)
this is how i see it, i never woke up one day and told myself i will like guys or girls. and no i was never molested raped i have a fine childhood with loving parents. i didnt have an overbearing mother, but i always knew even from childhood that i liked guys.
i pray about it everyday, God show me what you think about it. my thoughs evolve everyday on the issue. i stated earlier i was non practicing gay but if i do find someone who is building me up and bringing me to Christ and so happens to be gay would i stop a relationship no i dont think so.
simply because when Jesus came to earth he called out all of the laws of the land and constantly showed how hypocritical people were.
and if gay is a sin, Christians sin every day and God forgives them, so couldnt he forgive me? even if i was committed and i loved someone. i think he would be happy, i dont think he would care as long as i loved Jesus and God and that was my life focus. just my thoughts on the issue
i pray about it everyday, God show me what you think about it. my thoughs evolve everyday on the issue. i stated earlier i was non practicing gay but if i do find someone who is building me up and bringing me to Christ and so happens to be gay would i stop a relationship no i dont think so.
simply because when Jesus came to earth he called out all of the laws of the land and constantly showed how hypocritical people were.
and if gay is a sin, Christians sin every day and God forgives them, so couldnt he forgive me? even if i was committed and i loved someone. i think he would be happy, i dont think he would care as long as i loved Jesus and God and that was my life focus. just my thoughts on the issue
handy
Member
Alex,alexlove said:
I really appreciate your honesty here, but I also think it's concerning....
As of now, your mind set seems to be along the lines of ... if I meet someone who is a Christian and gay and wants a relationship... I'll go for it, because others sin and are forgiven...
True, all Christians sin... What isn't true is that all Christians sin with the idea that ... "It's OK for me to do this because it's what makes me happy and Jesus will forgive me anyway..."
Would Jesus care if you started a relationship with a gay guy because it would make you happy and He'll just forgive you anyway? .... after all, He already paid the price, right?
The very first step with any Christian, gay, straight, asexual or whatever, is that we take on the mind of Christ and begin to align our thoughts with what He says and what He commands. And, Jesus' thoughts aren't just the "red words" in some bibles... The Holy Spirit did a pretty good job at making sure that what is in the Scriptures is the mind of God... So, when we come up against the idea of if something is sin or wrong or against God's commandments, no matter how innocent it might seem to us, we need to submit to God about it.
Not all things are sin... there are a lot of things that we face in 2012 that we have liberty and freedom in... which day of the week to worship on comes to mind, whether or not to listen to Metallica, or watch Mad Men... these are issues of personal responsibility and no one should act as our judge regarding them.
However, what the Bible clearly states as sin... things like the sexual sins, adultery, fornication, homosexuality... or non-sexual sins like reviling, theft, drunkenness and (promoters of many so-called "Christian TV ministries" take note) swindling people out of their money... all these are clearly denounced as wickedness and sin... these are things to avoid...
...not take the attitude of "Well, I'll just do it, because I want to and it makes me happy, and Jesus will forgive me anyway"...
When we do sin, it should trouble us, convict us, really make us 100% uncomfortable... this is how the Holy Spirit works within us to make us new creatures, new creations that won't be slaves to sin, but rather joyful slaves to righteousness.
P
phantom309
Guest
To say that some people are "born gay" doesnt make much sense,and also involves a good deal of dishonesty.
I say it doesnt make sense due to the fact that God clearly outlines it as sinful behavior,and makes crystal clear his disgust of this particular perversion.Why then would our God,if we know Him as fair and just,levy such a judgement on us for pursuing this lifestyle if it is in fact one that some are born with a predisposition to?He wouldnt,it just makes no sense what-so-ever.The only available conclusion from there is the simple fact that is a choice,like any other.
If we try to theorize that some are born this way and that,then there would be no moral standard that could be held absolute.Serial killers? Well wed have a hard time justifying imprisonment if theyre just innately programmed that way..after all,theyre just following their instinctual behavior.And from this line of thought there would be no statute on which to stand against thievery,destruction of property,etc,etc.Its nothing but shifting the blame,and a dishonest refusal to own up to the individual choosing to follow said behavior,despite the presented moral consequence.
Further evidence can be found for this in our daily lives.There are times when people anger us,and we choose to follow or dismiss the urge to slap them silly.There are times when someone defaces our property and we choose to follow or dismiss the desire for payback in some manner.What causes us to hold back?We know the balance of right/wrong.Why then can we not reason or hold others accountable to the fact that they choose to follow a deviant lifestyle,and therefore accept the consequences?For those that attempt to claim this exemption,they fool only themselves.
Also,@ Alex:
Yes,this is a sin that can be forgiven just like any other.The critical thing/process that is ignored here is that of repentance.I could no more expect to be forgiven for constant thievery than a homosexual who does not cease and desist,and turn away from that lifestyle.Once I know its wrong,and stop doing the wrong Im eligible for forgiveness.Of course people sin daily and expect to be forgiven,but mistakes in the moment or lapse of judgement is far different than actively and intentionally pursuing and living in a manner inconsistent with Gods stated word.
Omitting parts of the bible does not exempt us from bearing the punishment of things done wrong.The bible is perfectly clear that homosexuality is wrong,referred to as an abomination,and further condemned towards the end of scripture also.There is nothing that remotely condones this behavior.You can believe in God,and that is good.Remember,though,the warning referencing the end of days when many call out to God claiming that they acted in His name..the sharp response from God in Matthews is as follows:
21Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
This clearly shows that many who believe in God and claim to follow will not enter heaven.Dont make excuses or try to find the loopholes..just do whats right.
I say it doesnt make sense due to the fact that God clearly outlines it as sinful behavior,and makes crystal clear his disgust of this particular perversion.Why then would our God,if we know Him as fair and just,levy such a judgement on us for pursuing this lifestyle if it is in fact one that some are born with a predisposition to?He wouldnt,it just makes no sense what-so-ever.The only available conclusion from there is the simple fact that is a choice,like any other.
If we try to theorize that some are born this way and that,then there would be no moral standard that could be held absolute.Serial killers? Well wed have a hard time justifying imprisonment if theyre just innately programmed that way..after all,theyre just following their instinctual behavior.And from this line of thought there would be no statute on which to stand against thievery,destruction of property,etc,etc.Its nothing but shifting the blame,and a dishonest refusal to own up to the individual choosing to follow said behavior,despite the presented moral consequence.
Further evidence can be found for this in our daily lives.There are times when people anger us,and we choose to follow or dismiss the urge to slap them silly.There are times when someone defaces our property and we choose to follow or dismiss the desire for payback in some manner.What causes us to hold back?We know the balance of right/wrong.Why then can we not reason or hold others accountable to the fact that they choose to follow a deviant lifestyle,and therefore accept the consequences?For those that attempt to claim this exemption,they fool only themselves.
Also,@ Alex:
Yes,this is a sin that can be forgiven just like any other.The critical thing/process that is ignored here is that of repentance.I could no more expect to be forgiven for constant thievery than a homosexual who does not cease and desist,and turn away from that lifestyle.Once I know its wrong,and stop doing the wrong Im eligible for forgiveness.Of course people sin daily and expect to be forgiven,but mistakes in the moment or lapse of judgement is far different than actively and intentionally pursuing and living in a manner inconsistent with Gods stated word.
Omitting parts of the bible does not exempt us from bearing the punishment of things done wrong.The bible is perfectly clear that homosexuality is wrong,referred to as an abomination,and further condemned towards the end of scripture also.There is nothing that remotely condones this behavior.You can believe in God,and that is good.Remember,though,the warning referencing the end of days when many call out to God claiming that they acted in His name..the sharp response from God in Matthews is as follows:
21Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
This clearly shows that many who believe in God and claim to follow will not enter heaven.Dont make excuses or try to find the loopholes..just do whats right.
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G
GojuBrian
Guest
I'm quite certain I was born a lesbian. I just can't help it.
Drew
Member
I would bet a month's salary that homosexual orientation is mostly a genetic thing. And this is entirely consistent with a proper understanding of the story of the fall - Adam sins and the very fabric of all creation is damaged. So we should not be at all surprised when scientists tell us that people are "born" with certain pre-dispositions.
It is, of course, no one's "fault" to born the way they are born. I suspect that underneath your question is a pre-supposition that the fundamental issue is "moral culpability". I have come to think that this is probably the wrong framework. I think that a model where we see creation as broken / damaged, and in need of repair / healing is a more Biblically accurate model.
Bonairos
Member
Perhaps I'll throw a curve by asking your question with different words.
"Is being sex-ually attractive to someone with the same sex genitals and physique as you a choice or are you (created in the womb by God and thus) born that way?"
The question does not (nor should it) take into account the "influences" that come about after one comes into this world.
Perhaps, posing the question in this light would give us a clearer understanding of the answers (and beliefs) we are given.
But then again, we'd have to conclude within ourselves what was God's purpose in creating mankind to begin with.
Be blessed, Stay blessed, and be Bold!
Drew
Member
No. Please do not takes this road. The fact that I believe people are born gay does not make me dishonest. You have no case here - in respect to this accusation of dishonesty.
God disapproves of heterosexual promiscuity. Does this mean that (most) people "choose" to be heterosexual. I very much doubt it. Yes, the Bible asserts that homosexual activity is sinful. But that is hardly an argument against "being born gay". As per my last post, the fall damaged the very fabric of creation, so it should not surprise us that people are "born" with genetic pre-dispositions to all sorts of unhealthy behaviours.
P
phantom309
Guest
Dont take this road? You asked a question,therefore do not attempt to censor my response..it is as it stands.By responding in said manner,youve revealed that you came not with a question,but an agenda that you intended to defend should anyone disagree with your statement disguised as a question.
Further,I believe it does involve some dishonesty..if you dont agree,oh well.I have not,nor ever will I ever believe that homosexuality is a trait defined by genetics for common sense reasons outlined in my first post.God would not have us born into a hardwired inclination to pursue a certain set of behavior,only to condemn us for it later.This would not only be wrong,but highly sadistic.The first convenient response in the majority of cases is to do the blame-shift shuffle instead of outright admitting that it was something we wanted to do,even if the reasons are trivial.Its just human nature to cover-up rather than admit.This case is no different.
People obviously choose to be hetero or homo.I have a choice what person I kiss,whos hand I hold.I am not controlled via rf frequency and forced to hold the hand of another guy or have sex with him.Thats ridiculous.That may be attractive to you for whatever reason,but you choose what to do with that desire,like any other.
I do however agree,to an extent,with your assessment of humanity in its damaged state.We obviously have a natural inclination to sin and enjoy seeking out the pleasures of the flesh in their many forms.This does not state that we are genetically hardwired to follow any of these urges,however.In fact the bible is very clear throughout to choose the right path,make the right decisions,and turn away from things we know God doesnt want us involved in.
Further,one thing is evident..we are hardwired to know of our Creators existence.We all seek this truth most of our life,yet it is up to us to choose whether we follow it or not.It is all about choice.We decide what we will do with our lives,and are rewarded/punished accordingly.
Acting out sexual sin is a sin. This paragraph, by this most pleasant young man, screams why the church needs to stand up and be heard. Acting out homosexuality is a sin.... Sex out side of Godly marriage is a sin. Sex sins trap us, Many of the cult leaders us sex to control folks, they use our guilt....
The whole picture of Christ and His Bride is built on the picture of Godly marriage. God gave us boundaries, guidelines,. Have we as a church gone so for into tolerance we forget. God destroyed two cities or peoples over this very thing....Are we to learn from the OT or ignore it...
Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Lev 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Lev 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
No one is born absolutely hetero or homo, and in that sense it is both being born that way and a choice. Like all heterosexuals have in their mind at least some degree or homosexual potential, so do all homosexuals have a degree of heterosexual potential. Some homosexuals feel that they should not be what they are so they choose to focus on their heterosexual side, however small part that might be. The more bisexually inclined you are, the more easy it is to choose what sex you want to be consciously attracted to.
yes he would, and its not sadistic, because what he decides is right.
Drew
Member
You were being disrespectful and rude - you had, and continue to have - no basis in fact for your generalization that people who assert that people who are born gay are dishonest.
But please - prove me wrong. How, precisely, am I (a person who believes people are born with a homosexual orientation) being dishonest?
Not true. I am here only to defend the entirely Biblical position that sinful dispositions most assuredly can be "transmitted" genetically. My argument is solidly grounded in Genesis 3, and in other Biblical texts. The fall damaged creation to its very core. It is therefore entirely to be expected that people can be born with genetic inclinations to engage in sinful behaviours of many kinds.