ARE GAY PEOPLE BORN THAT WAY ?

[Drew]

Further,I believe it does involve some dishonesty..if you dont agree,oh well.

"Oh well?" Do think its acceptable to come here and accuse others of dishonesty when you do not have a shred of evidence to support your assertion.

Is this what you consider responsible discussion to be?

I have not,nor ever will I ever believe that homosexuality is a trait defined by genetics for common sense reasons outlined in my first post.God would not have us born into a hardwired inclination to pursue a certain set of behavior,only to condemn us for it later.

Your argument here clearly does not work. Were you born, "programmed" to develop a generalized sex drive for the opposite sex when you reached sexual maturity? I certainly believe that I was. This means, yes, that I am sexually attracted to many women. If I were to act on that desire, God could rightfully condemn me.

So you see, being born with an inclination to engage in a certain behaviour does not, as you suggest, rob God of the legitimate right to "judge" us for acting out on that inclination.

 

[Drew]

I have a choice what person I kiss,whos hand I hold.

Of course, but that is not what the OP is asking. We are talking about whether a person is born "programmed" to be heterosexual or homosexual.

This does not state that we are genetically hardwired to follow any of these urges,however.

I never suggested otherwise.

It seems that there is confusion as to whether we are talking about whether a person is born destined to have homosexual inclinations or whether a person is born destined to engage in homosexual activity.

I believe the answer to the first question is "yes" - people are indeed born "programmed" to develop homosexual desires later in life. And I believe the answer to the second question is "no" - no one is "forced" to follow their genetically determined drives.

 

[Navigator]

What I tend to not understand about this debate is something that has easily been touched on, but I will go a step further...(and I'll try to be as unbiased as possible)

For those who believe it is a choice, I offer you a question: Why in the world would someone CHOOSE to be homosexual? The question seems simple, but think about it...did the gay kid in school have all the friends and was accepted by everyone? Uhhh...no...far from it in fact. The gay community has gotten SO much abuse from society. I'm not even gay and I know these things. In COLLEGE...a place where you are encouraged to come as you are and be accepted, or at the very least respected; I met a guy who turned out to be gay. I had no idea, but he brought it up on a Facebook chat. He was so worried that I would treat him differently or not want to talk at all simply because he was gay. He obviously had gone through situations like that before.

So I guess the point that I'm trying to ask/bring across is, if homosexuality is a choice, who in their right mind would choose it? Why would anyone choose to go through years and years of torment because of their sexual orientation? Why would anyone choose to align themselves with a group that practices acts that the majority of society say are "gross, disgusting, and sinful?" It's hard for me to believe that it is a choice, because that choice would go against all human nature...to avoid being hurt...

Like others have stated, for those who think homosexuality is genetic...can it truly change? I know someone mentioned earlier that they know someone who is a former homosexual who is now happily married with daughters, but this case seems rare and ideal. If I have problems with lust, it may be hard to change, but I CAN change. I CAN give up lust and marry a woman and be in a loving marriage with Christ as the center, and I would love nothing more. But what about homosexuals? If they are born the way they are, how are they expected to change? Are they destined to live lives of singleness while we enjoy marriage and partnership? These things are definitely up to God, but just analyzing them is confusing. Most other sins can be "cured," but it seems that homosexuality is a very tricky one. Why is that?

 

[handy]

Like others have stated, for those who think homosexuality is genetic...can it truly change? I know someone mentioned earlier that they know someone who is a former homosexual who is now happily married with daughters, but this case seems rare and ideal. If I have problems with lust, it may be hard to change, but I CAN change. I CAN give up lust and marry a woman and be in a loving marriage with Christ as the center, and I would love nothing more. But what about homosexuals? If they are born the way they are, how are they expected to change? Are they destined to live lives of singleness while we enjoy marriage and partnership? These things are definitely up to God, but just analyzing them is confusing. Most other sins can be "cured," but it seems that homosexuality is a very tricky one. Why is that?

I was the one who mentioned a friend who struggled with homosexuality from since he could remember... wanting to dress as a girl, be frilly and effeminiate and, once old enough, definitely attracted to guys instead of girls.

And yes, he has been married for 20+/- years now, with two daughters.

I think it's a mistake to say he is "cured" of homosexuality.

However, it's not a mistake to say that God has changed his desires and has made him... like He has made everybody who believes in Him, into a new creation. A new creation who's desires are in line with what God has deemed to be righteous.

He had is "Paul" moments... those moments we all experience when we are being tempted... really tempted to do those things we know that God has condemned but we have such a predilection to do. I know of his struggles, before he was married, of being attracted to guys, one guy that went to our church in particular.

Romans 7 is such a key portion of Scripture to understand here:

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? <sup class="versenum">25 </sup> Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

He concurred with the Law of God... he understood that homosexuality was sin... but he was still tempted to it. To me, it's immaterial that it be due to genetics or just a mindset... it was something he struggled with his entire life. And, although I haven't had a private conversation with him in years (and it's no longer appropriate for us to discuss intimate details of a sexual nature with each other, given we're married to others) it wouldn't surprise me a bit if, every now and then, the old temptations rear their head and he has to take those thoughts captive yet again.

But, this isn't to say that he sins or that he hasn't walked in victory for years. Sort of like an alcoholic who has for decades been sober... but knows that he cannot take even a sip of alcohol. Or, like my mom, who was convicted to stop smoking and even now... 40 years later, will see someone light up, smell the thing and be tempted to light up one for herself. She doesn't do it and for the most part, being around smokers is as distasteful to her as it is to me... but every now and then she must but that "old man" to death.

It would be "sadistic" of God to allow someone to be "hardwired" towards something and then say they can't partake... if He, Himself hadn't done all that needs to be done to allow us to be victorious in these matters. He does make new creations of us, He does promise that with temptations, we will be provided a way of escape, He forgives us when we fail and repent...

I don't buy that it's "dishonest" to think that homosexuality can be genetically hardwired into some people, because I know several homosexuals who never were "taught" or had a "reason" why they were gay... they just always were that way. (This doesn't discount the fact that some can be 'made gay' through sexual experiences.)

However, I also don't buy that, just because someone is gay this means that they have this awful choice of either being sinful or being doomed to be forever alone in life. That's is a deception. That false "either/or"....

What God does is show us that it isn't an "either/or" situation, but rather an "old man/new creation" in which His Spirit will be there to help someone struggling... in whatever sin they struggle with...to walk in victory.

 

[phantom309]

You were being disrespectful and rude - you had, and continue to have - no basis in fact for your generalization that people who assert that people who are born gay are dishonest.

But please - prove me wrong. How, precisely, am I (a person who believes people are born with a homosexual orientation) being dishonest?

As Ive stated,you can agree or disagree,it matters not..my intent was not to spark an argument but present my thoughts on it just as you and others have.Try reading the statement for what it is rather than looking for context to twist and bend to fit your own needs.

On the dishonesty issue,my comments still stand.I think its misleading to live a certain way,only to claim "I cant help it,I was born this way."That doesnt work out.As previously stated we all experience different desires,and it is our choice to decide which to follow.If my neighbor murders his wife,noone out there would even consider for a second that he couldnt help it because he was born that way.Likewise with thieves.The same for liars.And its no different for homosexuals.I went over this before,but since I think youre mainly looking to argue I dont expect you to recall that with any degree of accuracy.

As far as you being offended because I stated "oh well"..what should I do then,launch into a 3 piece tirade and obviously become unhinged just because you or others dont agree with me? It happens to us all at times,but I try to limit those reactions when I can.

The burden of proof is not on me..the bible has clearly laid out what we need on the topic,but you seem insistent on injecting your personal speculations into what should be an open and shut case.Yes,mankind is obviously broken.We all have the unexplainable urge to follow certain desires that God clearly says no on.Does this mean that we were changed at the genetic level,and that there exist certain genes that dictate what we choose?No.That is your own supposition with no factual basis.

I could turn the question around on you instead..prove it.Prove that we have a "gay" gene floating around in the pool somewhere.Right here,right now..lets see it,shall we?How precisely was the gene pool reconstructed to include a sin that hadnt even occurred at the time of the fall..providing we are speaking of adam and eve that is.How exactly did God rearrange the DNA to include this and why?

Should you be willing to see past your own arguments,you might discover that even if this mythical gene existed it really wouldnt matter.When God says dont mess with something,you either leave it alone or see the consequences later.No amount of reasoning,speculation or context twisting will change the facts.Considering that,your argument isnt with me..its likely that you are dissatisfied with the bibles position on homosexuality and sought to justify it to yourself somehow

Not true. I am here only to defend the entirely Biblical position that sinful dispositions most assuredly can be "transmitted" genetically. My argument is solidly grounded in Genesis 3, and in other Biblical texts. The fall damaged creation to its very core. It is therefore entirely to be expected that people can be born with genetic inclinations to engage in sinful behaviours of many kinds.

Really? I guess I have to disagree again.Seems to me that youre here to spit fire at anyone who disagrees with your x-men interpretation of the bible,though you clearly have no proof of it either.Yes,the fall damaged mankind,but we cant go about filling in the blanks with whatever magic marker we choose.None of us know why we act the way we do.It could be spiritual damage.It could be learned behavior imparted by the imperfect people around us.Or it could be genetic,but the fact is,we simply do not know..either of us.

I personally do not believe in the genetic possibility simply for the fact that as such we would essentially be set up for failure,and I do not see our good,loving and just God saddling us with particular failures only to judge us for them later.It makes no sense.Particularly when something He expresses a clear disgust for.That would be like handing out red shirts before delivering a beating to anyone wearing red shirts.

Again,you can agree or disagree..in the end it matters little to none.

 

[Navigator]

I was the one who mentioned a friend who struggled with homosexuality from since he could remember... wanting to dress as a girl, be frilly and effeminiate and, once old enough, definitely attracted to guys instead of girls.

And yes, he has been married for 20+/- years now, with two daughters.

I think it's a mistake to say he is "cured" of homosexuality.

However, it's not a mistake to say that God has changed his desires and has made him... like He has made everybody who believes in Him, into a new creation. A new creation who's desires are in line with what God has deemed to be righteous.

He had is "Paul" moments... those moments we all experience when we are being tempted... really tempted to do those things we know that God has condemned but we have such a predilection to do. I know of his struggles, before he was married, of being attracted to guys, one guy that went to our church in particular.

Romans 7 is such a key portion of Scripture to understand here:

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? <sup class="versenum">25 </sup> Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

He concurred with the Law of God... he understood that homosexuality was sin... but he was still tempted to it. To me, it's immaterial that it be due to genetics or just a mindset... it was something he struggled with his entire life. And, although I haven't had a private conversation with him in years (and it's no longer appropriate for us to discuss intimate details of a sexual nature with each other, given we're married to others) it wouldn't surprise me a bit if, every now and then, the old temptations rear their head and he has to take those thoughts captive yet again.

But, this isn't to say that he sins or that he hasn't walked in victory for years. Sort of like an alcoholic who has for decades been sober... but knows that he cannot take even a sip of alcohol. Or, like my mom, who was convicted to stop smoking and even now... 40 years later, will see someone light up, smell the thing and be tempted to light up one for herself. She doesn't do it and for the most part, being around smokers is as distasteful to her as it is to me... but every now and then she must but that "old man" to death.

It would be "sadistic" of God to allow someone to be "hardwired" towards something and then say they can't partake... if He, Himself hadn't done all that needs to be done to allow us to be victorious in these matters. He does make new creations of us, He does promise that with temptations, we will be provided a way of escape, He forgives us when we fail and repent...

I don't buy that it's "dishonest" to think that homosexuality can be genetically hardwired into some people, because I know several homosexuals who never were "taught" or had a "reason" why they were gay... they just always were that way. (This doesn't discount the fact that some can be 'made gay' through sexual experiences.)

However, I also don't buy that, just because someone is gay this means that they have this awful choice of either being sinful or being doomed to be forever alone in life. That's is a deception. That false "either/or"....

What God does is show us that it isn't an "either/or" situation, but rather an "old man/new creation" in which His Spirit will be there to help someone struggling... in whatever sin they struggle with...to walk in victory.

Well said and great choice of Scripture.

 

[Drew]

As Ive stated,you can agree or disagree,it matters not..my intent was not to spark an argument but present my thoughts on it just as you and others have.Try reading the statement for what it is rather than looking for context to twist and bend to fit your own needs.

What, and please be specific, have I twisted. Give us a statement I have made - anything - that shows that I am "twisting".

Let's remember: You stated that those who did not share your view were dishonest.

You have no evidence whatsoever to support such an ungenerous assertion.

 

[Drew]

On the dishonesty issue,my comments still stand.I think its misleading to live a certain way,only to claim "I cant help it,I was born this way."That doesnt work out.

Excuse me???

Let me remind readers what you posted:

To say that some people are "born gay" doesnt make much sense,and also involves a good deal of dishonesty.

Your initial claim (above) was that those who say people are born gay are being dishonest.

And now you are talking about the dishonesty of someone who says "I was born gay, I can't help it".

That is something entirely different.

Your original statement is simply without basis - you have given us no reason to believe that those who assert people are born gay are, in fact, dishonest.

 

[Mike]

What, and please be specific, have I twisted. Give us a statement I have made - anything - that shows that I am "twisting".

Let's remember: You stated that those who did not share your view were dishonest.

You have no evidence whatsoever to support such an ungenerous assertion.

Drew, I'm not convinced of either certainty, so I really don't have much at stake here in this thread. My observation is that you are making his statement about "dishonest" much more personal than it needs to be. IMHO, it's like you're anxious for an argument. It was his take on something that people on either side of this divisive (for whatever reason) issue have strong feelings about.

Not that I'm in either camp, but I can see how someone would think those who hold to men being born into this are being dishonest. It could appear that the agenda of some is to make them more like "victims" than responsible individuals. I'm not saying I agree with this, but I would say some people who fight for this stance probably do have this agenda.

I don't believe you do, and I'm not sure phantom does, so I don't understand the way you're taking this personally and escalating this argument.

To another thought that has emerged in this thread... Why would a guy in today's society actually choose the rough road of homosexuality? Some... Some guys seem to feed off the "us versus the world" mentality. They thrive in the counter-culture and feel a sort of brotherhood with the minority. So they get steep in the gay community where they are affirmed in their defiance of societal norms.

I definitely don't think this is the rule for all or even most, but I do believe some young men are motivated by this. It was asked why in the world a guy would put this on himself. IMHO, I believe this is true for some, even if it's the slim minority.

 

[Drew]

Really? I guess I have to disagree again.Seems to me that youre here to spit fire at anyone who disagrees with your x-men interpretation of the bible,though you clearly have no proof of it either.

This kind of inflammatory, nasty, and entirely statement is entirely without justification.

Moderators?

 

[phantom309]

This kind of inflammatory, nasty, and entirely statement is entirely without justification.

Moderators?

Again,really? Calm down man,were here to throw some ideas on the table,not pound the keyboard.This whole thing might work a bit better that way.For one demanding fair and inflammatory responses,youve displayed quite the contrary.How about we both step it down a notch?

Ive said before Im not here to intentionally stir anything up..if you agree,fine..if not,fine also.This issue isnt about me and you,its about the lives of people around us.If I see a topic on here and wish to post something I think might contribute,help or is otherwise relevant Im going to do so,just as you.So anyway,relax..just because we dont agree dont mean we have to rip and tear along the way.

 

[Drew]

For those who believe it is a choice, I offer you a question: Why in the world would someone CHOOSE to be homosexual? The question seems simple, but think about it...did the gay kid in school have all the friends and was accepted by everyone? Uhhh...no...far from it in fact. The gay community has gotten SO much abuse from society. I'm not even gay and I know these things.

Agree - it seems exceedingly hard to believe that someone would freely choose to embrace homosexuality, given the social stress such a choice will surely cause.

 

[Drew]

If my neighbor murders his wife,noone out there would even consider for a second that he couldnt help it because he was born that way.Likewise with thieves.The same for liars.And its no different for homosexuals.I went over this before,but since I think youre mainly looking to argue I dont expect you to recall that with any degree of accuracy.

You know nothing about me, so you have absolutely no basis to conclude that I am "here to argue".

Why do you think this? Because I dare to challenge your position? And how do you react to such challenges? You accuse me of "spitting fire".

I sometimes wonder if some churches actually teach their members how to employ nasty, vicious rhetoric when the force of the actual argument will not make the point.

 

[Drew]

If my neighbor murders his wife,noone out there would even consider for a second that he couldnt help it because he was born that way.

Who is saying anything like this? Certainly not me. I have never, of course, suggested that a person can "justify" their behaviour by saying "I was born this way". All I have done is to assert that people are likely born with a homosexual inclination. And you have provided no evidence against such a position. And, to be fair, I have likewise not provided evidence.

What I have done, however, is made a case that it would not be surprising if it turned out that (some) people are born with homosexual inclinations. Why? Precisely because of the nature of the fall - the very fabric, yes, the very DNA of our world was damaged.

So it would not surprising in the least if people were born with homosexual inclinations.

 

[Drew]

Drew, I'm not convinced of either certainty, so I really don't have much at stake here in this thread. My observation is that you are making his statement about "dishonest" much more personal than it needs to be. IMHO, it's like you're anxious for an argument.

It is simply unacceptable for a Christian to accuse other people of dishonesty without evidence. Surely you must agree with this. And if others are not to oing point this out, and try to elevat the level of discourse, I feel compelled to do so.

It was his take on something that people on either side of this divisive (for whatever reason) issue have strong feelings about.

And what if made a post that it is "my take" that you, Mike, are dishonest.

Would that be acceptable? Of course not.

The point is this - you cannot, in an adult discussion, simply claim that someone is being dishonest without evidence.

Let's be clear about this: Phantom clearly asserted that "those who say homosexuality is a choice" are engaging in dishonesty. Since when is it acceptable to make negative judgements about others without even a scintialla of evidence to support such a judgement.

 

[Drew]

The burden of proof is not on me..the bible has clearly laid out what we need on the topic,....

Really? Well where does the Bible say that people "choose" to have a homosexual orientation? Chapter and verse please?

Does this mean that we were changed at the genetic level,and that there exist certain genes that dictate what we choose?No.That is your own supposition with no factual basis.

I have quite clear about this - I fully concede that I have provided no evidence for the position that people are born with a homosexual orientation. But neither have you provided any evidence to the contrary. All I have ever said is that if it turns out that there is a "gay" gene, this would be entirely consistent with the teaching of the Bible about the nature of the fall.

 

[reba]

Agree - it seems exceedingly hard to believe that someone would freely choose to embrace homosexuality, given the social stress such a choice will surely cause.

Adam chose to sin. It is no different.

 

[Drew]

I could turn the question around on you instead..prove it.Prove that we have a "gay" gene floating around in the pool somewhere.Right here,right now..lets see it,shall we?How precisely was the gene pool reconstructed to include a sin that hadnt even occurred at the time of the fall..providing we are speaking of adam and eve that is.How exactly did God rearrange the DNA to include this and why?

As should be clear, I have never claimed that I have evidence of a "gay gene". So I am not sure why you are asking me this. But there is plenty of Biblical evidence to suggest that the nature of the fall is such as to damage nature at its most fundamental level.

So it would not be Biblically surprising if it turned out there was indeed a "gay gene".

 

[Drew]

Considering that,your argument isnt with me..its likely that you are dissatisfied with the bibles position on homosexuality and sought to justify it to yourself somehow

Once again, this is pure speculation on your part. The simple facts are these:

1. You expressed a position;
2. I challenged it;
3. You seem to think that my daring to disagree with you makes me dishonest, a troublemaker, and someone who rejects the authority of the Bible.

Is that reasonable?

 

[Drew]

I personally do not believe in the genetic possibility simply for the fact that as such we would essentially be set up for failure,and I do not see our good,loving and just God saddling us with particular failures only to judge us for them later.It makes no sense.Particularly when something He expresses a clear disgust for.That would be like handing out red shirts before delivering a beating to anyone wearing red shirts.

Again,you can agree or disagree..in the end it matters little to none.

Again, you simply have not engaged powerful counterarguments to your position. It is quite clear that most of us, as we enter adolescence, develop powerful heterosexual urges. And they are not, in most men at least, always directed to one woman. So it is clear that, yes, the world is such that we all have powerful urges that drive us towards sin.

I won't speculate why this is, but it is powerful evidence that even heterosexuals have to "battle" their sexual drives.

Using your logic, we would say that God has no "right" to judge us if we choose to act on our heterosexual impulses (outside of marriage).

So, tell us please. Are we being "set up for failure" when we are born with a heterosexual disposition?