Are some people destined for hell?

[Kenny_ms]

Wow! Not trying to incite anything here, but as I studied the scriptures my so-called Christian beliefs really changed over the years. Many posts here are not biblical, and are worried about someone predestined to damnation, thoughts about heaven, hell, etc. I know I don't see any of this like this at all. Or to put it another way, I don't think we even know what questions to ask. It's like someone explaining their entire foundational premise from a flat earth stance to answer everything about gravity. If the foundation is wrong, the whole thing is in error and becomes assumptions. I don't know where to begin with a thread like this so I guess I won't.

What posts did you not see as biblical?

I can't speak for the OP but I didn't see that they were "worried" so much as curious. But if they were worried about someones salvation, they won't be the first.

 

[Deborah13]

What I am asking about is those who are intelligent enough to know right from wrong, who CAN make good choices, but because of a physical defect in the brain, are incapable of FEELING happy for making the right choice.

I know you have training in this field so I'm not making a statement it's more just questions.
How do we know that a person, with these types of problems, are Really choosing for themselves? What I mean by that is do they comprehend why something is right or wrong? Is their conscience engage in their decisions?
Or are they just accepting what they are told is right or wrong? Because if this is the case, how can it be a lasting conviction (understanding or determination) to do what is right?
If there is no conviction in ones belief system, how can there be any joy in it? Where is the joy in doing what one is told by people without any rhyme or reason?

 

[tim-from-pa]

What posts did you not see as biblical?

I can't speak for the OP but I didn't see that they were "worried" so much as curious. But if they were worried about someones salvation, they won't be the first.

Sure. I'll cite a few (and this took awhile) so bandy it about thoughtfully as I backed up everything I said with scripture. Here's the main ones I noticed (various posts in italics, my answers in red)

is it possible that there are people who are born to damnation?

Why? The bible states that God is not willing any should perish, and that he will draw all men unto him. This BTW, does not necessarily take place in this age. The question presupposes this is the only age for salvation.

My faith in Christ has always led me to believe in free will- that people can CHOOSE to accept God

They can, at the time they are called. Christ clearly stated, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” and Paul also asserts that the mind is enmity against God and is not subject to the Law of God. So nobody chooses God by their own initiative.

age of accountability

Say what? Where does the bible say that? Oh, yeah, I know when Jesus hit 12 years of age.

IMO, they (children) are not saved, rather, they are safe and will reside in heaven with the Saints.

Yes that is just an opinion, but one I agree with that they are not saved, but will be given that opportunity when raised physically in the general resurrection. Rather, I want to direct where they are living, for Jesus said, “No man has ascended up to heaven.” They are asleep and so much for the the OT Saints being there in heaven before Christ came (e.g. the parable of the rich man and Lazarus). He clearly said no one ascended. How about after his death? Brings to mind the passage that Peter said in Acts, “...let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.” addressing the issue of the resurrection as it only happened to Christ.


or reject God and face an eternity in the only place He will be absent- Hell.

I know there's been enough of this bandied back and forth, but I want to point out that the real issue in assuming such a place is the belief in an immortal soul. Seems my bible teaches us that the soul that sins shall die. And Paul to Timothy said, “but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” So, immortality is granted. The traditional view is that hell is the absence of God. Yet, if one suffers forever, they are living in torment and exist as a being. Thus, they are immortal absent of God, or to put it another way, man's spirit by that doctrine can exist without God, something the bible emphatically denies by saying only God is immortal. Any other being is capable of being killed and annihilated.

On the other hand God is the only One who knows truly who will end up in Heaven.

Is this the gospel? Dying and going to heaven? The bible says that Jesus preached the gospel of the Kingdom, so that heaven is coming to earth. After the millennium there will be a new heaven and earth where men will dwell with God. I have no doubt that as spirit beings we can have access to it, but our lot is with Christ, who is coming back to rule and reign. Not up on a cloud somewhere.

...also, throughout the NT you have hints that salvation is for The Elect, not everybody. "and the sheep know His voice...", "...He causes all things to come together for the good of those who are called...",

Again, when? This again assumed salvation is only for today, and once one dies or the end of this age comes, that's it. This truly instills a very morbid fear in the “believer”. Me thinks a lot of people came to Christ for fire insurance, not because they want to do “the will of My Father” and love him. In that aspect, I feel sorry for God.

 

[turnorburn]

This is true, his sheep know his voice and Jesus tells us why in..

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

He knows from the beginning who will believe he is the Alpha and the Omega..

tob

 

[Kenny_ms]

Sure. I'll cite a few (and this took awhile) so bandy it about thoughtfully as I backed up everything I said with scripture. Here's the main ones I noticed (various posts in italics, my answers in red)

is it possible that there are people who are born to damnation?

Why? The bible states that God is not willing any should perish, and that he will draw all men unto him. This BTW, does not necessarily take place in this age. The question presupposes this is the only age for salvation.

It's a question, how can it be non biblical?

My faith in Christ has always led me to believe in free will- that people can CHOOSE to accept God

They can, at the time they are called. Christ clearly stated, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” and Paul also asserts that the mind is enmity against God and is not subject to the Law of God. So nobody chooses God by their own initiative.

This was not stated as a fact, it's what they admittedly "thought" was true because they were led to believe it, at least in their own mind so, not sure how it can be non biblical. But that may be a fine line, so no biggie either way, however, do we just throw out the "Whosoever" in John 3/16? We seem to have a discrepancy there. Also, maybe the the Father sent him to draw "everyone"? Just because the mind is against God, most certainly does not equate to us not choosing God by our own initiative. I may not like running across the street to avoid a building fire but I will "choose to" if it's in my general best interest or in this case, to stay alive. Yeah, I think you are way off there.

age of accountability

Say what? Where does the bible say that? Oh, yeah, I know when Jesus hit 12 years of age.

All I see is a 3 word thing there, not even enough to be a statement. I'll have to go back and see if they intended for that to be biblical.

IMO, they (children) are not saved, rather, they are safe and will reside in heaven with the Saints.

Yes that is just an opinion, but one I agree with that they are not saved, but will be given that opportunity when raised physically in the general resurrection. Rather, I want to direct where they are living, for Jesus said, “No man has ascended up to heaven.” They are asleep and so much for the the OT Saints being there in heaven before Christ came (e.g. the parable of the rich man and Lazarus). He clearly said no one ascended. How about after his death? Brings to mind the passage that Peter said in Acts, “...let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.” addressing the issue of the resurrection as it only happened to Christ.

OK, an opinion so you aren't saying that is or is not biblical?


or reject God and face an eternity in the only place He will be absent- Hell.

I know there's been enough of this bandied back and forth, but I want to point out that the real issue in assuming such a place is the belief in an immortal soul. Seems my bible teaches us that the soul that sins shall die. And Paul to Timothy said, “but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” So, immortality is granted. The traditional view is that hell is the absence of God. Yet, if one suffers forever, they are living in torment and exist as a being. Thus, they are immortal absent of God, or to put it another way, man's spirit by that doctrine can exist without God, something the bible emphatically denies by saying only God is immortal. Any other being is capable of being killed and annihilated.

I won't comment on if anyone is or isn't biblical on that one. I have questions about it myself and there are a few fair possibilities to draw on the issue, and all drawn from the word or....Biblical, if you will. Can't back it up with enough scripture to counter the scripture that would be used against the possibility, but my general opinion is the second death means just that. A time of punishment in the lake of fire, then complete destruction.

Matthew 10/28:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

On the other hand God is the only One who knows truly who will end up in Heaven.

Is this the gospel? Dying and going to heaven? The bible says that Jesus preached the gospel of the Kingdom, so that heaven is coming to earth. After the millennium there will be a new heaven and earth where men will dwell with God. I have no doubt that as spirit beings we can have access to it, but our lot is with Christ, who is coming back to rule and reign. Not up on a cloud somewhere.

If the term "dying and going to heaven" were used there, you forgot to quote it.

Either way, I don't see that as non biblical at all, but I do see you assuming that they didn't mean the very heaven you are talking about. I can't read their mind but I can say, it could well be just that.

...also, throughout the NT you have hints that salvation is for The Elect, not everybody. "and the sheep know His voice...", "...He causes all things to come together for the good of those who are called...",

Again, when? This again assumed salvation is only for today, and once one dies or the end of this age comes, that's it. This truly instills a very morbid fear in the “believer”. Me thinks a lot of people came to Christ for fire insurance, not because they want to do “the will of My Father” and love him. In that aspect, I feel sorry for God.

Not sure what you mean there.

Expand the quote for my comments in blue. Still haven't gotten the workings of the board down and don't want to repost it all.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Expand the quote for my comments in blue. Still haven't gotten the workings of the board down and don't want to repost it all.

Well your blue comments are very fluid to say the least, and basically I believe you are saying in all of them that nobody has this pinned down, but, as with the case of a question, you don't see that as non-biblical for asking it. I can agree with that, but by the very admissions in those quotes I commented on, my whole point is that the solution to the question(s) being sought are based on non-biblical assumptions, even though maybe they are even uncertain about those assumptions. In other words, one can't come to a valid conclusion if the premise is wrong. To cite specifically, I detect immortality of the soul doctrine, that salvation is basically the idea of going to heaven, age of accountability to explain the fate of those who are not old enough to make a choice, that salvation is only in this age, and misunderstanding of predestination for starters.

 

[jeff77]

Remember The Lounge is not a debate forum. Thank you.

 

[Mr. Bubbles]

My faith in Christ has always led me to believe in free will- that people can CHOOSE to accept God and an eternity with Him in Heaven, or reject God and face an eternity in the only place He will be absent- Hell.

When you say God, what you mean is a particular God named Yahweh.
Let's take the hypothetical example of a boy named Amar, born and raised in the city of Fez in Morocco to observant Muslim parents.
How much free will do you think he will need to muster to free himself of the delusions of his parents ?
While you ponder this, remember that in under Islam, the penalty for apostasy is death.
It seems that poor Amar has a choice between being murdered by his neighbors or even his own family or an eternity of torture by Yahweh for not exercising his free will properly.
I hope Amar chooses wisely because if 1.5 billion Muslims are right and Yahweh turns out to be the delusion and Allah is the one true God, Amar ( and you and I) will be - you guessed it - tortured for all eternity.

I find this vision of life so needlessly horrible that I wonder how anyone who believes in it can be truly happy.

I know God has made provision for those who do not know the difference between right and wrong, and who are incapable of choosing.

And how, exactly, do you know this ?


Mr. B.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Remember The Lounge is not a debate forum. Thank you.

My mistake. I read the board rules the other day and maybe i missed the specifics, so I was going by the fact some forums are marked "not a debate forum" and this one was not marked as such so I assumed it was OK.

Where is it written what forum does and what one doesn't allow debate?

 

[jeff77]

My mistake. I read the board rules the other day and maybe i missed the specifics, so I was going by the fact some forums are marked "not a debate forum" and this one was not marked as such so I assumed it was OK.

Where is it written what forum does and what one doesn't allow debate?

The Lounge
Settle in for some casual conversation and fellowship!

 

[jeff77]

That is the description on forum main page. The Apologetics and Theology is a forum for debate as long as it follows the ToS.

 

[Kenny_ms]

When you say God, what you mean is a particular God named Yahweh.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Thanks Jeff. So only Apologetics and Theology within the TOS? Correct?

 

[Kenny_ms]

I'm not trying to be a [Edited by Staff] here, honestly but at what point do we term anything a debate? Any disagreement/correction/discussion on the disagreement?

Seems like this may be tricky.

 

[jeff77]

Thanks Jeff. So only Apologetics and Theology within the TOS? Correct?

No, there are several and there is a one on one debate forum if you want. There will always be a little debate here and there in some of the non-debate forums like this one (The Lounge) but the title of this thread and anything having to do with hell usually ends up in a pretty heated debate. That is one reason it should be in the Apologetics and Theology forum. That forum is meant to be more formal and requires one to use scripture to support arguments.

 

[jeff77]

I'm not trying to be a nuisance here, honestly but at what point do we term anything a debate? Any disagreement/correction/discussion on the disagreement?

Seems like this may be tricky.

Read the descriptions under the forum sections on the main page. I was not directing any of this at you BTW. We are not too strict about it and we always have some here and there.

 

[Kenny_ms]

No, there are several and there is a one on one debate forum if you want.

Are the ones that are debate all marked as such at one place or another?

If not, I'll try my best to adhere .

Thanks again

 

[Kenny_ms]

Read the descriptions under the forum sections on the main page. I was not directing any of this at you BTW. We are not too strict about it and we always have some here and there.

OK, got it and I didn't really take it personally...just needed to know what was what.

 

[jeff77]

Read the descriptions under the forum sections on the main page. I was not directing any of this at you BTW. We are not too strict about it and we always have some here and there.

OK, got it and I didn't really take it personally...just needed to know what was what.

Ok

 

[tim-from-pa]

Remember The Lounge is not a debate forum. Thank you.

It's funny you should say this, as after I posted, I noticed that the path said Forums>General Discussion> Lounge. This did not go over well with me at all, so I just came back now thinking I would suggest that this get moved elsewhere, when I ran into your comment after my post! So we are on the same wavelength here regarding this. I said what I wanted and won't say any more here. But I agree, maybe apologetics or some place similar.