By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11:9-10
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Body, Soul, and Spirit
- Thread starter Butch5
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By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11:9-10
Doulos Iesou
Member
I'm not able to access my Logos at the moment, but I can cite some resources that support what I am saying. Would you like me to do that later?
Butch5
Member
How did those Hebrew Christians travel into space to go to the city?
It seems Paul is referring to Isaiah 65
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. {come...: Heb. come upon the heart}
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. (Isa 65:17-19 KJV)
The city whose builder and maker is God.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Let's look to the text again.
Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. Galatians 4:25-26 (ESV)
Being in slavery is in reference to being under the law, and how Hagar corresponds to present day Jerusalem, which is representative of slavery to the law. While Jerusalem that is above, the heavenly Jerusalem, corresponds to freedom in the Holy Spirit.
What is the Jerusalem above?
Butch5
Member
Sure, I'd appreciate that.
Doulos Iesou
Member
I'm not talking about a city in "space" either, that's a strawman. Obviously we don't hold that heaven exists in the same dimension as this. They use references to above though as referring to heaven.
The present Jerusalem and the Jerusalem above are contrasted in Galatians 4, and that we belong to the Jerusalem above, we are citizens of this heavenly city.
Let's look at the whole text.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, Hebrews 12:22-28 (ESV)
Just prior, the author is making a distinction against the Old Covenant represented by Sinai. The New Covenant, here is represented by Mount Zion (instead of Mount Sinai) and the heavenly Jerusalem. If you look closely, everything described represents heaven, and the author then goes on to draw a contrast between heaven and earth. That if the people of Israel refused him who warned them on earth (Moses), how will we escape punishment should be refuse Jesus who warns from heaven.
Everything described in 22-24 is about heaven, or it makes no sense to the context.
Doulos Iesou
Member
I'll have it for you later this evening I hope. If not, then I will be able to provide it tomorrow morning.
It is the third heaven where the river of life flows inside the bellies of born again christians that are still alive.
It's a place where the Father, the Son, Holy Spirit and Angels are at work in the lives of christians on earth, not a temporary dwelling place after you die.
John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."
Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city
Doulos Iesou
Member
Interesting, this "third heaven" is described as Paradise in 2 Corinthians 12, the same place Jesus said he would be with the thief on the cross.
As this is the abode of Christ, this is where Paul believes he will be once he departs from the flesh.
It appears we have come full circle, Scripture is resoundingly consistent on the matter. Perhaps something changed with the New Covenant that makes it different than the Old Covenant.
Because the translator who added the word Paradise in 2 Cor 12:3-4 is bias, just like the translator who added the comma before today in Luke 23:43.
Doulos Iesou
Member
You mean, every single translator who has made your Bibles is biased on this issue?
I already elaborated on the meaning of the word, and Paradise is an excellent rendering of it. It is the same Greek word in both passages regardless of how it is rendered, so your point is moot. Whether or not we render it garden or Paradise, they are both describing the same place it appears.
I also find it troubling that you assume so much dishonesty among our brothers in the faith who have blessed us with English translations of the text, which we rely on. Or that a Sovereign God would allow such rampant bias to deceive so many among his children.
Edward
2024 Supporter
it is a little bit unclear on the specifics, eh, brother? But coming from the position that (absent from the body, present with the lord, etc..) and that people's spirits go (somewhere) to wait for the great resurrection day, I (and others) think that before Christ came, the 'waiting area' was in (Paradise), and after Christ came, the 'waiting area' is now somewhere else, the third heaven perhaps. No one will precede anyone else for their transformation or rewards of course, but until then...they're there I believe. I've heard lots of testimonies of people who went and visited or had an NDE or whatever. All of these people do not lie. They go someplace where all people still look like people and are with the Lord. helping to prepare the marriage supper perhaps?
This third heaven that is spoken of, I liken to 'Gods office', it is his base of operations until after the judgement day and so forth when all will go to the new heaven and new earth and dwell together with God! (Praise God! that is going to be sooo good!)
Our biggest area of non-agreement seems to be that the dead are alive or not. To me, it is sort of a given that we do live on and continue to be conscious after we 'give up the ghost'.
jeff77
Member
I don't think this is likely at all. Do you have some kind of proof that the English translations could have been messed with?
Hi Jeff. Proof, yes I do.
The Greek word for Paradise is a place of blessedness, from the base meaning of garden ...
in the LXX for the Garden of Eden....
not the third heaven where ghostly figures after death walk around.
https://www.teknia.com/search/node/Paradise type:lexicon
The correct translation for 2 Cor 12:3-4 should read..And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to (heaven) and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
But the translator doesn't understand that Paradise refers to the Garden of Eden that will be restored on the New Earth. It's so obvious.
Rev 22 Eden Restored
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Your premise seems to be that Abraham waited in vain for a non-existent city that you claim is not real.
That is the point that I am making.
JLB
Butch5
Member
it is a little bit unclear on the specifics, eh, brother? But coming from the position that (absent from the body, present with the lord, etc..) and that people's spirits go (somewhere) to wait for the great resurrection day, I (and others) think that before Christ came, the 'waiting area' was in (Paradise), and after Christ came, the 'waiting area' is now somewhere else, the third heaven perhaps. No one will precede anyone else for their transformation or rewards of course, but until then...they're there I believe. I've heard lots of testimonies of people who went and visited or had an NDE or whatever. All of these people do not lie. They go someplace where all people still look like people and are with the Lord. helping to prepare the marriage supper perhaps?
This third heaven that is spoken of, I liken to 'Gods office', it is his base of operations until after the judgement day and so forth when all will go to the new heaven and new earth and dwell together with God! (Praise God! that is going to be sooo good!)
Our biggest area of non-agreement seems to be that the dead are alive or not. To me, it is sort of a given that we do live on and continue to be conscious after we 'give up the ghost'.
That is what has not been established. What lives on?
Butch5
Member
If paradise is in the third heaven and Jesus and the thief went there that day how was Jesus in the heart of the earth for three days?
Butch5
Member
Thanks!