Body, Soul, and Spirit

[digging]

There also is no range of meaning for this word to mean anything other than a variation of "today."

View attachment 4587
The variation we see in it's translation is either "today" or "this very day" or "very day."

The possible senses are:

today (noun)
The day that includes the present moment (as opposed to yesterday or tomorrow).

today [temporal] (adverb)
On this day as distinct from yesterday or tomorrow.

now = today (noun)
the present time, understood as the day that includes the present moment.

The usage of the word in Luke 23:43 is as an adverb, and explicitly temporal. There simply is no room for manipulating the text to change it's meaning from how it is always translated. The evidence doesn't suggest your interpretation, and you will not find a Greek scholar anywhere who would agree.

The 'day of the Lord' is more than just one day. So I have also considered and wondered IF this is the 'day' Jesus was referring to as the 'today'
Because the means of salvation through him was now at hand through his death. Like I said I can also see a meaning as if he was saying 'today is the day' yet we know that it is more than just one literal day.

1 Corinthians 5:5 NAS
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Digging

 

[Butch5]

What would "out of the body" mean to you? Or what would the words "caught up" seem to denote to you?

I was also connecting to the fact that this man was caught up to "third heaven" which was also called "paradise," which means it is a place that exists in the present that one can be "caught up" to.

If it's a vision does that mean it has to be a literal place that is currently in existence? In another post you made mention of paradise and the New Jerusalem.

Duolos---"This man was caught up into paradise, which is also described as "third heaven," which seems clear to me to probably be the same place. The Heavenly City of Jerusalem, in which the garden and the Tree of Life presently is and will descent to the Earth at the restoration of all things and the union of heaven and Earth.

Do you believe that the new Jerusalem will literally ascend from Heaven. That is what I understand from your statement. I don't believe that there is a city that will literally descend out of the sky to the Earth. The new Jerusalem is described by Jeremiah as the present Jerusalem restored.

17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD. (Isa 65:17-25 NKJ)

Jeremiah says weeping 'shall no longer' be heard in her. This indicates to me that the new Jerusalem is the one that now has weeping in it. If the new Jerusalem is actually not a present reality but a future reality and Paul talked about visions and revelations when speaking of the third Heaven and paradise. I don't see why his statement, whether in the body or out, has to be an actual event as opposed to an expression of a vision.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The 'day of the Lord' is more than just one day. So I have also considered and wondered IF this is the 'day' Jesus was referring to as the 'today'
Because the means of salvation through him was now at hand through his death. Like I said I can also see a meaning as if he was saying 'today is the day' yet we know that it is more than just one literal day.

1 Corinthians 5:5 NAS
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Digging

Today isn't a reference to any other day, it is a specific reference to this very day we are currently in.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

If it's a vision does that mean it has to be a literal place that is currently in existence? In another post you made mention of paradise and the New Jerusalem.

Duolos---"This man was caught up into paradise, which is also described as "third heaven," which seems clear to me to probably be the same place. The Heavenly City of Jerusalem, in which the garden and the Tree of Life presently is and will descent to the Earth at the restoration of all things and the union of heaven and Earth.

Do you believe that the new Jerusalem will literally ascend from Heaven. That is what I understand from your statement. I don't believe that there is a city that will literally descend out of the sky to the Earth. The new Jerusalem is described by Jeremiah as the present Jerusalem restored.

17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD. (Isa 65:17-25 NKJ)

Jeremiah says weeping 'shall no longer' be heard in her. This indicates to me that the new Jerusalem is the one that now has weeping in it. If the new Jerusalem is actually not a present reality but a future reality and Paul talked about visions and revelations when speaking of the third Heaven and paradise. I don't see why his statement, whether in the body or out, has to be an actual event as opposed to an expression of a vision.

Yes, I believe it will descend, or at least something like it.

What do you do with this text then?

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, Hebrews 12:22 (ESV)

 

[DRS81]

Well, it just so happens that the Bible presents the word another time besides here and Revelation, and it is in 2 Corinthians 12:3, here is the text.

And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 2 Corinthians 12:3 (ESV)

"Paradise" is akin to "third heaven," as v.2 says he was caught up to "third heaven," which is described as paradise in the subsequent verse.

This likely is the place where Jesus the thief were, to the place where this man was caught up to. "Third heaven" or "paradise."

Paradise in Greek is translated as a place of blessedness, from the base meaning of garden ... in the LXX for the Garden of Eden.

2 Cor 12:3 is working off translator bias just the same as putting the comma before today. It's probably the same translator that thinks ghosts are floating around somewhere. The truth is, is that this garden and the tree of life spoken of is a physical place on earth that will be restored one day (in the future) when eternity begins. It all goes back to Genesis, the New Earth and the tree of life.

Rev 22:1-5 Eden Restored

1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

 

[digging]

Today isn't a reference to any other day, it is a specific reference to this very day we are currently in.

Yes that's how I'm seeing it now, the 'day' began when Jesus died for us. Thus this makes me wonder that when he said 'today' he was referring to this new day that was about to be given through him.

Digging

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Paradise in Greek is translated as a place of blessedness, from the base meaning of garden ... in the LXX for the Garden of Eden.

2 Cor 12:3 is working off translator bias just the same as putting the comma before today. It's probably the same translator that thinks ghosts are floating around somewhere. The truth is, is that this garden and the tree of life spoken of is a physical place on earth that will be restored one day (in the future) when eternity begins. It all goes back to Genesis, the New Earth and the tree of life.

Have you been listening to that teacher Butch5 suggested? He likes to use the strawman of the ghost comparison too, and many of your arguments are also from that Pastor at Oasis Church.

Actually, the tree is located "down the great street of the city.." The tree of life and the Garden are parts of the Heavenly City of Jerusalem that will one day again be on Earth, in the New Creation.

The word "Paradise" is a better representation of the Greek word because it doesn't just denote a garden, I have had gardens before, but they weren't anything impressive to look at. The word "Paradise" better represents the grandeur and beauty that this garden would represent.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes that's how I'm seeing it now, the 'day' began when Jesus died for us. Thus this makes me wonder that when he said 'today' he was referring to this new day that was about to be given through him.

Digging

Well, you can believe whatever you want, and try to make it fit your presuppositions. The word "semeron" is never ever used in this way, and I already showed you the possible senses this word could convey, and this is not one of them.

 

[WIP]

Let's stay away from the personal comments please.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, I believe it will descend, or at least something like it.

What do you do with this text then?

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, Hebrews 12:22 (ESV)

I think Paul is contracting the Law and Faith. I think this passage is a reference to the new Jerusalem, but had they come to it literally or figuratively? I mean were they literally standing before the city? I don't believe they were. I think Paul saying that by becoming believes they are enrolled as citizens in that city. A few verses later Paul said that they had no city but were awaiting one.

14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. (Heb 13:14 KJV)

I think he is referring to the heavenly or new Jerusalem.

 

[DRS81]

The word "Paradise" is a better representation of the Greek word because it doesn't just denote a garden

It just fits into the whole aspect of scripture..Genesis, New Earth, restoration, tree of life. It all makes sense. What else does it denote.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It just fits into the whole aspect of scripture..Genesis, New Earth, restoration, tree of life. It all makes sense. What else does it denote.

What I am saying is that the exact place you're referencing presently exists in heaven right now, and will be restored to the earth when the heavenly Jerusalem is united with creation.

 

[Butch5]

Doulos,

Let me make sure I am understanding your argument correctly. Are you saying that 'today' is modifying "be with" rather than "I say" because it comes before "be with" and not before "I say"? Is that the fronted issue that you're referring to?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I think Paul is contracting the Law and Faith. I think this passage is a reference to the new Jerusalem, but had they come to it literally or figuratively? I mean were they literally standing before the city? I don't believe they were. I think Paul saying that by becoming believes they are enrolled as citizens in that city. A few verses later Paul said that they had no city but were awaiting one.

14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. (Heb 13:14 KJV)

I think he is referring to the heavenly or new Jerusalem.

Still yet, there are more texts that don't jive with this interpretation.

But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. Galatians 4:26 (ESV)

But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. Hebrews 11:16 (ESV)

All these texts and more seem to denote the fact that this city already exists in heaven, and Revelation then makes clear what happens to the city.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2 (ESV)

That the Jerusalem that is above (in heaven) will descend to the restored earth.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Doulos,

Let me make sure I am understanding your argument correctly. Are you saying that 'today' is modifying "be with "rather than "I say" because it comes before "be with" and not before "I say"? Is that the fronted issue that you're referring to?

It modifies the entire clause, but specifically informs the future indicative word translated "will be with," and designates that Jesus will be with the thief in Paradise on that very day.

 

[Butch5]

It modifies the entire clause, but specifically informs the future indicative word translated "will be with," and designates that Jesus will be with the thief in Paradise on that very day.

I know what you're saying, I'm asking the reason why you're saying it.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I know what you're saying, I'm asking the reason why you're saying it.

I'm saying it because of how Temporal framing works, authors will put the Temporal information at the initial position of the clause in order to indicate at what time the rest of the clause is taking place.

This is why Greek scholars translate it the way they do, not because of their theological bias. It has always been understood this way.

 

[DRS81]

But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. Galatians 4:26 (ESV)

Gal 4:26 Free is referring to John 8:36 Free. Freedom from sin is spiritual. Free is a metaphor for spiritual blessing.

 

[Butch5]

I'm saying it because of how Temporal framing works, authors will put the Temporal information at the initial position of the clause in order to indicate at what time the rest of the clause is taking place.

This is why Greek scholars translate it the way they do, not because of their theological bias. It has always been understood this way.

Where would I find the rules on "how Temporal framing works"? This is what I'm trying to get to. What are these rules?

 

[Butch5]

Still yet, there are more texts that don't jive with this interpretation.

But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. Galatians 4:26 (ESV)

But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. Hebrews 11:16 (ESV)

All these texts and more seem to denote the fact that this city already exists in heaven, and Revelation then makes clear what happens to the city.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2 (ESV)

That the Jerusalem that is above (in heaven) will descend to the restored earth.

Yes, and Paul speaks in concepts quite often, He used Sarah and Hagar as an allegory of the two covenants in Galatians. I don't think that Paul believed that there was a city in space that was going to descend on the earth. Heavenly is an adjective, heavenly doesn't mean in Heaven, but rather having qualities of Heaven. I think we're getting into things that haven't been established from the Scriptures. Let's look at the passage.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (Heb 12:22 KJV)

Mount Zion is where the present Jerusalem is. Paul said, "ye are come". If the new Jerusalem is actually a city in Heaven, then somehow these Hebrew Christians have found a way to travel the. It also would mean that there is a mount Zion in Heaven too. The letter to the Hebrews was to encourage the Hebrew Christians not to turn back because of the persecution they were receiving from non believing Jews.I believe Paul is giving his readers of what is coming in the future. If he's talking about a city that is in Heaven I don't see how that helps is readers in the present.