Both Apostles Are Right!

[Davies]

I know this subject has been hashed a thousand times before, but many people are still confused by the apparent contradiction. I've explained the congruence before but William Bacon Stevens puts it nicely.

- Davies


Both apostles are right!

(William Bacon Stevens, "Waiting and Watching!")

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" James 2:14

The religion of Jesus Christ is made up of two parts--faith and works.
Faith is the root of works.
Works are the fruit of faith.

A belief, however true and pure, if it is accepted only by the intellect, and is not carried out into practice--translating the faith held by the mind, into active duties--is a barren faith, which will not be accepted by God, and which will not secure salvation.

On the other hand, works, however good, which do not spring out of faith in the Lord Jesus, but which are done merely from human and worldly motives--are of no avail before God, because "whatever is not of faith, is sin."

Thrice has James told us, "Faith without works is dead!"
And just as distinctly has Paul declared, "By the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified in His sight."

Both apostles are right!

Works without faith--have no living root.
Faith without works--has no authenticating fruit.

They are the two parts of the one tree, namely, the root and the fruit. They are the two halves of the one whole--together they make up the true Christian.

"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by works, is dead!" James 2:17

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

[childeye]

Ther are always semantics because there are two different perspectives of the same Truth. These contrasting perspectives are viewed as Old and New Testament. Consequently terms reverse, for the Old Testament is about a man choosing to achieve life through the doing of ordinances according to a man's moral strength.
The New Testament is about admittimg we need the Spirit of God to accomplish the task wherein God is made strong through our weakness.

So when Paul is talking about works he is refering to the Old Testament point of view and James is refering to a New Testament point of view. The works of faith are not the same works of the law. The works of the law are for instance do not steal. But the works of the faith are charity and sharing with one another.

 

[reba]

Nicely said Davies

 

[HisSheep]

Bravo!

 

[JMJ]

I know this subject has been hashed a thousand times before, but many people are still confused by the apparent contradiction. I've explained the congruence before but William Bacon Stevens puts it nicely.

- Davies


Both apostles are right!

(William Bacon Stevens, "Waiting and Watching!")

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" James 2:14

The religion of Jesus Christ is made up of two parts--faith and works.
Faith is the root of works.
Works are the fruit of faith.

A belief, however true and pure, if it is accepted only by the intellect, and is not carried out into practice--translating the faith held by the mind, into active duties--is a barren faith, which will not be accepted by God, and which will not secure salvation.

On the other hand, works, however good, which do not spring out of faith in the Lord Jesus, but which are done merely from human and worldly motives--are of no avail before God, because "whatever is not of faith, is sin."

Thrice has James told us, "Faith without works is dead!"
And just as distinctly has Paul declared, "By the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified in His sight."

Both apostles are right!

Works without faith--have no living root.
Faith without works--has no authenticating fruit.

They are the two parts of the one tree, namely, the root and the fruit. They are the two halves of the one whole--together they make up the true Christian.

"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by works, is dead!" James 2:17

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Excellent post! Good job!

Even Satan believes that there is a God. And we do know exactly where he will spend eternity.

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Knowing that there is a God is a good thing to know.

Serving this God until death, which means to believe in Him, is the better thing and will qualify a person to enter into eternal life after he dies.

There is no belief in God without obedience to Him.

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,†and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 2:2-5 (NKJV)
2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

 

[JMJ]

And just as distinctly has Paul declared, "By the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified in His sight."

There is absolutely no contradiction. Paul and James were writing about two different types of laws. Paul was writing about the works of the law of Moses in the OC and James was writing about the works of the law of love in the NC.

No NT Christian can be justified by the works of the law which is referring to the works of the law of Moses of the OT.

Romans 10:5 NKJV
For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.â€

We are, however, justified by the works of the law of love also called the royal law.

Love is the fulfillment of the law of Moses. Jesus fulfilled/finished the Old Covenant law of Moses by His life, death, and resurrection. His death ratified His New Covenant with His Father. The OC is no longer in force.

Ephesians 2:11-16 NKJV
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Now, the Jew and the Greek who are in Christ are equal in stature before God:

1 Corinthians 12:13 NKJV
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:28 NKJV
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The law of Moses no longer applies. The law of love will always apply.

 

[Davies]

Thank you for your thoughts JMJ.

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

You're welcome.

Our own righteous works could not and did not redeem us from Adam's sin and make us righteous/justified, but the righteous works of the born again Christian do continue the justification that Jesus bought for him. If he remains justified until his death, he is approved to enter into eternal life.

Titus 3:5 NKJV
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

1 Corinthians 7:23 NKJV
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

Acts 14:22 NKJV
22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

What happens if a person believes for a while, but does not continue in the faith?

Luke 8:13 NKJV
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 12:13-46
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

What is this disobedient servant's portion? He is not approved to enter into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 NKJV
.....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Davies]

Hi JMJ,

You're not convincing me, and though I don't think you understand my position, I leave the original post as enough explanation.

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

Hi JMJ,

You're not convincing me, and though I don't think you understand my position, I leave the original post as enough explanation.

- Davies

I agree with you that there is no contradiction between what Paul and James teach. Both were teaching truth. However, in these two particular Scripture passages/verses, neither of them explained the whole truth about what is necessary for both a person's salvation and his entrance into eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-10 explains both of these requirements more completely:

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Neither our righteous works nor our works of the law of Moses initially save us. Only the blood of Jesus Christ does. However, after we have been saved by this grace of God, we must do the righteous works that God had prepared for us to do beforehand (before the world began) if we desire to enter into eternal life after we die.

Paul quotes Joel 2:32 and states that we have to call on the name of the Lord in order to be saved:

Romans 10:13
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Mark gives us further light on this topic:

Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Believe and be baptized is the command. Those who do not believe and those who are not baptized will not be saved. (There are three types of baptism which are able to save us, but this is not the thread to discuss this topic.)

Both belief/faith and Jesus' water baptism are necessary for our initial justification. This baptism makes us Jesus' disciples:

Matthew 28:19 (NKJV)
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Jesus warns against falling away from the faith which we also call losing our justification here:

Luke 8:13 (NKJV)
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus tells us what happens to these unhappy, fallen away Christians on Judgment Day:

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

Jesus' grace initially saves us if we believe and are baptized, but in order to enter into eternal life after we die, we must do the righteous works that His Father has prepared for us to do. Our righteous works include remaining obedient to His commandments.

 

[Slider]

You're welcome.

Our own righteous works could not and did not redeem us from Adam's sin and make us righteous/justified, but the righteous works of the born again Christian do continue the justification that Jesus bought for him. If he remains justified until his death, he is approved to enter into eternal life.

I must say I'm in the camp that doesn't believe they were on the same page. However, this answer is as close as it comes to my thoughts on the topic.

Isaiah said all our righteous works were as filthy rags. He prophecied heavily about Christ, so I tend to think that includes Christian's. Yet we are told in the New Testament, even from Paul, to do "good works". These aren't works of the flesh. Not even giving to charity or helping a person in need. "Good works" are works that pertain to Christ, since there is none good but one, that is God. So the only "good works" we can do are works of God, works for God, and works God does in us. If James is talking about those "works" then he is right. Ultimately he is, but James in the flesh wasn't talking about that. James still believed in works of the flesh. But unwittingly, he got it right spiritually.

Folks, it's going to take me a long time to explain that short paragraph.... Maybe over the next week I'll try to explain better. However, let me tell you a few things:

1. I don't believe Paul and James were bitter enemies, but rather had a respect for each other to some extent.
2. I believe the book of James is inspired, and should be in the Bible.
3. I don't believe the Bible has error, even the book of James.

Solomon said in Ecc to hear the conclusion of the whole matter, so please don't fly off the handle at me without quering me first. Thanks.

 

[Davies]

JMJ,

The same old argument that our deeds as Christians justifies doesn't make any sense. Our good deeds didn't justify to start with, and our good deeds as Christians doesn't justify us either. Though we were created for good works, they are only evidence of our faith, even then, God only knows the heart and whether the motivation behind our deeds was good. These works are part of the sanctification process, not the justification process. I don't buy your Romans Catholicism. I rejected in our earlier, private, conversation, and I reject it now in our public conversation.

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

I must say I'm in the camp that doesn't believe they were on the same page. However, this answer is as close as it comes to my thoughts on the topic.

Isaiah said all our righteous works were as filthy rags. He prophecied heavily about Christ, so I tend to think that includes Christian's. Yet we are told in the New Testament, even from Paul, to do "good works". These aren't works of the flesh. Not even giving to charity or helping a person in need. "Good works" are works that pertain to Christ, since there is none good but one, that is God. So the only "good works" we can do are works of God, works for God, and works God does in us. If James is talking about those "works" then he is right. Ultimately he is, but James in the flesh wasn't talking about that. James still believed in works of the flesh. But unwittingly, he got it right spiritually.

Folks, it's going to take me a long time to explain that short paragraph.... Maybe over the next week I'll try to explain better. However, let me tell you a few things:

1. I don't believe Paul and James were bitter enemies, but rather had a respect for each other to some extent.
2. I believe the book of James is inspired, and should be in the Bible.
3. I don't believe the Bible has error, even the book of James.

Solomon said in Ecc to hear the conclusion of the whole matter, so please don't fly off the handle at me without quering me first. Thanks.

Now, if you had said that John Mark was the cause of contention and division between Paul and Barnabas, I would had agreed with you immediately and would not need further explanation from you.

I do believe that James knew exactly what he was teaching.

I think a clarification is needed about the "goodness" of persons. God is all-good, but some persons are indeed called good. Jesus made this statement to see if the rich young ruler realized that He was God since he addressed Him as Good Teacher.

Matthew 19:16-17 16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Men can be good and righteous with the Holy Spirit's help.

Matthew 12:35 NKJV
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

Matthew 25:21 NKJV
His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

Acts 11:22-24 (NKJV)
22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch. 23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord. 24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.

In the Old Testament, some men were called righteous.

Genesis 7:1 NKJV
Then the LORD said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

In the New Testament, Cornelius, a gentile, was a righteous man.

Acts 10:1-3 (NKJV)
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”

Acts 10:34-35 (NKJV)
Preaching to Cornelius’ Household
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

We can have no righteousness apart from God.

RE: "Isaiah said all our righteous works were as filthy rags." Please give the Scripture notation for this statement. Thank you.

 

[JMJ]

JMJ,

The same old argument that our deeds as Christians justifies doesn't make any sense. Our good deeds didn't justify to start with, and our good deeds as Christians doesn't justify us either. Though we were created for good works, they are only evidence of our faith, even then, God only knows the heart and whether the motivation behind our deeds was good. These works are part of the sanctification process, not the justification process. I don't buy your Romans Catholicism. I rejected in our earlier, private, conversation, and I reject it now in our public conversation. - Davies

I wish the whole truth about salvation was not so hard for people to understand and I am saddened that it will be only a few people who will inherit eternal life compared to the many people who will be condemned to hell; and some of these will go to hell because of their lack of knowledge about the necessity of obeying God's commandments and so they are not diligent in keeping His commandments. I am posting on your thread because there are some people on this forum and perhaps even viewing this thread who are not blinded by prejudice and who are seeking to find the whole truth, no matter what it costs them when they find it.

There are two parts to justification. The first part: None of our own good works or works of the law of Moses could ever redeem us from Adam's sin. Only Jesus could and did redeem us from Adam's sin. No persons could ever enter into heaven after they died because of Adam's sin. That is why Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom with Abraham and not in heaven with God after they died. Abraham's bosom was a part of Hades, the abode of the dead. Jesus also justifies/forgives us from all of the personal sins we have on our souls at the time of our baptisms. I was washed, sanctified, and justified when I was baptized. I was made holy/sanctified and justified by my baptism. The second part: Now, I must remain holy/sanctified and justified until I die if I want to enter into eternal life.

1 Corinthians 6:8-11 (NKJV)
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

If Christians return to their former sinfulness, they will not inherit eternal life.

So, once we have been redeemed/justified from both Adam's sin and forgiven all of our own personal sins at the time of our baptism, we must continue our justification through obedience to God's commandments and maintaining good works until we die. If we continue our justification until we die, we are approved to enter into eternal life. If we do not continue our justification until we die, we are not approved to enter into eternal life.

Why does Paul give his brother Timothy this warning if good works do not matter for salvation?

1 Timothy 4:16 NIV
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Why did Paul instruct Timothy that women will be saved through the suffering of childbearing if they also continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety if suffering and good works did not count for justification and salvation?

1 Timothy 2:14-15 (NIV)
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Why does Paul instruct Timothy that a Christian believer who does not provide for his relatives has denied the Christian faith and so he is now worse off than a person who has never believed if good works and obedience are not necessary for salvation?

Timothy 5:8 (NIV)
8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Born again Christians who deny the faith of Jesus by their evil works do not inherit eternal life.

Titus 1:16 NKJV
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

It is your prerogative to believe whatever you wish, and it is your prerogative to reject whatever is not pleasing to your ears.


Both faith and righteous/good works are necessary in order to be approved to enter into eternal life. The sheep who did good works inherited eternal life, but the goats who did not do good works did not inherit eternal life.

We are all judged according to our works. I want to be sure that I will be numbered among the sheep/elect.

1 Peter 1:17 NKJV
And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;

I will continue to fear hell while I am on earth and so I will take care to obey God because hell fire is the everlasting consequence for all persons who participate in evil deeds/works.

John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

This is why Paul exhorts his flock:

Philippians 2:12-13 (NKJV)
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Faith plus good works is what approves a person to enter into eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:15 NKJV
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

James 1:12 NKJV
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

 

[Davies]

'STOP!, in the name of love, before you break my heart, think it o o ver.'

Name that tune.


- Davies

 

[Davies]

Statement of Faith (SoF)

We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance.

This is not my statement, and for those who patronize this site, they should be aware of what its doctrinal statements are.

Rules for Catholic Discussion

Terms of Service #3

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.

I would appreciate it, JMJ, if you would abide by this rule.

Thank you,

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

Statement of Faith (SoF)

We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance.

This is not my statement, and for those who patronize this site, they should be aware of what its doctrinal statements are.

Rules for Catholic Discussion

Terms of Service #3

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.

I would appreciate it, JMJ, if you would abide by this rule.

Thank you,

- Davies

Did you think that I was unaware of the rules of this Christian forum? As far as I know, I have followed them religiously. Pun intended.

I am discussing my own understanding of the Scriptures. I have quoted nothing except Scripture on this thread. I have not quoted any Catholic documents. My discussions are not Catholic in nature. My discussions are Scriptural in nature.

I am sharing my own understanding of the Scriptures. I reached this understanding by using logic and reason. Whether I happen to attend the Catholic Church's weekly worship service as a result of my own understanding of the Scriptures is irrelevant to discussions about the Scriptures on this forum.

Here is an easy yes or no question for you to answer:

Will born again Christians who do not obey God's commandments be approved by Jesus Christ to enter into eternal life after they die?

What Scriptures helped you to reach your conclusion?

I would appreciate it, Davies, if you would simply discuss the Scriptures instead of trying to browbeat me off this thread because I do not agree with your understanding of the Scriptures. Thank you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James is not lying, nor is he ignorant of truth. A man is indeed justified by what he does.

Paul is not lying either. A man is justified by what he believes.


And no, this is not a 'faith + works = salvation' doctrine.

 

[Davies]

Statement of Faith (SoF)

We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

Ignor = Ignorant
Chr = Christian
Hope = Hope


Ignor. I believe that Christ died for sinners; and that I shall be justified before God from the curse, through His gracious acceptance of my obedience to His law. Or thus, Christ makes my duties, that are religious, acceptable to His Father by virtue of His merits, and so shall I be justified.

Chr. Let me give an answer to this confession of thy faith:
1. Thou believest with a fantastical faith; for this faith is nowhere described in the word.
2. Thou belivest with a false faith; because it taketh justification from the personal righteousness of Christ, and applies it to thy own.
3. This faith maketh not Christ a justifier of thy person, but of they actions; and of thy person for thy actions' sake, which is false.
4. Therefore this faith is deceitful, even such as will leave thee under wrath in the day of God ALmighty: for true justifying faith puts the soul, as sensible of its lost condition by the law, upon flying for refuge unto Christ's righteousness (which righteousness of His is not an act of grace by which He maketh, for justification, thy obedience accepted with God, but His personal obedience to the law, in doing and suffering for us what that required at our hands); this righteousness, I say, true faith accepteth; under the skirt of which the soul being shrouded, and by it presented as spotless before God, it is accepted, and acquit from condemnation.

Ignor. What! would you have us trust to what Christ in His own person has done without us? This conceit would loosen the reins of our lust, and tolerate us to live as we list: for what matter how we live, if we may be justified by Christ's personal righteousness from all, when we believe it?

Chr. Ignorance is thy name, and as thy name is, so art thou: even this thy answer demonstrateth what I say. Ignorant thou art of what justifying righteousness is, and as ignorant how to secure thy soul through the faith of it, from the heavy wrath of God. Yea, thou also art ignorant of the true effects of saving faith in this righteousness of Christ, which is to bow and win over the heart to God in Christ, to love His name, His word, ways, and people, and not as thou ignorantly imaginest.

Hope. Ask him if ever he had Christ revealed to him from heaven.

Ignor. What! you are a man for revelations! I believe, that what both you and all the rest of you say about that matter, is but the fruit of distracted brains.

Hope. Why, man! Christ is so hid in God from the natural apprehensions of all flesh, that He cannot by any man be savingly known, unless God the Father reveals Him to them.

Ignor. That is your faith but no mine; yet mine, I doubt not, is as good as yours, though I have not in my head so many whimsies as you.

This excerpt is from The Pilgrim's Progress, John Bunyan. The danger of self-righteousness was well known long ago, especially when the Bible was made available to the common man.

- Davies