CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[GodsGrace]

Calvinists believe in Perseverance of the Saints.
This means that once God has chosen a person to save,
that person cannot fall away from faith or God's grace,
or their relationship with God.

Since the NT speaks of situations where saved persons DO fall away,
does this mean that calvinism incorrect in teaching about perseverance?


This is for rogerg , brightfame52 , Jethro Bodine ,
2nd Timothy Group

 

[GodsGrace]

Jethro Bodine asks brightfame52

Can you explain the contradiction that exists between Calvinism, which says unregenerate man is incapable of having spiritual understanding and enlightenment (he must first be born again to have that), and the enlightenment of the unsaved in Hebrews 6:4-6, which even Calvinism says is referring to the unsaved? Remember, Calvinism has to say Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about the unsaved, or else it has to concede that born again people can fall away. So you have to explain who these unsaved, yet spiritually enlightened people are in Hebrews 6:4-6. The very people you insist don't exist, and can't exist, because you have to be born again first to have that enlightenment. You say a person has to be born again, first, and then have the spiritual enlightenment referred to in Hebrews 6:4-6.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

I think the context shows us that it is definitely talking about saved born again people, not enlightened unsaved dabblers in the things of the Spirit who then reject them. Though it could include them, too, I suppose.

And some argue that the passage is saying that what is impossible is for the enlightened person to fall away. But it's very clear to me that the thing that is impossible for those who have been enlightened is to be restored to repentance, not that they can't fall away. The language makes that very clear. And that they can't be brought back to repentance not because they're unable to, but, apparently, because God does not allow it because it subjects Jesus to open shame.

 

[GodsGrace]

brightfame52

It would also be interesting to get a calvinists perspective on:

2 Peter 2:20-22
20And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before.
21It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.
22They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.”g And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

 

[rogerg]

Since the NT speaks of situations where saved persons DO fall away,
does this mean that calvinism incorrect in teaching about perseverance?

No. Saints are only those who have been saved and they cannot fall away.
Many people in the world knew/know Christ and His doctrine with a superficial humanistic knowledge,
yet have not been saved, nor given faith. For example, those disciples who
walked with Christ but left Him, left because their spiritual eyes had not been opened by God to
give spiritual understanding. They saw His miracles firsthand and knew Jesus and what He represented, but nevertheless, it did not find place within them - knowing and spiritual understanding/believing are very different things. Knowing is of/by man's intellect. Spiritual understanding/believing is only given through the Holy Spirit which the unsaved have not been given.

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[rogerg]

brightfame52

It would also be interesting to get a calvinists perspective on:

2 Peter 2:20-22
20And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before.
21It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.
22They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.”g And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

See my reply above. Knowing as opposed to spiritual understanding and believing are very different things - one by man's intellect, the other given by God through the Holy Spirit as a gift to those chosen

 

[rogerg]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

I think the context shows us that it is definitely talking about saved born again people, not enlightened unsaved dabblers in the things of the Spirit who then reject them. Though it could include them, too, I suppose.

And some argue that the passage is saying that what is impossible is for the enlightened person to fall away. But it's very clear to me that the thing that is impossible for those who have been enlightened is to be restored to repentance, not that they can't fall away. The language makes that very clear. And that they can't be brought back to repentance not because they're unable to, but, apparently, because God does not allow it because it subjects Jesus to open shame.

My reply to you from the other thread if it helps

You need to read 6:9 too

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

"the things that accompany salvation" are the things of verses 4 - 6 (among other things). And because Paul was persuaded of "better things of you" (of the saved), it meant that what he had said in 4 - 6 could not happen to them nor to any of the saved in general. The use of those verses by Paul were not to inform them of the possibility of their falling away, but instead that they could not fall away once saved. That Paul used 4 - 6 as a theoretical proposition and not an actual/possible proposition, was made clear by the phrase "though we thus speak" in 6:9.
Paul was using "what if" logic (so to speak) to make those of 6:9 (and all of the saved) to understand the ironclad promises of God in order to give comfort, confidence and reassurance to them by saying "the things that accompany salvation", which things, all of the saved were/are/will ever be, in possession of.
Salvation is eternal and once given by God it can't be ungiven, hence the word "eternal".

 

[GodsGrace]

My reply to you from the other thread if it helps

You need to read 6:9 too

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

"the things that accompany salvation" are the things of verses 4 - 6 (among other things). And because Paul was persuaded of "better things of you" (of the saved), it meant that what he had said in 4 - 6 could not happen to them nor to any of the saved in general. The use of those verses by Paul were not to inform them of the possibility of their falling away, but instead that they could not fall away once saved. That Paul used 4 - 6 as a theoretical proposition and not an actual/possible proposition, was made clear by the phrase "though we thus speak" in 6:9.
Paul was using "what if" logic (so to speak) to make those of 6:9 (and all of the saved) to understand the ironclad promises of God in order to give comfort, confidence and reassurance to them by saying "the things that accompany salvation", which things, all of the saved were/are/will ever be, in possession of.
Salvation is eternal and once given by God it can't be ungiven, hence the word "eternal".

The above is confusing.
Too late here.
Tomorrow.

 

[returntosender]

Calvinists believe in Perseverance of the Saints.
This means that once God has chosen a person to save,
that person cannot fall away from faith or God's grace,
or their relationship with God.

Since the NT speaks of situations where saved persons DO fall away,
does this mean that calvinism incorrect in teaching about perseverance?


This is for rogerg , brightfame52 , Jethro Bodine ,
2nd Timothy Group

So they don't have a choice?

 

[Hopeful]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

I think the context shows us that it is definitely talking about saved born again people, not enlightened unsaved dabblers in the things of the Spirit who then reject them. Though it could include them, too, I suppose.

And some argue that the passage is saying that what is impossible is for the enlightened person to fall away. But it's very clear to me that the thing that is impossible for those who have been enlightened is to be restored to repentance, not that they can't fall away. The language makes that very clear. And that they can't be brought back to repentance not because they're unable to, but, apparently, because God does not allow it because it subjects Jesus to open shame.

The reason the converted seem to have "fallen away" is because they have not been enlightened or tasted any of the Spirit's offerings to begin with.
Had they in fact been enlightened, they would never leave God's hands.

 

[Hopeful]

My reply to you from the other thread if it helps

You need to read 6:9 too

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

"the things that accompany salvation" are the things of verses 4 - 6 (among other things). And because Paul was persuaded of "better things of you" (of the saved), it meant that what he had said in 4 - 6 could not happen to them nor to any of the saved in general. The use of those verses by Paul were not to inform them of the possibility of their falling away, but instead that they could not fall away once saved. That Paul used 4 - 6 as a theoretical proposition and not an actual/possible proposition, was made clear by the phrase "though we thus speak" in 6:9.

Good point !
I agree, but that makes it for sure that those in verse 4-6 were NOT really converted.

Paul was using "what if" logic (so to speak) to make those of 6:9 (and all of the saved) to understand the ironclad promises of God in order to give comfort, confidence and reassurance to them by saying "the things that accompany salvation", which things, all of the saved were/are/will ever be, in possession of.
Salvation is eternal and once given by God it can't be ungiven, hence the word "eternal".

I am going to add your POV into my notes on sinless perfection.
Thanks.

 

[hawkman]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

I think the context shows us that it is definitely talking about saved born again people, not enlightened unsaved dabblers in the things of the Spirit who then reject them. Though it could include them, too, I suppose.

And some argue that the passage is saying that what is impossible is for the enlightened person to fall away. But it's very clear to me that the thing that is impossible for those who have been enlightened is to be restored to repentance, not that they can't fall away. The language makes that very clear. And that they can't be brought back to repentance not because they're unable to, but, apparently, because God does not allow it because it subjects Jesus to open shame.

This is my go-to verse that speaks to what you are saying here . In Jesus's own words .

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This is my go-to verse that speaks to what you are saying here . In Jesus's own words .

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

You do realize that no one in Christendom today considers themselves as "fit for the kingdom of God" nor do they see the need to make themselves fit. Being made "fit for the kingdom of God" has been left up to God to finish the work He, not they, started. I suppose many skip over that part though. Get out the black marker.

 

[rogerg]

Good point !
I agree, but that makes it for sure that those in verse 4-6 were NOT really converted.

Hopeful, sorry no, and my fault because I'm not doing a very good job of explaining this, so please bear with me.
What I'm trying to say is that there is no "those in verse 4-6", nor could there be. I believe that Paul was using
those verses as a hypothetical and as only a tool to say a falling away of the saved would be impossible (but we have to include 6:9 too) - that should it be possible for those who have been saved to fall away, then they can't be resaved (but we know this can't happen because salvation once given is eternal). Anyway, 4:6 wasn't the end of Paul's teaching on the subject. In 6:9 - the important part- he continues by saying, "better things of you and the things that accompany salvation". In other words, those who have been saved CANNOT FALL AWAY because the things that accompany salvation will not permit them to do so. Paul goes on to say, "though we thus speak", informing that 4:4 - 6 weren't actual possibilities but were used as a device to help him illustrate that message.
I believe that Paul, in this teaching, was demonstrating that those saved could not lose their salvation. He used 4-6,9, as a vehicle to illustrate that.
The "no man" and "any man" below substantiates that the saved cannot fall-away and are inclusive of all who have become saved and of those who will become saved - to include those saved plucking themselves out of God's hand.

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[Jhn 10:27-29 KJV]
27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

 

[jerry63935]

that person cannot fall away from faith or God's grace,
or their relationship with God.

those truly saved is what they believe as per your question minus reformed .that is a loaded question and depends on who you ask.. me personally i cant agree with Calvinism. i hold to free will

 

[jerry63935]

You do realize that no one in Christendom today considers themselves as "fit for the kingdom of God" nor do they see the need to make themselves fit. Being made "fit for the kingdom of God" has been left up to God to finish the work He, not they, started. I suppose many skip over that part though. Get out the black marker.

no we us ourselves are not !!!! but by the Grace of God and being redeemed By the Blood we are fit for the kingdom of God.. pretty sure that is referring reverting back to the old nature. he is saying Focus Hebrews looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith . if were not going to focus we will be all over the place.

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful, sorry no, and my fault because I'm not doing a very good job of explaining this, so please bear with me.

No problem.

What I'm trying to say is that there is no "those in verse 4-6", nor could there be.

I agree, as a sin would prove a lack of repentance in the first place.

I believe that Paul was using those verses as a hypothetical and as only a tool to say a falling away of the saved would be impossible (but we have to include 6:9 too) - that should it be possible for those who have been saved to fall away, then they can't be resaved (but we know this can't happen because salvation once given is eternal). Anyway, 4:6 wasn't the end of Paul's teaching on the subject. In 6:9 - the important part- he continues by saying, "better things of you and the things that accompany salvation". In other words, those who have been saved CANNOT FALL AWAY because the things that accompany salvation will not permit them to do so. Paul goes on to say, "though we thus speak", informing that 4:4 - 6 weren't actual possibilities but were used as a device to help him illustrate that message.
I believe that Paul, in this teaching, was demonstrating that those saved could not lose their salvation. He used 4-6,9, as a vehicle to illustrate that.
The "no man" and "any man" below substantiates that the saved cannot fall-away and are inclusive of all who have become saved and of those who will become saved - to include those saved plucking themselves out of God's hand.

While I don't think any man can say "I am saved" until they hear that their name is in the book of life on the last day,
the converted can say "I am converted".
You have an interesting perspective on this: a sort of "back-door" to what I preach.

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
[Jhn 10:27-29 KJV]
27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

Men will illustrate by their actions whose sheep they are until the last day.
Let's pray many more come to a true repentance from sin, before it is too late.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

no we us ourselves are not !!!! but by the Grace of God and being redeemed By the Blood we are fit for the kingdom of God.. pretty sure that is referring reverting back to the old nature. he is saying Focus Hebrews looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith . if were not going to focus we will be all over the place.

Exactly what I said.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. Saints are only those who have been saved and they cannot fall away.
Many people in the world knew/know Christ and His doctrine with a superficial humanistic knowledge,

This is certainly true.
Many followed Jesus...crowds, wherever He went when His miracles became known.
Some became disciples of His, and some did not.

yet have not been saved, nor given faith. For example, those disciples who
walked with Christ but left Him, left because their spiritual eyes had not been opened by God to
give spiritual understanding.

I agree with the above.
But where does the NT say that God has to open our eyes?

In fact, some scholars have plenty of "spiritual" understanding because they were once Christian,
but they either never believed, or stopped believing. It's like understanding that it hurts to be hit by a truck, but those hit understand it even more. Dr. Bart Ehrman comes to mind. After much study, he decided he didn't believe the NT anymore.

They saw His miracles firsthand and knew Jesus and what He represented, but nevertheless, it did not find place within them - knowing and spiritual understanding/believing are very different things. Knowing is of/by man's intellect. Spiritual understanding/believing is only given through the Holy Spirit which the unsaved have not been given.

Agreed of course.
Only the saved understand things spiritual in a really spiritual way.

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

We have to understand that all Scripture has to be reconciled with itself or the bible becomes an irrelevant book that we cannot trust.

God does not desire to harden hearts or blind persons or make them hard of hearing.

John 12:40 is referring Isaiah when he asked God about bringing His message to the people of Judah.
He wanted them to rely on the Lord for protection against Israel and Syria.
Isaiah 6:10 describes HOW the people would respond to him.
They would harden their hearts,
They would become spiritually deaf and blind.


Isaiah 6:10
That is, go and proclaim such "truth" to them as shall have this effect - as shall irritate, provoke, enrage them; truth, whose delivery shall be attended, in their gross and corrupt hearts, with this blinding and infatuating influence the effect would be produced by the corrupt state of their hearts, not by any native tendency of the truth, and still less by any direct divine influence. 'Go, and proclaim truth to a corrupt and sensual people, and the result will be that they will not hear; they are so wicked that they will not attend to it; they will become even more hardened; yet go, and though certain of producing this effect, still proclaim it;' see this passage explained in the notes at John 12:40.

Their ears heavy - Dull, stupid, insensible.

And shut their eyes - The word used here means "to spread over," and then to close. It denotes here the state of mind which is more and more indisposed to attend to the truth.

source: Barnes Notes on the Bible

 

[GodsGrace]

See my reply above. Knowing as opposed to spiritual understanding and believing are very different things - one by man's intellect, the other given by God through the Holy Spirit as a gift to those chosen

Ok, but what about the word AGAIN?


2 Peter 2:20-22
20And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before.
21It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.
22They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.”g And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

I think the idea that something is GIVEN to us by God, makes many verses not understandable.

The above states that people have escaped from the world,
BY KNOWING our Lord Jesus,
and then they get entangled by sin AGAIN....meaning they had left a life of sin,
they are worse off than BEFORE...before what? This means their UNSAVED condition,
they knew the way to RIGHTEOUSNESS, the unsaved are not righteous,
and THEN THEY REJECT living a holy life.
They RETURN to their life of sin (vomit).