Can an unbeliever speak in tongues?

[Classik]

With so many Christians faking it, why not?

During my kindergarten or thereabout...kinda, a preacher came and said he'd teach us how to speak. He ordered us to speak. We all began speaking babbles. Terrific!!! We were very young and stupid....thinking we were speaking in tongues. (perhaps some truly spoke. Who knows).

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Can someone choose nerver to receive the gift?

As there is no longer such a gift to receive, the choice won't have to be made.

 

[Obadiah]

...Terrific!!! We were very young and stupid....thinking we were speaking in tongues. (perhaps some truly spoke. Who knows).

If we accept the Bible as God's inspired word, and accept that God doesn't lie or change his mind, then there's an easy way to know if someone has the gift of tongues and is using it as God intended, or if they are showing off to make others think they are more advanced spiritually.

"If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)

Based on God's word I can say that I have never, not once, seen the gift of tongues used in the way God intends. I have seen what people claim is the gift of tongues countless times, but not once was it ever used Biblicaly. If this was truly a gift from God, he would not allow so many people to misuse it so often and not stop it. I have to conclude that every time I have seen the "gift of tongues" used, it was not truly a gift from God and was most likely faked. I'm not saying the gift doesn't exist anymore. That is a debatable area of theology, and I tend to side with the idea that tongues and the other spiritual gifts still exist. I've also seen hard evidence of it. But I have never seen the gift of tongues in particular, only seen what I have to conclude is faking or misuse based on God's word above.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I read it, and it does in fact seem to indicate that tongues are a thing of the past. "...And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."/ (NIV)

Yup. They were dying out even as Paul's ministry was winding down. The gifts of healing and prophecy (the "forthtelling" of the word of God) were also passing away. Indications of this were throughout his writings. For example, he left Trophimus ill at Miletus before he went to Rome for the last time (2 Timothy 4:20). If the gift of healing had not left him (and everyone else, too) he wouldn't have left so close a friend ill in a strange city. The canon of the Bible was closing at the time of Paul's writing to Timothy. In another 30 years, it would be complete, with John's Revelation. At that point, there was no longer a necessity for the confirming works of the Spirit on those who heard the gospel. The word of God was complete, the confirmation of its truth being the near-million changed lives by that time in history, and the strength of the growth of the church and faith in Christ proving itself worthy.

The gifts that remain are teaching, preaching, hospitality, administration, and others that help keep the gospel message going out into the world with the hearts and minds of believers to confirm it by their love and enthusiasm for their Savior.

 

[Deborah13]

Are we not grown-up enough to be able to accept differing views from different folks..... There is not one of us here who doesn't get the idea that pulling this verse or that verse, Plucking one from here tossing in one from over there we can force about anything from the Word of God... He wrote His Word the way He did. He could have formed a list again and made things black and white . We all know He didn't.... I believe He didn't because He loves us .. He loves me with my quirks and you with yours....He has given place to our quirks .... Consider the lilies and how
much more He cares for us...

I am not a anything goes Christian , any one who has read a couple posts would know that... This is not unto salvation. It is really OK to think a bit differently. From the Scripture , I do not see where those Jesus walked/talked with had to be the same. The personalities of the disciples and OT peoples come through and they are not the same....

Amen Reba,

 

[Deborah13]

Really? I haven't heard of Him telling anyone to slaughter their (or His) enemies, since Jesus died.
But He sure did so in the old testament.

When we read that "... He is the same forever..." it only means that He Himself does not change. That God Himself holds the same character, love, etc.
But it does NOT mean that His interaction with us does not change.

Yes, Jesus the same yesterday, today, and forever is speaking of His divine nature. Which I know I still don't have a complete understanding of.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

When we read that "... He is the same forever..." it only means that He Himself does not change. That God Himself holds the same character, love, etc.
But it does NOT mean that His interaction with us does not change.

Amen! That interaction changed dramatically with the advent of Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

If God plainly instructs us to only use a spiritual gift in a certain way and under specific circumstances, yet "they" consistently violate these clear instructions and yet are able to continue, that's pretty good proof for me that they are faking it on their own power and God is not behind it.

Really?
At the church in Corinth Paul didn't say they were faking, He said they were using it out of order. In a church were it is being used out of order the pastor is responsible to teach them correct order as per Paul.
However, as Paul says, there are the tongues used for the giving of a message from God and there are tongues used in prayer. And when praying in tongues in church it should not be done in away that is not disturbing to others.


However, if one choose to attend a church were tongues are used they should expect if they are sitting next to someone that they might hear them praying just as one may expect to here someone praying quietly in a language they understand. What if that person was praying in Spanish and you recognized that, would you accuse them of faking or would you maybe say that you didn't like them praying outloud so you could hear them?

 

[Deborah13]

I was just thinking...can someone choose whether or not to speak? It makes me shy to do that. Can someone choose nerver to receive the gift?

Did God force you to receive the gift of salvation or the gift of righteousness?
Does He force you to not sin?

God will not force you to operate in the gifts either....in my opinion looking at the above as being the answer NO. I'm not a Calvinist.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Really?
At the church in Corinth Paul didn't say they were faking, He said they were using it out of order. In a church were it is being used out of order the pastor is responsible to teach them correct order as per Paul.

That doesn't have anything to do with how tongues are "manifested" today. He isn't referring to Paul's guidelines. He's referring to his own observations submitted to spiritual discernment.

However, as Paul says, there are the tongues used for the giving of a message from God and there are tongues used in prayer. And when praying in tongues in church it should not be done in away that is not disturbing to others.

He doesn't differentiate this form of tongues being different or specially sustained after the confirming gifts (tongues, healing, "signs and wonders", prophecies) expired. They all did. The contention that a "prayer language" exists -- and most often I hear that it is used to protect the prayer from Satan (c'mon! really? ) -- is a construct to defend an unbiblical practice.

 

[Deborah13]

I read it, and it does in fact seem to indicate that tongues are a thing of the past. "...And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."/ (NIV)

Then you believe that all the gifts of the spirit are not given today to believers?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Then you believe that all the gifts of the spirit are not given today to believers?

There are more gifts of the Spirit than tongues, prophecy, healing, knowledge, etc. In the Bible, there are many spiritual gifts.

There are the ministry gifts:

• Apostle - An apostle establishes and builds churches; he's a church planter. An apostle may function in many or all of the ministry gifts. This office is now inactive, having been replaced by missionaries.
• Prophet - Prophet in the Greek means to "forth tell" in the sense of speaking for another. A prophet functions as God's mouth piece, speaking forth God's Word.
• Evangelist - An evangelist is called to be a witness for Jesus Christ. He works for the local church to bring people into the body of Christ where they can be discipled. He may evangelize through music, drama, preaching, and other creative ways.
• Pastor - The pastor is the shepherd of the people. He is called to stay, oversee, nurture and guide.
• Teacher - The teacher lays the foundation and is concerned with detail and accuracy. He delights in research to validate truth. He is shining light and opening up the Word for others to understand.

The manifestation gifts are the ones being discussed on this thread. In addition to tongues, there were the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, healing, and others, which have all passed away. Prophecy happens today, but only as it applies to the "forth telling" as outlined above, and directly from the written Word of God. Knowledge comes from the word of God, and as that is recorded for eternity now, there is no "special knowledge" given to one individual. Healing certainly occurs today, but not by the laying on of hands. I'm sure many can tell me about how Brother So-and-So laid hands on a friend, a relative, perhaps themselves and the miracle happened and that person got up and danced away from the bed. Not saying it didn't happen. But it didn't happen because someone "laid hands" on him/her.

The gifts that remain active, in addition to the ministry gifts listed above, are:

• The Gift of Teaching
• The Gift of Service
• The Gift of Exhortation
• The Gift of Giving
• The Gift of Organization
• The Gift of Mercy

I've left the links active so anyone who wants can explore them.

 

[Deborah13]

That doesn't have anything to do with how tongues are "manifested" today. He isn't referring to Paul's guidelines. He's referring to his own observations submitted to spiritual discernment.

He doesn't differentiate this form of tongues being different or specially sustained after the confirming gifts (tongues, healing, "signs and wonders", prophecies) expired. They all did. The contention that a "prayer language" exists -- and most often I hear that it is used to protect the prayer from Satan (c'mon! really? ) -- is a construct to defend an unbiblical practice.

Because this is a general talk forum I am not allowed to debate the scripture with you. So....


totopic

 

[Deborah13]

Because this is a general talk forum I am not allowed to debate the scripture with you. So....


totopic

I do think unbelievers can operate in an ungodly (not given by GOD) tongues.
Some may be faking some may be listening to another voice.

 

[Nick]

Because this is a general talk forum I am not allowed to debate the scripture with you. So....


totopic

Yes, you are. I might even move this to A&T anyway.

Sent from my HTC One SV using Tapatalk 2

 

[Obadiah]

Really?
At the church in Corinth Paul didn't say they were faking, He said they were using it out of order. In a church were it is being used out of order the pastor is responsible to teach them correct order as per Paul.
However, as Paul says, there are the tongues used for the giving of a message from God and there are tongues used in prayer. And when praying in tongues in church it should not be done in away that is not disturbing to others.


However, if one choose to attend a church were tongues are used they should expect if they are sitting next to someone that they might hear them praying just as one may expect to here someone praying quietly in a language they understand. What if that person was praying in Spanish and you recognized that, would you accuse them of faking or would you maybe say that you didn't like them praying outloud so you could hear them?

Now now, let's not be so defensive Deborah. We're just having a nice discussion here, not an argument. I haven't accused YOU of anything, have I? I certainly didn't mean too.

Paul said there should be interpretation. Why is there never interpretation? Are you saying it's not important to follow this scripture demanding interpretation just because he doesn't use the word "faking"?

I also am not referring to a person privately and quietly praying in tongues. I am referring to people who suddenly and loudly speak in gibberish that no one understands and no one interprets. That seems like it's pretty much against what Paul said, doesn't it?

As far as someone praying in Spanish, I think it's pretty clear that's not what we are referring to in this thread. If I know a person is an English speaker and has been all their lives, and I suddenly hear them speaking words neither I nor anyone else understands, it's pretty easy to assume they aren't suddenly speaking Spanish. Yes, I understand IF God chose to, He COULD give a person a miraculous ability to speak a human language that they didn't previously know in order to communicate the Gospel to someone who speaks only that language, but I don't think that's necessary in order for them to pray.

I have attended many different kinds of churches and am familiar with which kinds I can expect I might hear someone "speak in tongues". As with anything, if it is being done in an unscriptural way, the fact that I should expect that to happen doesn't justify it.

 

[Sparkey]

Now now, let's not be so defensive Deborah. We're just having a nice discussion here, not an argument. I haven't accused YOU of anything, have I? I certainly didn't mean too.

Paul said there should be interpretation. Why is there never interpretation? Are you saying it's not important to follow this scripture demanding interpretation just because he doesn't use the word "faking"?

I also am not referring to a person privately and quietly praying in tongues. I am referring to people who suddenly and loudly speak in gibberish that no one understands and no one interprets. That seems like it's pretty much against what Paul said, doesn't it?

As far as someone praying in Spanish, I think it's pretty clear that's not what we are referring to in this thread. If I know a person is an English speaker and has been all their lives, and I suddenly hear them speaking words neither I nor anyone else understands, it's pretty easy to assume they aren't suddenly speaking Spanish. Yes, I understand IF God chose to, He COULD give a person a miraculous ability to speak a human language that they didn't previously know in order to communicate the Gospel to someone who speaks only that language, but I don't think that's necessary in order for them to pray.

I have attended many different kinds of churches and am familiar with which kinds I can expect I might hear someone "speak in tongues". As with anything, if it is being done in an unscriptural way, the fact that I should expect that to happen doesn't justify it.

It's good that you notice the difference between praying quietly (perhaps alone in a prayer closet) and praying in an assembly of Christians. It's also good that you've noticed that even in church there is a distinction between those who are praying (in an unknown language) and those who operate the Gift of Tongues for the Assembly.

You say, "Paul said there should be interpretation. Why is there never interpretation?" -and- "I am referring to people who suddenly and loudly speak in gibberish that no one understands and no one interprets."

Paul makes the argument, "But if all prophesy, and there come in one unbelieving or unlearned, he is reproved by all, he is judged by all" showing the necessity of understanding, not using the word "gibberish" even once but instead pointing to the reason the gifts are given (to manifest the glory of God).

Paul didn't say, "And if there be no interpreter...", in verse 28, then let him who spoke in tongues be branded a faker and let others call the Gift of God gibberish. No. What he said was, "but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Paul does not advocate fakers and does not call tongues gibberish.

 

[seagullplayer]

I would encourage anyone with interest on this topic to open their Bibles to 1 Corinthians 12. The gifts of the Spirit come from the Holy Spirit alone. The first three verses of 1 Corinthians 12 make it clear that the gifts of the Spirit will only be given to those who proclaim Christ as Lord. Another thing you will note is that in none of the passages regarding the Gifts of the Spirit is there any mention of any of these gifts passing away. Just because there are wolves among the flock claiming to have something they do not, this is no reason to believe the more miraculous gifts have passed away. Keep in mind that God does not change, so why would we are wise to recognize that the more miraculous sign gifts may just be more rare than they once were.

Great Scripture reference, I like to go ahead and read chapter 13 and 14, they kind of tie together and help give understanding of this topic. IMO

 

[Obadiah]

...Paul didn't say, "And if there be no interpreter...", in verse 28, then let him who spoke in tongues be branded a faker and let others call the Gift of God gibberish. No. What he said was, "but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Paul does not advocate fakers and does not call tongues gibberish.

I agree, but I never called the actual real gift from God "gibberish". You have misunderstood. But we are to discern what is from God and what is not, aren't we? And how can we have any hope of doing that other than by comparing what we see to what scripture tells us? If God's word says one thing, and I see people consistently demonstrating the opposite, wouldn't you agree that it is reasonable for me to discern that what they are doing is not of God? Or isn't a violation scripture a good enough reason to discern this? Since tongues is about the easiest gift I can think of to fake, wouldn't you agree that it is certainly possible that some people (maybe even a lot of people) do actually fake it in in order to look more "advanced" in front of their peers? As evidence for my point, I personally know two people who used to "speak in tongues" and years later, after becoming more mature in their faith, admitted to me that they had just been faking it. So, yes, even though Paul wasn't specifically addressing people who were faking it in that passage, it certainly does happen! I tend to believe violation of that scripture is an indication that either the gift is being faked, or the gift is being used at a time or in a way that wasn't God's will.

When I talk about gibberish, I am talking about the sounds a person who is faking it makes, not referring to a person who actually has the gift of tongues from God and is using it properly. That's why I believe that, yes, an unbeliever can "speak in tongues", or at least fake it in a way that he appears to be doing it. When Paul was talking about tongues, he was talking about the proper use of the actual gift from God. I don't think he was talking about people who were just faking it, so of course he didn't refer to it as gibberish. But gibberish is exactly what does come out of the mouth of someone who IS faking the gift of tongues for their own glory. There is nothing wrong with referring to it as that.

I have nothing against the gift of tongues if indeed it still actually exists. I know that is an area of theological debate that has valid arguments on both sides, but I personally tend to believe that at least some form of tongues is still used by God today. I just can't say that as far as I know I've ever personally witnessed it in a way that was convincing and scriptural. As with anything concerning matters of God, if someone is claiming they are being directed by God in some miraculous way, but what they are doing violates scripture, I have to discern that they are not really being directed by God.

Isn't it interesting to note that in this thread there are those who obviously believe in tongues, yet none have spoken up to defend it by sharing that in their experience they have seen the interpretation to go along with it on a regular basis, and when there has been no interpretation, the pastor or other leader has stepped in and corrected the person doing the speaking? I'm sure it happens, but this kind of leads me to believe that my experience of consistently witnessing the misuse or faking is far more the norm.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Is the gift of tongues for today? First Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10. While there is room for argument regarding the clarity of when, exactly, the "perfect" arrived, or, perhaps when it arrives, This much is clear: Jesus cannot be "the perfect." The word is teleios and it is gender neutral in this case. That would indicate not a person, but an event or a concept, such as the "perfect will of God", "perfect" being the word teleios. This key Greek word can have a masculine intent, such as when Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all his possessions if he wants to be "complete (teleios)" because the reference is to the young man himself. However, the modifiers in the Greek in the 1 Corinthians 13:8 usage force us to accept that this use of teleios is gender neutral. So, what event could it possibly be talking about?

As we've seen, "perfect" and "complete" are both accurate translations in the Greek. The word does, in fact, mean both. Completion, in the Greek context, means "perfect." So, what, rather than being perfect, would be complete at the time Paul was writing? The canon of Scripture. Paul was aware the the gifts were fading even as was his own life and ministry in that Roman rental house where he was held captive. He had left Trophimus lying ill at Miletus. If the gift of healing, for example, was not fading or had not faded altogether by that time, why would Paul leave one of his good friends and associates lying ill in a foreign city? Please don't raise the specter of "lack of faith" because the argument doesn't hold water in comparison to the gospel. The fact is, the gifts were all fading, just as Paul wrote of them in 1 Corinthians 13.

In fairness to the discussion, we can look at alternatives to the usage of tongues as practiced in Corinth. Some point to passages such as Isaiah 28:11 and Joel 2:28-29 as evidence that speaking in tongues was a sign of God's oncoming judgment. First Corinthians 14:22 describes tongues as a “sign to unbelievers.” According to this argument, the gift of tongues was a warning to the Jews that God was going to judge Israel for rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah. Therefore, when God did in fact judge Israel (with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70), the gift of tongues would no longer serve its intended purpose. While this view is possible, the primary purpose of tongues being fulfilled does not necessarily demand its cessation. It could still be argued, given the somewhat vague nature of the 13th chapter, that Scripture does not conclusively assert that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased. Argued, but not proven to still be active, either.

At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two -- or at the most three -- should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him or her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. If it was absolutely necessary for Him to do so to bring a person or a nation to Christ, He would do it, without delay. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11). Just imagine how much more productive missionaries could be if they did not have to go to language school, and were instantly able to speak to people in their own language. However, God does not seem to be doing this. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the manner it did in the New Testament, despite the fact that it would be immensely useful.

Here is the meat of the issue: The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today.