But that would be less specific. My stance is summarized in the last sentence of my earlier post: "Thus, while humans have a will (the capacity to choose - or, more accurately, the capacity to choose within the scope of our nature), we don't have "free" will (the right to choose or, more specifically, the right to choose evil)."
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Can it be proved, without a doubt, there's no free will spoken of in the Bible
- Thread starter Grubal Muruch
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Grubal Muruch
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Your not making sense...
Grubal Muruch
Member
Chan, What do you mean by saying, "we don't have "free-will" to choose to do evil...Of course we do...
But, again, are we referring to the capacity/ability to choose (will) or the right to choose ("free" will)? Freedom necessitates having rights; there is no freedom without rights. If man's will is free, then he has the right to choose evil. If he has the right to choose evil then how can God punish him for exercising that right, particularly if (as is often presumed) God gave man free will?
Read my earlier posts where I distinguish between the capacity/ability to choose (will) and the right to choose ("free" will). The fact that God punishes sin means that God didn't give us the right to choose sin.
Grubal Muruch
Member
We have the ability to choose. Because God has created us so...Therefore, you could say, "we have the right, due to the fact we we're created with the ability to choose...
The ability to choose is not the right to choose. We have the ability to commit murder, but we don't have the right to commit murder. Rights, in this context, means a just claim or title, whether legal, prescriptive, or moral. Are you saying we have a just claim or title to sin? If so, then on what basis does God punish us for appropriating that just claim or title?
Grubal Muruch
Member
God desires us, not to sin, however, because we "have the choice to sin" He must judge sin, because He is a "righteous God." We, because of Adam are sinners. We are influenced to sin by, the world, the flesh, and the devil. We're talking here, of the "carnal" man who is unsaved, and has not, the Holy Spirit influencing him...
God doesn't merely desire that we don't sin, He commands us not to sin.
Where does the Bible say that we have the right to choose sin? It doesn't. Again, having the capacity to choose sin (which we do have, thanks to Adam) is not the right to choose sin. You're confusing capacity with rights.
Grubal Muruch
Member
We were originally created (Adam and Eve) with an ability to choose. (call it, free-will, choice, will etc.) God told Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam "choose" to be disobedient and sinned... God created, "no robots or puppets" that were there to only do His bidding. God had fellowship with Adam in the garden (they walked in the cool of the day together) Sin broke off the fellowship...
Grubal Muruch
Member
We have the "ability" to choose sin, we have the ability to not choose sin (in any given situation) God does not, give us the "right" to sin, He gives us the right to "choose" to sin...
No, I'm not going to call it "free will" because in order for the will to be free, we must have the right to choose. We do, however, have a will (the capacity to choose). God created Adam and Eve and we inherited our characteristics (including a will) from them.
We agree that there is a capacity/ability to choose (as evidenced by the fact that we make choices). That ability/capacity to choose is the very definition of "will." However, the will is not "free" because we don't have the right to choose, and the proof of this is in the fact that God punishes sin.
Again, you're confusing capacity with freedom/rights. We have the capacity/ability to choose to commit murder, but we don't have the freedom/right to commit murder.
I'll approach this from another angle and say that we don't have "free will" because our will is enslaved to our sinful nature. I doubt you're willing to do so, but I recommend reading Martin Luther's The Bondage of the Will (http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm).
Grubal Muruch
Member
I'm not "condoning" nor advocating that God gives humanity "Carte Blanche" to commit whatever "heinous" evil they so desire...But certainly He gave the first man Adam the ability to choose, and that self same ability belongs to ALL of mankind...We cannot come to God without first, hearing the word, then receiving the conviction of the Spirit, then placing our (human, God given ability) faith in Christ as Lord and Savior...It's not as if God, so choose who He would save before the foundation of the world and condemned the rest of humanity to everlasting punishment. That would be "heresy."
Grubal Muruch
Member
I have very little interest in the teachings of Luther, Calvin, or Arminius...I only look to the Word (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) for truth, not mere mortals...These men and others are fallible...God and His Word are not...
Grubal Muruch
Member
A definition of free will would be, "Free will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints." God does not stop the sinner from "choosing" to sin...He does not "constrain" us from making our own choices...
Thus, God doesn't give man the right to choose and, thus, doesn't give man "free" will.
As I said earlier, we agree on this point. What exactly is it that you're disputing?
This part is not relevant to the discussion, but we partly disagree. While we cannot come to God without first hearing the word (as Paul said in Romans), receiving the conviction of the Spirit (though there's really more to it than that: we must also be regenerated), and putting our trust in Christ (by the faith that is, itself, the gift of God - see Ephesians 2:8-9), God did, in fact, choose from before the foundation of the world those whom He would save (see Ephesians 1:4-5; that doesn't mean, however that He chose everyone else to not be saved, He merely didn't choose them to be saved). No one, on their own, can be saved (Jesus said about salvation in Matthew 19 that with man this is impossible, and He said in John 6 that those whom the Father gave Him will come to Him). If God didn't choose anyone to be saved, no one would be saved (because, again, with man salvation is impossible and, according to Romans 3, there is none that seeks after God). Notice the progression in Romans 8:29-30 (ESV): "For those whom he foreknew he also http://www.esvbible.org/1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5; Ephesians 1:11; Romans 9:23/predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also http://www.esvbible.org/John 17:22; Hebrews 2:10/glorified." But, this whole issue of how God brings about salvation is for another thread.
Okay, I'm going to bed now. Good night.
But that would be an inaccurate definition because freedom is equated with rights. What you've defined is merely will. By the way, we agree that there is the ability to make choices and that God doesn't (well, not usually, there was that time when God used a donkey to stop a prophet from exercising the choice he made).
Grubal Muruch
Member
Re: Can it be proved, without a doubt, ther,e's no free will spoken of in the Bible
Chan-----Thus, God doesn't give man the right to choose and, thus, doesn't give man "free" will.
Grubal----I'm afraid your "badly" mistaken, it's quite the contrary my friend and fellow poster. You've drawn a wrong conclusion due to your past indoctrination's. Whatever they be...
Chan----- God did, in fact, choose from before the foundation of the world those whom He would save (see Ephesians 1:4-5; that doesn't mean, however that He chose everyone else to not be saved
Grubal-----By "choosing" the "elect" He also "choose the rest for everlasting punishment...Logic dictates that, it goes "both" ways...Your showing you only believe in "partial election." Some of your ilk believe it goes both ways. So you have a dispute within your ranks...
Chan----and putting our trust in Christ (by the faith that is, itself, the gift of God - see Ephesians 2:8-9)
Grubal----The "gift" of God in those verses, isn't speaking of "faith" but is speaking of "Grace" being the gift...
In the end analysis, God's Grace through Christ, is offered to ALL of mankind. However, not ALL will receive it. In order to receive the gift, we must place our faith in Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. There are some who "cannot" see the numerous mentions of man's faith in the Bible...I believe they are "blinded" by their own past and present "false" indoctrination's...God wants His gift "accessible" (through His word) to an entire world of lost sinners. But some, work to "block that truth."
Chan-----Thus, God doesn't give man the right to choose and, thus, doesn't give man "free" will.
Grubal----I'm afraid your "badly" mistaken, it's quite the contrary my friend and fellow poster. You've drawn a wrong conclusion due to your past indoctrination's. Whatever they be...
Chan----- God did, in fact, choose from before the foundation of the world those whom He would save (see Ephesians 1:4-5; that doesn't mean, however that He chose everyone else to not be saved
Grubal-----By "choosing" the "elect" He also "choose the rest for everlasting punishment...Logic dictates that, it goes "both" ways...Your showing you only believe in "partial election." Some of your ilk believe it goes both ways. So you have a dispute within your ranks...
Chan----and putting our trust in Christ (by the faith that is, itself, the gift of God - see Ephesians 2:8-9)
Grubal----The "gift" of God in those verses, isn't speaking of "faith" but is speaking of "Grace" being the gift...
In the end analysis, God's Grace through Christ, is offered to ALL of mankind. However, not ALL will receive it. In order to receive the gift, we must place our faith in Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. There are some who "cannot" see the numerous mentions of man's faith in the Bible...I believe they are "blinded" by their own past and present "false" indoctrination's...God wants His gift "accessible" (through His word) to an entire world of lost sinners. But some, work to "block that truth."
smaller
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You obviously don't get it and can't see it.
Temptation begins in thought. That places the tempter 'in the mind.'
s
Re: Can it be proved, without a doubt, ther,e's no free will spoken of in the Bible
So, then, your own statement that you're "not condoning nor advocating that God gives humanity Carte Blanche to commit whatever heinous evil they so desire" was wrong? God giving humanity "Carte Blanche to commit whatever heinous evil" we want is giving us the right to choose. It's clear you don't believe that we have the right to choose whatever we want, and we agree that humans have the capacity/ability to choose sin; so, I really don't know what it is you're disputing.
Again, all this other stuff is getting us off the topic of this thread. Bringing us back on topic, I'll say what I said earlier, that there isn't so much as a single passage of scripture that says there is or isn't "free will," but that the views one way or the other are merely interpretations of various scriptures pulled together. What you and others describe as "free will" is merely the definition of "will" (the capacity/ability to choose).
So, then, your own statement that you're "not condoning nor advocating that God gives humanity Carte Blanche to commit whatever heinous evil they so desire" was wrong? God giving humanity "Carte Blanche to commit whatever heinous evil" we want is giving us the right to choose. It's clear you don't believe that we have the right to choose whatever we want, and we agree that humans have the capacity/ability to choose sin; so, I really don't know what it is you're disputing.
You're doing what most people who recoil against Calvinism do: argue against it by arguing against hypercalvinism. The scripture says that God predestined those whom He would save (and that He then called, justified, sanctified, and glorified them); it doesn't say He predestined everyone else to not be saved (though they certainly aren't going to be saved). And even if you argue that He predestines both, so what? If God didn't choose to save some, no one would be saved because we can't save ourselves. But, I'm not going to discuss this with you any further in this thread because it is taking us off the topic of the thread. Let's just stick to the topic of the thread here.
Well, no, that can't be right. The passage says that the gift is not of ourselves; it wouldn't make sense for Paul to say that grace is not of ourselves since grace is unmerited favor. No, the phrase "and that not of yourselves, but is the gift of God" refers to the word that comes directly before it (faith). But, again, this is not relevant to the thread.
Calvinists refer to the grace that is offered to all as "common grace," and distinguishes it from "saving grace."
And unless God specifically chose to save particular individuals, no one would be saved because humans are born spiritually dead and absolutely cannot will themselves back to life. Jesus said in Matthew 19 about salvation that "With man this is impossible." Paul said that our salvation (by grace through faith) is not of ourselves but is the gift of God. In other words, there is nothing we can ever do to cause our own salvation. Again, dead people can't will themselves back to life. To say that humans somehow have the capacity, on their own, to will themselves saved is saying that dead people can will themselves back to life and, therefore, that Paul lied when he said that we were dead in trespasses and sins.
Even the faith to believe is the gift of God that comes through hearing the word of God.
Again, all this other stuff is getting us off the topic of this thread. Bringing us back on topic, I'll say what I said earlier, that there isn't so much as a single passage of scripture that says there is or isn't "free will," but that the views one way or the other are merely interpretations of various scriptures pulled together. What you and others describe as "free will" is merely the definition of "will" (the capacity/ability to choose).
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