Christianity and FreeMasonry

[Mike S]

At one time, Freemasonry was a religious/political movement. In the United States, it is quite different and the philanthropic activities of Masons far outweigh any harm done by someone who might take the symbolic language literally.

On the other hand, in some countries like Italy, Masons are a matter of concern. The infamous P2 lodge, for example, which was deeply involved in politics and banking fraud. I have been told that the lodge has since been expelled by the governing body for Freemasonry in Italy, but I'm not sure of that.

There are many sites that promote a rather unrealistic and sinister view of Freemasonry. But these are mostly imaginative, and don't really apply to things as they are in the United States now.

Freemasonry is as susceptible to corruption and being turned to evil as all other human institutions. And, you're right, the religious/political nature of Freemasonry was problematic in the past. The Morgan Affair http://www.kinghiramslodge.org/morgan.html in upstate New York was a particularly nasty example, and it led to a very powerful anti-Masonry reaction throughout the country.

 

[agua.]

Freemasonry is as susceptible to corruption and being turned to evil as all other human institutions. And, you're right, the religious/political nature of Freemasonry was problematic in the past. The Morgan Affair http://www.kinghiramslodge.org/morgan.html in upstate New York was a particularly nasty example, and it led to a very powerful anti-Masonry reaction throughout the country.

Intersting Mike. I'd like to say I've researched the very good qualities the Mason "Fathers" initiated with good intention. I also have to say through personal experience and eye witness that there seem to be some particularly evil and self serving Masons in my area.

 

[Mike S]

Intersting Mike. I'd like to say I've researched the very good qualities the Mason "Fathers" initiated with good intention. I also have to say through personal experience and eye witness that there seem to be some particularly evil and self serving Masons in my area.

Yeah, it happens. I'm not going to try defending every Mason in the world, I'll just let you know my own experience. To tell you the truth, I see a lot of things done as well by people who call themselves Christian that I won't try to defend.

We're imperfect creatures, agua, who without Christ will make a mess of things every time.

 

[agua.]

Yeah, it happens. I'm not going to try defending every Mason in the world, I'll just let you know my own experience. To tell you the truth, I see a lot of things done as well by people who call themselves Christian that I won't try to defend.

We're imperfect creatures, agua, who without Christ will make a mess of things every time.

True Mike. Unfortunately the obligations evil Masons follow, as I mentioned one in post #30, allow for some particularly evil behaviour to go unchecked. A Christains who does evil is disobeying their obigations when they sin.

 

[Mike S]

True Mike. Unfortunately the obligations evil Masons follow, as I mentioned one in post #30, allow for some particularly evil behaviour to go unchecked. A Christains who does evil is disobeying their obigations when they sin.

OK, so then, as far as Freemasonry is concerned, what do you intend to do? It seems to bother you a lot.

 

[Gary]

Ok I assume you're a Freemason Mike. Did you take the Masonic oaths ?

Yes, to both.

When you took your oaths, did you swear on the bible?
.

 

[agua.]

OK, so then, as far as Freemasonry is concerned, what do you intend to do? It seems to bother you a lot.

I can't tell you that Mike it would be indiscreet. I love and pray for the Masons I know and let the One True God Yahweh do the business as He sees fit.

Oh I forgot to add IHAGDTTFT.

 

[Barbarian]

I also have to say through personal experience and eye witness that there seem to be some particularly evil and self serving Masons in my area.

There have been cases where almost all the prominent citizens and government officials in a city were Masons. That can give the organization a great deal of power, and power is a very effective corrupter.

This not a reflection on Freemasonry as much as it is a reflection on humanity.

 

[agua.]

There have been cases where almost all the prominent citizens and government officials in a city were Masons. That can give the organization a great deal of power, and power is a very effective corrupter.

Yup. When people get away with evil behaviour they have no reason to change unless convicted ( by Yahweh or conscience ) or criminally charged. Mostly denial is the trend.

This not a reflection on Freemasonry as much as it is a reflection on humanity.

Unfortunately many obligations of Masonry require a Member to sin ( in Yahweh's eye ) and decieve else break an oath.

 

[agua.]

I forgot to ask Barbarian are you a Mason ?

 

[agua.]

When you took your oaths, did you swear on the bible?
.

I see a trend when Christian Masons are confronted with contradictions Gaz what do you think ?

 

[Gary]

I see a trend when Christian Masons are confronted with contradictions Gaz what do you think ?

It's awful quiet in here.
.

 

[Mike S]

It's awful quiet in here.
.

It's a little quiet because your mind is made up and you have no interest in dialogue. After awhile it's a waste of time, like wrestling with a pig. The pig loves getting dirty and has no other interest.
Yes, my oath was taken with my hand on a Bible. You seem to have completely ignored what I said about the qualifier that the oath and penalty are entirely symbolic and is so stated at the time. So swearing on the Bible is an affirmation of it's symbolism, nothing else.

I fully expect you to have no understanding whatever of what we're talking about, you're merely demonstrating an ignorance of the subject, so I'll stop wrestling with you.

 

[agua.]

It's a little quiet because your mind is made up and you have no interest in dialogue. After awhile it's a waste of time, like wrestling with a pig. The pig loves getting dirty and has no other interest.
Yes, my oath was taken with my hand on a Bible. You seem to have completely ignored what I said about the qualifier that the oath and penalty are entirely symbolic and is so stated at the time. So swearing on the Bible is an affirmation of it's symbolism, nothing else.

I fully expect you to have no understanding whatever of what we're talking about, you're merely demonstrating an ignorance of the subject, so I'll stop wrestling with you.

Interesting Mike. In this thread you've resisted being transparent and expect us to rely upon your word. Present the oaths requested and then we can start wrestling instead of lobbying for position Brother. Btw Gaz is a good wrestler but he tends to stay out of the muck how about you ?

 

[Mike S]

Interesting Mike. In this thread you've resisted being transparent and expect us to rely upon your word. Present the oaths requested and then we can start wrestling instead of lobbying for position Brother. Btw Gaz is a good wrestler but he tends to stay out of the muck how about you ?

Actually, agua, I really don't much care whether or not you rely on my word. You seem like a bright enough guy, and you're probably aware there are associations across all segments of society that restrict access of information to members only. I presume you accept that. Yet, you have an inordinate interest in pushing Freemasonry for "transparency." I understand that, it seems to be an obsession for many who like to indulge in conspiracy thinking.

I've answered your questions, but there comes a time when I just have to say, if you're interested in finding out more, apply to join a lodge. Otherwise, unless I see you quizzing the Knights of Columbus, or B'nai B'rith, or IBM's board of directors, about what goes on in their meetings, as you continue to obsess about Freemasonry, I have to assume your interest isn't an honest interest, and I wont indulge your conspiracy thinking. I'll leave that to your websites.

 

[agua.]

Actually, agua, I really don't much care whether or not you rely on my word. You seem like a bright enough guy, and you're probably aware there are associations across all segments of society that restrict access of information to members only. I presume you accept that. Yet, you have an inordinate interest in pushing Freemasonry for "transparency." I understand that, it seems to be an obsession for many who like to indulge in conspiracy thinking.

I've answered your questions, but there comes a time when I just have to say, if you're interested in finding out more, apply to join a lodge. Otherwise, unless I see you quizzing the Knights of Columbus, or B'nai B'rith, or IBM's board of directors, about what goes on in their meetings, as you continue to obsess about Freemasonry, I have to assume your interest isn't an honest interest, and I wont indulge your conspiracy thinking. I'll leave that to your websites.

But Mike this thread is about Freemasonry and you freely entered the discussion. If the Knights or Ibm's etc are up for discussion I may or may not enter that depending on my interest. If you're not interested in defending your position that's fine but maybe you shouldn't have started exepecting us to blindly accept your word. Oh btw I do understand why you protect and defend your Mason obligations and Brothers obove all else.

 

[Gary]

It's a little quiet because your mind is made up and you have no interest in dialogue. After awhile it's a waste of time, like wrestling with a pig. The pig loves getting dirty and has no other interest.
Yes, my oath was taken with my hand on a Bible. You seem to have completely ignored what I said about the qualifier that the oath and penalty are entirely symbolic and is so stated at the time. So swearing on the Bible is an affirmation of it's symbolism, nothing else.

I have all the interest in the world. I'm not the one being evasive.

I fully expect you to have no understanding whatever of what we're talking about, you're merely demonstrating an ignorance of the subject, so I'll stop wrestling with you.

One shouldn't assume.
.

 

[Gary]

Otherwise, unless I see you quizzing the Knights of Columbus, or B'nai B'rith, or IBM's board of directors, about what goes on in their meetings, as you continue to obsess about Freemasonry, I have to assume your interest isn't an honest interest, and I wont indulge your conspiracy thinking. I'll leave that to your websites.

Do they take oaths that resemble these?

The obligation of a first degree Freemason (Entered Apprentice degree):

“Binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and buried in the rough sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty four hours, should I ever knowingly or willingly violate this my solemn oath and obligation as an Entered Apprentice Mason. So help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same.”

The obligation of a second degree Freemason (Fellowcraft degree):

“Binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my left breast torn open, my heart plucked out, and given as a prey to the wild beasts of the field and the fowls of the air as a prey.”

The obligation of a third degree Freemason (Master Mason degree):

“Binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered to the four winds of heaven, so that no more trace or remembrance may be had of so vile and perjured a wretch as I, should I ever knowingly or willingly violate this my solemn obligation as a Master Mason. So help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same.”

http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/oaths.html

.

 

[Mike S]

But Mike this thread is about Freemasonry and you freely entered the discussion. If the Knights or Ibm's etc are up for discussion I may or may not enter that depending on my interest. If you're not interested in defending your position that's fine but maybe you shouldn't have started exepecting us to blindly accept your word. Oh btw I do understand why you protect and defend your Mason obligations and Brothers obove all else.

Above all else? What makes you think that? Clearly if you think I protect Masonic obligations "above all else", you truly have no understanding of me.

Yes, I've entered into a discussion about Freemasonry, because once in awhile - rarely - there is someone who actually is honestly interested in Freemasonry, rather than simply looking for another venue to bash it. I'm nearly always disillusioned in the end, as it seems I will be again.

 

[agua.]

Above all else? What makes you think that? Clearly if you think I protect Masonic obligations "above all else", you truly have no understanding of me.

Yes, I've entered into a discussion about Freemasonry, because once in awhile - rarely - there is someone who actually is honestly interested in Freemasonry, rather than simply looking for another venue to bash it. I'm nearly always disillusioned in the end, as it seems I will be again.

Frankly, when I see the un-natural negative obsessions of some concerning Freemasonry in places like this, it makes me doubt the depth of their Christian faith, that they could feel so threatened.

I'm curious that you readily seem to break the ToS here Mike by casting doubt upon the depth of my Christian faith. I call you Brother and yet this ? I'm willing to look at your obligations and hear your arguments defending them but so far you haven't presented any. I'm a bit confused as to how Masons enter these discussions and expect everyone to accept their word concerning obligations we can't see. Why aren't you willing to defend your Craft transparently unless there's something may show a contradiction with Christian obligations ?