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Did Muhammad ever encourage deceit? YES or NO

Did Muhammad ever encourage deceit? YES or NO?

  • YES

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    12

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Exposing the false prophet called Muhammad - his deceit

cheese said:
I agreed that Muhammad pbuh allowed deceit in certain circumstances when a greater good was at hand, as highlighted by the above posts and prohibited it in all other circumstances.
Muhammad had many other options to tackle his opponents. He used deceit... the lowest form of human behavior possible.

Think logically of the many other options available to Muhammad and his band of followers.

As for the other times that Muhammad recommended deceit; again, there are many other options available which show a much higher moral code than deceit and lying or concealing the truth. Again, all you have to do is apply logic and you can arrive at many better options than Muhammad recommended or did.

It seems that as long as the goal is to protect Muhammad or to further Islam, the end justifies the means even if it involves lies and deceit. Muhammad and his followers assassinated opponents whom Muhammad wanted out of the way.

As most Muslims regard Muhammad the example of behavior to follow, we have the same situation today where Muslims are prepared to lie and deceive anyone they consider to be enemies.

P.S. How did you vote in the poll? You have now agreed that Muhammad allowed deceit.

Gary said:
....have you identified all cases where Islam allows deceit?
cheese said:
I believe i have. If you believe otherwise then please put forth your claim, rather then sugessting that I myself am being deceitful at the moment by concealing some truth from you. I am after all only human and may have over looked something, possibly because i forgot, did not realise that it fits in this context, or because I was not aware of it.
I would like to suggest that you have NOT shown all examples of when a Muslim may lie or deceive.

For instance, one of your own prominent theologians maintains "When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible.

:o

There are other examples.

Did you know that Islam allows you to lie if it brings you prosperity?

:-?
 
Re: Exposing the false prophet called Muhammad - his deceit

Firstly, I did not and will not vote in the poll as i do not agree with any of the options. as i said before, i did not agree that Muhammad pbuh allowed deciet 'fullstop', rather I agreed that Muhammad pbuh allowed deceit in certain circumstances when a greater good was at hand, as highlighted by the above posts and prohibited it in all other circumstances.

Now to address the main issue arising from your previous post. The qoute you mentioned, well theres a bit more to the story:

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

You seem to have missed out on that important piont that i highlighted above.

Now, it is not my place to comment on this person himself, it is only up to God to judge a person. However, to contextualise: for most of his life this man was a mystic, and all praise be to God, towards the very end of his life he realised that his appraoch to religion was wrong (generally) and that he had made some mistakes. My point being, im not evern sure myself that this person would still agree with what he wrote. Too much philosophy.

Furthermore, the prophet pbuh did not say this. Thus it is unfair to attribute it as a teaching of Islam, just becuase the person who said it was a Muslim. No one is perfect and he may have been wrong.

I will attempt to explain the possible meanings of the quote:

1. It may be that he was actually saying nothing different to what I had said in my previous post, mentioned in the hadith. The prophet permitted lying in three circumstances, the two not involving war are to maintain the peace in the community. Thus, the saying above that "it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible" might simply be a refering to the this hadith, since the permissible lies mentioned by the prophet were to this effect.

2. The other possibility is that the qoutation is refering to lying in general to acheive ones aims as long as those aims are praiseworthy. As the prophet himself did not say that "it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible" then one cannot take this qoute as the final ruling on the matter becuase it contradicts what the prophet himself did say. Lying is a sin in Islam. One cannot do something prohibited to achieve an aim, no matter how praiseworthy the aim is.

3. It may be that the qoute is taken out of context and requires the full context to be understood. I do not wish to judge.

As most Muslims regard Muhammad the example of behavior to follow, we have the same situation today where Muslims are prepared to lie and deceive anyone they consider to be enemies.

Firstly, one should hardly judge a religion by the actions of its followers. There are many Muslims out there who havent got a clue about anything. There are many who probably dont even know that lying is permissible in some cases, and even worse, those who will lie even though they know it is not allowed. You get the same thing with every religion, Christianity included.

Secondly, example? Thats a pretty big claim to make. I dont know any Muslims like that.
 
Look, i need to add something.

I notice that pretty much everything you link to is that answering-islam website. TALK ABOUT THE WORST PLACE TO GO TO LEARN ABOUT ISLAM!! It full of rubbish, i just checked out an article from the site about lying in islam, i sure hope you didnt get your info from there becuase its so exagerated, taken out of context and half of it is just plain FALSE!!!

Oh yeh and i forgot to mention, in reply to your claim that simple logic would have easily provided alternatives to lying. Well, in war, theres arent that many alternatives. If the prophet knew of a better alternative he would have used it, but i dont see any logical alternatives for the examples given. Do you?

Also, well obviously lying isnt the only possibilty! IF you are in a situation where lying is allowed and you can find a way of fixing it with out lying, then by all means dont lie!!! Lying in those circumstances was permissible, not encouraged. Why would any one lie when there is a more logical and easier solution? A practising Muslim wouldnt.

Did you know that Islam allows you to lie if it brings you prosperity?

As i said in my previous post, NO IT DOESNT!
 
Showing the Muslim that LYING is not the right option

cheese said:
Oh yeh and i forgot to mention, in reply to your claim that simple logic would have easily provided alternatives to lying. Well, in war, theres arent that many alternatives. If the prophet knew of a better alternative he would have used it, but i dont see any logical alternatives for the examples given. Do you?
It was NOT war. Muhammad had someone he thought he needed to get rid of. IF Muhammad had any real reason to have him murdered, why did Muhammad not capture him and put him on trial?

Muhammad wanted Kab bin al-Ashraf murdered because Kab bin al-Ashraf had "Hurt Allah and His apostle!". Get real! How does a man hurt Allah?

Why did Muhammad not abide by the treaty he had with the Jews? Was it right to murder Kab bin al-Ashraf at night using deception as criminals would?

Muhammad took things into his own hands. Like the gangs which eliminate their opponents... Muhammad despatched his thugs at night to go and murder his opponents.

Now as for a logical alternative to lying to your wife.... a simple alternative would be to tell the truth!

:)
 
Exposing Muhammad the murderer and thief and rapist

Gary said:
As most Muslims regard Muhammad the example of behavior to follow, we have the same situation today where Muslims are prepared to lie and deceive anyone they consider to be enemies.
cheese said:
Firstly, one should hardly judge a religion by the actions of its followers.
Jesus said we would know a false prophet by their fruit. Muhammad's fruit was rotten as were his immediate followers who, even after his death, murdered and fought each other.... and generally acted like their leader and leaders; like thugs.

cheese said:
There are many Muslims out there who havent got a clue about anything.
I agree.
 
Yes it was a war, as I clarified earlier:

Ibn Ishaq stated, “ Ka’b b. al-Ashraf was of the Ta’I tribe, of the sub-tribe of Banu Nabhan, though his mother was of Banu al-Nadir. He received news of the deaths of those at Badr after the arrival of Zayd b. Al- Haritha and ‘Abd Allah b. Rawaha. He commented, ‘ By God, if Muhammad has really struck down those people, then better be inside the earth than upon it!

Source

I wonder why he would have gotten news of deaths if it wasnt a war? It was a war, a war refered to as the battle of Badr.

Jesus said we would know a false prophet by their fruit. Muhammad's fruit was rotten as were his immediate followers who, even after his death, murdered and fought each other.... and generally acted like their leader and leaders; like thugs.

Wow. What insight. Talk about taking things out of context! So now yu claim the prophet was a thug! LOL! Everything you seem to beleive to be true about the prophet is a bunch of lies.

So, what about all those christian priests you hear about these days molestering children? Arent they the 'fruit' of Jesus? So, by your logic, Jesus must have been a false prophet (or i guess, god, as you would put it) because his followers molester children!!

Even worse, some guys come along long after Jesus was 'dead' and start to claim that he was GOD himself!! Unbelievable!! Not that i expect you beleive this, since you too believe that Jesus was God.

Dont you dare talk about the prophet and his companions with such lies and disrespect. These people gave up everything they had for their religion! They were tortured by their enemies, and yet they remained loyal. If your religion teaches you to 'turn the other cheek', fine. But the prophet and his companions didnt let people walk all over them, they faught back, for the sake of what is right, for justice, to defend their people. If in war, one must resort to deception, then is is justified. War is deception.

If a person- regarless of his or her faith, were to be captured by the enemy, what do you expect them to do? Give in and tell all they know to the enemy? Thus betraying the loyalty to their leader? I dont think so! Deception in war is justified, as long as it is within the bounds of reason. For example, you cant go around killing innocent women and children and then blaming the opposition to have been behind it.

By what logic can you possibly believe that a person in war should be honest with their enemy?? The people who wish him to be dead?? The element of surprise is crucial in war- you would hardly go around telling your enemy that you plan to attack them at exactly 12:15 pm monday, appraoching from the east.

As most Muslims regard Muhammad the example of behavior to follow, we have the same situation today where Muslims are prepared to lie and deceive anyone they consider to be enemies.

I have the courtesy to reply directly to your posts, so could you please reply to mine. I asked you to give an examle of the above claim. Prove the above claim, give an example.
 
cheese said:
So, what about all those christian priests you hear about these days molestering children? Arent they the 'fruit' of Jesus? So, by your logic, Jesus must have been a false prophet (or i guess, god, as you would put it) because his followers molester children!!

They will use the "they aren't real Christians" excuse. :)
 
Muhammad and his thugs (his immediate followers)

cheese said:
Dont you dare talk about the prophet and his companions with such lies and disrespect. These people gave up everything they had for their religion! They were tortured by their enemies, and yet they remained loyal. If your religion teaches you to 'turn the other cheek', fine. But the prophet and his companions didnt let people walk all over them, they faught back, for the sake of what is right, for justice, to defend their people. If in war, one must resort to deception, then is is justified. War is deception.
You say that war is deception. Then, as Muhammad fought so many wars and ordered so many assassinations, he was continually being deceptive! I can agree with that.

James M. Arlandson said:
A year or so after Muhammad’s Hijrah from Mecca to Medina in 622, he attacks Meccan caravans six times, and sent out a punitive expedition three-days away against an Arab tribe that stole some Medinan grazing camels (or cattle), totaling seven raids.
W. Montgomery Watt, a highly reputable Western Islamologist who writes in favor of Muhammad and whose two-volume history of early Islam (Muhammad at Mecca (1953) and Muhammad at Medina (1956)) has won wide acceptance, tells us why geography matters:

The chief point to notice is that the Muslims took the offensive. -Source-

James M. Arlandson said:
To complete the picture of expeditions, raids and wars in Muhammad’s life from 622 to 632, Watt totals up the number that Muhammad either sent out or went out on: seventy-four (Muhammad at Medina, pp. 2; 339-43). They range from negotiations (only a few compared to the violent expeditions), to small assassination hit squads, to the conquest of Mecca with 10,000 jihadists, and to the confrontation of Byzantine Christians (who never showed up), with 30,000 holy warriors to Tabuk (see below).

For a fuller account of these six early aggressive attacks against Meccan caravans, go to this article, which explains more thoroughly why these attacks are not defensive.

Thus, aggressive military violence sits at the heart of early Islamâ€â€in Muhammad’s life and in the Quran. Islam is therefore not the religion of peace.

:o :smt027 :o
 
The FRUIT of Muhammad - war and deception

The "fruit" of Muhammad - his immediate followers

Muhammad died and the lives of his followers changed drastically. Now they were free to be who they were without Muhammad’s commanding presence and authority. They now had greater liberty to choose for themselves and do as they saw fit. It is no great feat for the servant to obey in his master’s presence, but how does the servant act when the master is long gone?

ALI’S FRUIT

Ali was Muhammad’s son in law, he was married to Muhammad’s daughter Fatima. Ali was raised by Muhammad starting at the age of five. At the battle of Khaibar Muhammad attested to Ali’s love of Allah, and Allah’s love of Ali. Ali was the fourth of the “rightly guided Caliphs.†Ali had two sons: Hasan and Husayn (both are important later on). Eventually Ali became a co-Caliph. A few years later he was murdered by a fellow Muslim.

The day after Muhammad’s death, Ali’s greed surfaced and he demanded that Abu Bakr give him a share of Muhammad’s ample wealth. His greed motivated him to move against Muhammad’s commands regarding his inheritance. Abu Bakr refused and Ali was enraged. He even stated that Muhammad himself did not know the Quran (in this Ali was correct) because the Quran details prophets leaving an inheritance to their sons (as does the Old Testament). As a result, Ali hated Abu Bakr deeply. He thought Abu Bakr to be “sinful, treacherous, dishonest, and a liar.†Remember, Abu Bakr was Islam’s 1st “Rightly Guided†Caliph. Obviously Ali did not think he was so “rightly guided!†When Muhammad’s daughter Fatima died, Ali was so embittered towards Abu Bakr that he did not bother to tell him, rather he buried Fatima in secret. Ali was censored by the people for his hatred towards Abu Bakr, therefore he went through the false motions of reconciliation with Abu Bakr to regain favor with the Muslim community.

Following Abu Bakr’s death, Ali made the same financial demands upon Umar. Umar told Ali to his face that he knew he hated him and that he knew Ali thought him to be a “sinful treacherous dishonest liarâ€Â. However, under Ali’s pressure, Umar relented, compromised Muhammad’s commands, made some trite stipulations, and gave a share of the wealth to Ali.

Following Uthman’s murder Ali did not attempt to punish the murderers. Instead he acted lamely, claiming he did not have sufficient force to deal with the murderers. Later when he had ample troops, instead of punishing Uthman’s murderers, he incorporated them into his service.

After he became Caliph he used compulsion and forced az-Zubayr and Talha to give him allegiance. When it became apparent that not all thought he should be Caliph, instead of working to keep unity within the Islamic community, he demanded allegiance. His lust for power caused him to go to war to force all Muslims to obey him. This caused the deaths of tens of thousands of Muslims through various battles. Later, Ali murdered Muslims who had converted to Islam, realized it was a big mistake, and reverted back to Christ.

FATIMA’S FRUIT

One of Muhammad’s daughters, later married to Ali. The day after her father died, she went against her father’s wishes and demanded a share of his wealth. She hated Abu Bakr for refusing her demand. She thought him to be a “sinful, treacherous, dishonest, liar.†She died some 6 months after Muhammad died.

IBN ABBAS’ FRUIT

Like Ali and Fatima, Ibn Abbas was greedy and made a demand upon Abu Bakr, and later Umar, for the inheritance. Ibn Abbas thought them to be “sinful, treacherous, dishonest, liars.†He did not care to respect Muhammad’s wishes. In his lust for the money, he even cursed Ali in front of Umar. Later in life he betrayed Ali, stole from the public treasury, lied about his actions, and murdered those that opposed him.

ABU SUFYAN’S FRUIT

Abu Sufyan should not be considered as part of the Royal family or one of the best Muslims. However, he became prominent even during Muhammad’s lifetime. I’ve noted him here because of the position his sons were to occupy later. After forcing Abu Sufyan to convert to Islam, Muhammad gave him financial rewards for accepting Islam and foolishly appointed him as a governor over a city. Muhammad’s corrupt folly here proved to be fatal to his own family not many years later.

Islam’s Royal family knew of Sufyan’s intentions, for they heard him say, “By God, I see a cloud of smoke,†which nothing but blood will clearâ€Â, but they did nothing to check this. And, Sufyan’s prophecy proved true. Sufyan held malice against Abu Bakr and denigrated the choice of Bakr as Caliph. He considered himself and his clan to be superior to Abu Bakr. Later, his family destroyed Muhammad’s family, and took the Caliphate for themselves.

AL-ZUBAYR’S FRUIT

He was a very prominent Muslim, a close friend of Muhammad’s, and a leader in the Islamic community. After Muhammad died, he was willing to murder those that opposed Ali as Caliph. However, he desired the Caliphate and when he thought the time was right he rebelled against Ali. His leadership also caused the deaths of thousands of Muslims in the Battle of the Camel.

UTHMAN’S FRUIT

Uthman was the 3rd “Rightly Guided Caliphâ€Â. His caliphate marked the inward deterioration of the Islamic community. By this time, Muhammad’s empty legalistic rule had run its course and the Muslim community began to live in the flesh to the fullest. Uthman was a weak, corrupt leader and allowed the corruption to flourish throughout the Islamic empire. Uthman was murdered by Muslims, Abu Bakr’s son was one of the ringleaders of the murder. When his final crisis occurred, he lied to Ali and the people by saying he wanted time to set good things in order. Instead he prepared for war.

TALHA’S FRUIT

Another prominent Muslim, a close friend of Muhammad’s, and a leader in the Islamic community. He his desire for the Caliphate he rebelled against Ali. His leadership also caused the deaths of thousands of Muslims in the Battle of the Camel.

MUAWIYAH’S FRUIT

Muawiyah was Abu Sufyan’s son and was appointed to the governorship of Syria by Umar. He went to war with Ali. He later became the 5th Caliph of Islam. He treated Uthman with duplicity by not sending help when he needed it most. In his deceit and lust for power he rebelled against Ali. He led thousands of Muslims to their deaths in his war with Ali. He lied about seeking peace while all the while he moved against Ali. Later he lied to Hasan in promising Hasan that he would have a council held to determine the next Caliph. Instead, prior to his death, he installed his son Yazid as Caliph.

AISHA’S FRUIT

She was Muhammad’s 9 year old child bride. She hated Ali for most of her life. She was one of the leaders in Islam’s first civil war. She had previously despised Uthman, but she used his murder as a pretense to move against Ali. Her hatred and rebellion toward Ali led to the deaths of some 15,000 Muslims. In her bitterness towards Ali, she rejoiced when Ali was murdered.

HASAN’S FRUIT

Hasan was Ali’s older son and initially claimed the Caliphate for himself following his father’s murder. However, just as things went wrong for Ali, so things deteriorated for Hasan very quickly. He sold out his “birthright†for a large sum of money. Thereafter he spent his wealth on debauchery with women.

YAZID’S FRUIT

Yazid was Muawiyah’s son. By using threat of death Yazid tried to force many Muslims to accept his Caliphate. Those that refused were tortured and killed. Entire towns of people were persecuted and oppressed. Yazid was a drunkard. It was Yazid’s forces that killed Husayn. Yazid, the Caliph of Islam desecrated the head of Muhammad’s grandson – Husayn. He was rebuked by another Muslim who told him that he had seem Muhammad kiss the lips of that severed head!

ABDALLAH IBN AL-ZUBAYR’s FRUIT

Ibn Zubayr was the son of Az-Zubayr, one of Muhammad’s most prominent Companions. Following Husayn’s death Ibn Zubayr also claimed the Caliphate. He died during another later civil war in 692. Ibn Zubayr was the son of one of the most prominent Companions. When he was persecuted by Yazid he fled as Husayn but even in this dire time, jealousy of Husayn and selfish ambition ruled in his heart. Deep down he coveted the prize of ruling the Muslims as Caliph.

THE ISLAMIC COMMUNITY’S FRUIT

We must not forget how the Islamic community behaved after Muhammad’s death. The day after Muhammad died they nearly came to war trying to choose the next Caliph. The Muslims were already ready to fight and kill each other. As things deteriorated under Uthman’s reign, from all over the Islamic empire they rebelled against him and journeyed to Medina to fight him. In the end many of Uthman’s closest friends deserted him. The son of the 2nd Rightly guided Caliph – Abu Bakr, was one of the ringleaders in Uthman’s murder. Following that, these renegade Muslims threatened Medina with annihilation if they did not quickly choose another Caliph. Throughout the times sons of Caliphs fought against sons of other Caliphs. Even the sons of a prominent Companion (Az-Zubayr) hated and fought against each other. During Ali’s through Yazid’s reign the Muslims fought war after war, carried out assassinations, rebelled against and betrayed each other. As time wore on they made war in Mecca and destroyed their own Kaba. Thousands of Basrans died, thousands of Kufans died, thousands of Syrians died, thousands of Meccans died, thousands of Medinans died, thousands of Yemenis died, and thousands of Egyptians died. The early Muslims were no more dependable and virtuous than a nest of poisonous snakes. -source-

:o
 
Acting like Muhammad - deception is the rule

Deception - acting like Muhammad

Gary said:
As most Muslims regard Muhammad the example of behavior to follow, we have the same situation today where Muslims are prepared to lie and deceive anyone they consider to be enemies.
cheese said:
I have the courtesy to reply directly to your posts, so could you please reply to mine. I asked you to give an examle of the above claim. Prove the above claim, give an example.
I could quote many examples. One will do.

If you want to see what Muslims are prepared to do for their god (Allah) and especially for their prophet Muhammad, Shabir Ally is a good place to start.

It is very sad when (like Muhammad), a Muslim has to use deception to try and get an advantage.

:o
 
No offense Gary, but i dont see where this discussion is going. I could refute your argument, but to what effect? Im sure you will just come back with some other anti-islamic article that i will need to reply to. I dont see this is particularily productive.

I have already posted some replies that will hopefully trigger interest in the truth in the mind of those who wish to learn wtih an open-mind, rather than those who only seek to protray the Prophet in manner than any Muslim would know to be false.

On a further note, one reason why this discussion is not productive is becuase no matter what i say you will be looking at it from the 'Muhammad is a liar approach", so no matter what i say you will wont be too open to it, whereas a Muslim would look at it from a 'Muhammad was acting according to the laws of God and he had the best intention and what he did was right becuase he was the prophet of God' and becuase 'Muhammad had the best of character, he was not and evil person, but the perfect role model for man kind'.

Also, i must stress the fact that i do not trust anything you link to from an anti-islamic website as most of what i have seen from it so far is:
1. exaggerated
2. out of context
3. innaccurate
4. bias
5. missing key pieces of information.. etc

You simply cant learn what the prophet was like from an anti-islamic website, and im sure you can relate to what im saying because you would probably have said the same thing to me if i was trying to learn about christianity from an anti-christian website.

Perhaps if someone asks a sincere question in this thread imight reply, but as i said, replying to full articles posted without the intention of receiving clarification is just not very productive.
 
Muhammad is the offensive person...

No offense at all.

I do understand Islam very well. I have studied the Quran and the Hadith for 7 years. I have read many, many books about Islam. I have studied the source material (Quran and Hadith).... and you are right. There is nothing which you will ever say or write which would ever convince me otherwise. I know that Muhammad is a false prophet. I know this because I use Jesus as the measure and Muhammad falls far short of that measure.

I know that the Quran is not the word of God. I have the Bible as the yardstick I use to evaluate the Quran. Again, the Quran falls very short of that yardstick. It contains very little truth and is a jumble of Muhammad's thoughts.

You may follow Muhammad. I would rather follow my Lord Jesus Christ.

I know that deep down you too must worry about the lifestyle and deeds of Muhammad and his followers. When you compare that to Jesus and His apostles, you have to see the difference.

I realise it must be very upsetting to have to face up to the reality of who Muhammad really was. I know several ex-Muslims who have come to know our Lord Jesus Christ on a personal level and when they look back, they always talk about the hollow "god" they worshipped called Allah vs. the loving and personal relationship they now have with the Lord.

The difference is Jesus Christ....

:)

John Gilchrist said:
Jesus came to earth the first time to become just like us in every respect to save us from our sins. Yet, when he returns the second time in all his heavenly glory, he will come to make us like himself. We have seen how many texts speak of Jesus shining like the sun in full strength in his heavenly splendour. This is precisely what he says will happen to us when he returns to earth:
  • Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Matthew 13:43
He came the first time in all humility in ordinary human form to redeem us from our sins. He will return the second time in all his glory so that we might share it with him. He brought himself down the first time to earth. He will take us to himself in the heavenly realms when he returns the second time.

The second coming inevitably links to his first coming. You too (cheese) can become a partaker of the divine nature and receive the forgiveness of your sins by becoming disciples of Jesus now, and you can be transformed when He returns and be raised with the same glory He presently radiates.

The nuzul-i-Isa in Islam, His second coming to earth, is a tremendous point of common ground between us...... but your choice for Jesus must be now.

Here is a great book on the Gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... eturn.html
 
Re: Muhammad is the offensive person...

What we can learn from Islam, I think, is that a major world religion can get started by people who aren't perfect, can get started by flawed individuals. Not that adherents of the religion will notice...
 
DivineNames, Only Prophets are perfect. Their followers are not but the point is that they try their best.

Gary, i forgot to mention one very important thing, probably becuase i assumed it was obvious.

I qoute a friend of mine: "The specific doesn't over-ride the general ruling".

What this means is that just becuase the prophet allowed lying in certain limited cases (i.e. specific ruling) for the benefit for the cummunity as a whole, that doesnt mean that lying is now okay and people can lie when ever they want, becuase lying is still a sin in Islam (the general ruling). So, just becuase lying is permissible to bring peace between people, that doesnt mean that a person can lie for personal gain, for example, claim his products are worth more than they really are so as to increase once prophet.

Another example would be the case obedience to parents. OBedience to ones parents is one of the most important rights a parent has over their children (general rule), however the prophet made it clear that this obedience does not count if the parents are asking the child to do something that God himself has prohibited, becuase obedience to God comes before obedience to anyone else (the specific rule). As with the previous case, the specific does not over-rule the general rule.
 
Being honest.... unlike Muhammad and Muslims

cheese, I also forgot something. Very specific.

(1) I prefer to be honest and not use deception nor tell lies to my wife.

(2) I also prefer not to hide my religion nor lie about my faith (like Muhammad allowed and Muslims still do today)....

As I said, deception and lies and the life of your prophet and his immediate followers vs. the life and deeds of Jesus Christ and His immediate followers is what differentiates (amongst many other things) Muslims from Christians.

I choose Jesus. Maranatha!

:)
 
Muslims are NOT allowed to conceal their faith

And i forgot to mention that i hate writing up long replies only to the effect that people ignore them.

I already clarified that Muslims are NOT allowed to conceal their faith, UNLESS they are being tortured to such an extreme that the only way they can stop the torture is to say something against the prophet or God. In this case, even though they said something that would normally make them disbeleivers, they are not considered disbelievers in this case becuase they had been forced to do so. The other situation is only if it is part of a plot in war.

(1) I prefer to be honest and not use deception nor tell lies to my wife.

And so do Muslims. The fact that the permission is given does not mean that it may abused becuase that its NOT ALLOWED, its in only in the situation where it is better to lie and there is pretty much no other choice, a lie is permitted to uphold the peace in the community. This is a point i have made repeated yet one would think that you have been reading it as 'Muslims are encouraged to lie at whatever chance they have'![/quote]
 
Re: Muhammad is the offensive person...

Gary said:
No offense at all.

I do understand Islam very well. I have studied the Quran and the Hadith for 7 years. I have read many, many books about Islam. I have studied the source material (Quran and Hadith)....

Whoa....what a waste of seven years!! Especially if you ended up with the knowledge of Islam that you show before us here!

"I do understand Islam very well"

ROFL :biggrin

What can i say?!


"I have read many, many books about Islam"

Name some. And what knowledge you gained from them.
 
Reading the Hadith.... and gaining very little

Gary said:
I have read many, many books about Islam.
Bilal said:
Name some. And what knowledge you gained from them.
Sure. Have you read and studied the Hadith? Here is an article I wrote about the wisdom of Muhammad from the Hadith.

The “Wisdom of Muhammad†from the Hadith. In this article Gary updates the collection of hadiths on inspired sayings of Muhammad. Many of these embarrasing teachings are never expounded upon by Muslim apologist who attack Christianity. Read this paper if you truly want to experience the wisdom of Muhammad.

The “Wisdom of Muhammadâ€Â
from the Hadith

The religion of Islam is founded upon the words and deeds of Muhammad, who lived in the 6th century. In Islam the most authentic sources of Muhammad's words and deeds can be found in the Sahih (authentic) traditions of the Hadith. Muslims allege that Muhammad is an inspired prophet of God. Therefore we must investigate his sayings to see if God would actually inspire his words. Here are some wonderfully inspired words and actions from Muhammad as recorded in the Hadith (the words and deeds of Muhammad).

  • I am using the nine-volume translation of the Hadith made by Dr Muhammad Mushsin Khan entitled "The Translation of the Meaning of Sahih Al-Bukhari". It is recommended and approved by all Muslim authorities, including the spiritual heads of Mecca and Medina.
You may also check these Hadith at Hadith Search at the MESA-USC Hadith database http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

Read on.... -click here-

:) :biggrin :)

I look at over 40 Hadith which show Muhammad's wisdom:

  • Muhammad and magic - was he bewitched?
    Who was Muhammad having sex with?
    What should I do to avoid magic?
    Fly in your drink? - don’t worry, drink up
    Adam the colossus - you too will be this big in paradise (about 30m high!)
    Take down the pictures, kill the dogs - or no angels will visit you
    Muhammad’s genetics - depends on who discharges first
    Everyone must have a will - except Muhammad. (Do as I say, not what I do)
    Do spirits eat? If they do, what do they eat? Let’s ask Muhammad
    How sure is Muhammad of his own salvation?
    Murder and deceit - trademarks of Muhammad’s character
    What happens when the sun sets?
    How many wings does the angel Gabriel have?
    Satan in your nose
    Be careful with your urine. Soiling yourself leads to being tortured in your grave
    However, drinking camel’s urine is OK. It is a medicine
    Remember, use you left hand and don’t point to Mecca
    Fevers from hell
    Why does a person have trouble waking up for prayers? Let’s ask Muhammad why
    What should we do with Muhammad’s ablution water?
    What is the “seal of a prophet�
    Passing wind - more hadath
    Bad breath
    Yawning is from Satan
    Majority of people in hell are ungrateful women
    Women are deficient in intelligence
    Women in paradise - they are there for men’s use
    What should happen to someone who gives up Islam? (Apostasy)
    Muhammad’s sexual appetite
    Muhammad chooses his sexual partners from those he invades
    What physically happened to Muhammad when he received so-called revelations?
    Muhammad’s hypocrisy
Read on.... -click here-

:-? :-?
 
Muslims lie and hide their faith... want proof?

cheese said:
I already clarified that Muslims are NOT allowed to conceal their faith, UNLESS they are being tortured to such an extreme that the only way they can stop the torture is to say something against the prophet or God.
I am sure you know what you have said above is not true.

Sunni Muslims often criticize the Shi'a Muslims for their use of Taqiya, or not showing their faith openly. In other words, if a Shi'a Muslim's life is in danger, he may lie as long as he holds true to Ali in his heart.

But it is worse than that.... -source-

Here just one quotation from a Sunni website, Islam Q&A (http://www.islam-qa.com), advising in regard to making friends with non-Muslims:

"Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Awliyaa' (supporters, helpers) instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allaah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them" [Aal 'Imraan 3:28]

This verse explains all the verses quoted above which forbid taking the kaafirs as friends in general terms. What that refers to is in cases where one has a choice, but in cases of fear and TAQIYAH it is permissible to make friends with them, as much as is essential to protect oneself against their evil. That is subject to the condition that one's faith should not be affected by that friendship and the one who is behaves in that manner out of necessity is not one who behaves in that manner out of choice.

Shaykh Muhammad al-Saalih al-'Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about the ruling on mixing with the kuffaar and treating them kindly hoping that they will become Muslim. He replied:

Undoubtedly the Muslim is obliged to HATE the enemies of Allaah and to disavow them, because this is the way of the Messengers and their followers...

Based on this, it is not permissible for a Muslim to feel any love in his heart towards the enemies of Allaah who are in fact his enemies too...

But if a Muslim treats them with KINDNESS and gentleness in the hope that they will become Muslim and will believe, there is nothing wrong with that, because it comes under the heading of opening their hearts to Islam. But if he despairs of them becoming Muslim, then he should treat them accordingly. This is something that is discussed in detail by the scholars, especially in the book Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah by Ibn al-Qayyim ... (Question #59879: What is meant by taking the kuffaar as friends? Ruling on mixing with the kuffaar...)


Read it for yourself....
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&d ... 9879&dgn=4

:roll: :roll:

Very sick!!!!

:o :o
 
What exactly is sick?

Answer this question straight: Would you take a Muslim as a friend to trust? Yes or No?
 
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