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Does Christ
- Thread starter JM
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Poke
Guest
If you're a Calvinist, this is a no-brainer.
lovely
Member
Actually, 2 Peter 3 begins telling us that God is not slack in His promises to believers, and that those who mock us, and tell us He is not coming back are wrong, and willful. He is asking us to remember that it is not God's will that any (meaning the believers that will come to know Him between now, and the end of time) should perish, but that all (of them) should come to repentance. We know this because the very mockers who are trying to incite doubt are unbelievers, and I think Peter is reassuring believers that God's longsuffering "to usward" is for our sake, and the sake of others who will come to know Him. This verse does not mean that ALL will be saved, or that God has WILLED all to be saved, but that He is being longsuffering for the future salvation of those who will be saved. The Lord bless all of you.
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Imagican
Guest
How VERY easy is it for one to allow PRIDE to sneak in it's ugly head. For one to 'create' the idea that they were PERSONALLY chosen BY GOD is PRIDEFUL indeed. And this does NOTHING but separate, through pride, different 'groups' that profess to BE CHRISTIAN. Of what possible import could it be to witness or offer testimony if ALL were not able to come to the Lord? Why offer the Word to start with. Wouldn't those CHOSEN simply KNOW God from birth? Rediculous to think that Christ ONLY died for those 'pre-chosen'. Yes, God may have known from the beginning WHO would and who wouldn't make the proper choice. But he DID NOT make ANY to parish. That is the point behind the 'freedom of choice' that EACH of us has been given.
MEC
MEC
C
ChristineES
Guest
I didn't vote.
I think that EVERYONE is called, and it is up to the individual to answer.
I think that EVERYONE is called, and it is up to the individual to answer.
Drew
Member
Hi lovely:lovely said:
Can you please justify your conclusion. A "common sense" reading of 2 Peter 3:9 suggests that indeed God does desire that all people come to repentence. I sense that you do not believe that this is the case. Please provide specific defence for your implication (if not outright statement) that the "those" who God does not want to perish are "the believers that will come to know Him between now, and the end of time".
In this respect, I do not see how the fact that "the very mockers who are trying to incite doubt are unbelievers" is an item of evidence suggesting that the "everyone" referred to in verse 9 is not really everyone. Can you please provide a more in-depth explanation of this?
Please be aware of the distinction between establishing the plausibility of your interpretation and the establishment of the correctness of your interpretation to the exclusion of other interpretations. Example: A plausible explanation for the symptom of a stuffy nose is the presence of the common cold. Another plausible explanation exists, however - the presence of allergies. To really establish that a cold is responsible, one needs to demonstrate how the symptom is not attributable to allergies. I hope that I am explaining myself reasonably well.
Please note (and this is not directed at lovely): Any posts which malign my character (e.g. suggestions that I am dishonest or that I distort or that my intention is to mislead or that I am some kind of dreadful influence etc.) will be immediately reported to an administrator.
T
thessalonian
Guest
lovely said:
Lovely,
How do you get around Paul in Titus then?
1: First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2: for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
That seems pretty clear to me.
T
thessalonian
Guest
ChristineES said:
Christine, I agree. Grace is given to all sufficeint for their salvation. Grace is not irresistable however and so some do not attain salvatoin.
1: First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2: for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
How can it be that God desires ALL MEN to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, yet make no effort to bring that about for some?
We must of course be careful that we don't become semi-pelagian in this thinking. Our decision for Christ is by grace as well.
lovely
Member
Hi Imagican,
I am not without pride, that's for sure, and I am ashamed to say that in the face of what Christ has done for me I think it, and display it, far too often. I do not understand, though, how being chosen by someone is prideful?
When Christ came, He came for the sinners, the broken vessels. I always think of what a motley crew my believing friends are, and the patchwork of different walks He has brought them out of...it is a beautiful tapestry that He has woven in the church, and they are beautiful only because His love radiates from them, and binds them. I think the beauty of grace is that God can make something useful, out of something shattered, broken, and useless, and that kind, and loving, restoration gives me a desire to be used by Him in any way He decides.
I was plucked out the bonds of death, and given life by the Spirit of God, and I had nothing to do with it. I am only what He has made me. I love God because He first loved me. I could never say that I did anything in my own merit to choose life, because I have no merit of my own apart from Him. I was dead, and He granted me life, this is what Scripture teaches, and He has also granted me an opportunity to obey Him, and serve Him with my life.
I apologize for any tone of arrogance that you may have found offensive in my prior posts, or maybe you just find the belief arrogant, I'm not sure exactly, but it was not my intention just the same. I remain in respectful disagreement. The Lord bless you today, Imagican.
I am not without pride, that's for sure, and I am ashamed to say that in the face of what Christ has done for me I think it, and display it, far too often. I do not understand, though, how being chosen by someone is prideful?
When Christ came, He came for the sinners, the broken vessels. I always think of what a motley crew my believing friends are, and the patchwork of different walks He has brought them out of...it is a beautiful tapestry that He has woven in the church, and they are beautiful only because His love radiates from them, and binds them. I think the beauty of grace is that God can make something useful, out of something shattered, broken, and useless, and that kind, and loving, restoration gives me a desire to be used by Him in any way He decides.
I was plucked out the bonds of death, and given life by the Spirit of God, and I had nothing to do with it. I am only what He has made me. I love God because He first loved me. I could never say that I did anything in my own merit to choose life, because I have no merit of my own apart from Him. I was dead, and He granted me life, this is what Scripture teaches, and He has also granted me an opportunity to obey Him, and serve Him with my life.
I apologize for any tone of arrogance that you may have found offensive in my prior posts, or maybe you just find the belief arrogant, I'm not sure exactly, but it was not my intention just the same. I remain in respectful disagreement. The Lord bless you today, Imagican.
lovely
Member
Hi Thess,
I do not take issue with the meaning of the word "All" in those Scriptures. I believe God DESIRES ALL men to be saved, so please do not misunderstand me there. I trust Scripture. I believe He DESIRED this before the Foundations of the World, but I do not believe this is necessarily His DECREED WILL. I think I mentioned this in another similar poll of JM's. I am still pondering this in Scripture, but the most obvious example is that Christ desired that the Bitter cup pass from Him, but He did the Will of Father. If God Willed all men to be saved, then they would be. I think that God's desire is separate from His Will, or economy. I hope that makes sense. The Lord bless you.
I do not take issue with the meaning of the word "All" in those Scriptures. I believe God DESIRES ALL men to be saved, so please do not misunderstand me there. I trust Scripture. I believe He DESIRED this before the Foundations of the World, but I do not believe this is necessarily His DECREED WILL. I think I mentioned this in another similar poll of JM's. I am still pondering this in Scripture, but the most obvious example is that Christ desired that the Bitter cup pass from Him, but He did the Will of Father. If God Willed all men to be saved, then they would be. I think that God's desire is separate from His Will, or economy. I hope that makes sense. The Lord bless you.
T
thessalonian
Guest
First of all in the passage you refer to it does not use the word desire:
KJV
Matthew 26 [Context] [Commentary]
39. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
RSV
39: And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."
It uses the word will for Christ's words. The problem in your exegesis of the passage is that you are making a mistake called Monothelism, i.e. Christ only had one will. Christ had both a human will and a divine will. Therefore it was possible for him in his humanity to will that he not go through the crusifixion. But he was still united with the divine will. The way you are looking at the passage causes a contradiction if Christ only has the divine will. You can't desire something and not will it at the same time. This just makes no sense to me. The example you use does not apply to the passage in titus. If Christ was only of one will then it would be a contradiction for him to not will to go to the crusifixion and yet his father to will him to. God does not will two things at once. Do you see the problem?
Blessings
KJV
Matthew 26 [Context] [Commentary]
39. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
RSV
39: And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."
It uses the word will for Christ's words. The problem in your exegesis of the passage is that you are making a mistake called Monothelism, i.e. Christ only had one will. Christ had both a human will and a divine will. Therefore it was possible for him in his humanity to will that he not go through the crusifixion. But he was still united with the divine will. The way you are looking at the passage causes a contradiction if Christ only has the divine will. You can't desire something and not will it at the same time. This just makes no sense to me. The example you use does not apply to the passage in titus. If Christ was only of one will then it would be a contradiction for him to not will to go to the crusifixion and yet his father to will him to. God does not will two things at once. Do you see the problem?
Blessings
lovely
Member
Hi Drew,
Drew wrote:
I do believe that God desires all, as I said in my post to Thess, but I do not believe that God wills all. So, I will try to explain my "uncommon sense" reading of 2 Peter 3 specifically verse 9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." I am not using this to support Calvinism, btw, nor do I believe it can be used to support Arminiansim.
The UR doctrine uses this to support that ALL will be saved, every human soul, but they do not consider the scoffers of the present generation, and the perdition of the ungodly men in the day of judgement, the unbelievers of the future generations, that Peter speaks about.
I am assuming that most believe that not ALL will be saved, as Scripture teaches in an overall manner, and in this passage as well. I will proceed with this assumption in mind.
So, if not all will believe, how is God willing that none should perish? We could just assume that willing means desire, but I think there is more to it than that. I think willing means will, not desires. I think there are some clues in the passage to help, the references to the future in the same chapter, the purpose of the writing, and the audience Peter is addressing.
We know that Peter is speaking of the present time to the future time (2 Peter 3:3-8), and the length of it seemingly long to the scoffers (hence the mocking), and to the believers (hence the encouragement of Peter to remember that God is not slack). Why is it so long? Peter tells us that it is not long to God, but only to us (v. 8), but God does have a reason why He is allowing time to continue, and it is not because He is slack. Why? Because God is longsuffering. To whom? "to usward" (v.9) Why is God being so long suffering? Because He is not willing that any should perish. Who are the any? Those to whom God is being longsuffering, "to usward", the believers.
So, I think in these phrases, "not willing that any should perish", and "all should come to repentance" the "any" and "all" are of a particular group. Those for whom God is being longsuffering. The very ones that Peter is addressing, the believers. He is telling them to understand that God is longsuffering (that is the encouragement that God is not slack), for the sake of believers, the group that the "any", and "all", are referring to. Those who actually will not perish, and who will come to repentance, because of God's continued longsuffering. Specifically the believers of the present generation who have yet to come, and the those in the future generations who will come. None of them shall perish, but all of them shall repent. This is now a true statement in context. The God who Created the Heavens knows this, and is longsuffering "to usward", as Peter says. The "usward" are believers...those who of whom God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The heart of the matter, I do believe that God knows who they are, and will not come until there are no more left. Even if you believe that one chooses to be saved, God knows who those will be too, in His Sovereignty. It is saying that God wills that none, who are His, or who choose Him (for the Arminians), will perish, but that all of them shall come to repentance by His longsuffering. This is why we should be patient for the day of the Lord, for the sake of fellow believers. I think the entire passage supports this. The Lord bless you.
Drew wrote:
I do believe that God desires all, as I said in my post to Thess, but I do not believe that God wills all. So, I will try to explain my "uncommon sense" reading of 2 Peter 3 specifically verse 9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." I am not using this to support Calvinism, btw, nor do I believe it can be used to support Arminiansim.
The UR doctrine uses this to support that ALL will be saved, every human soul, but they do not consider the scoffers of the present generation, and the perdition of the ungodly men in the day of judgement, the unbelievers of the future generations, that Peter speaks about.
I am assuming that most believe that not ALL will be saved, as Scripture teaches in an overall manner, and in this passage as well. I will proceed with this assumption in mind.
So, if not all will believe, how is God willing that none should perish? We could just assume that willing means desire, but I think there is more to it than that. I think willing means will, not desires. I think there are some clues in the passage to help, the references to the future in the same chapter, the purpose of the writing, and the audience Peter is addressing.
We know that Peter is speaking of the present time to the future time (2 Peter 3:3-8), and the length of it seemingly long to the scoffers (hence the mocking), and to the believers (hence the encouragement of Peter to remember that God is not slack). Why is it so long? Peter tells us that it is not long to God, but only to us (v. 8), but God does have a reason why He is allowing time to continue, and it is not because He is slack. Why? Because God is longsuffering. To whom? "to usward" (v.9) Why is God being so long suffering? Because He is not willing that any should perish. Who are the any? Those to whom God is being longsuffering, "to usward", the believers.
So, I think in these phrases, "not willing that any should perish", and "all should come to repentance" the "any" and "all" are of a particular group. Those for whom God is being longsuffering. The very ones that Peter is addressing, the believers. He is telling them to understand that God is longsuffering (that is the encouragement that God is not slack), for the sake of believers, the group that the "any", and "all", are referring to. Those who actually will not perish, and who will come to repentance, because of God's continued longsuffering. Specifically the believers of the present generation who have yet to come, and the those in the future generations who will come. None of them shall perish, but all of them shall repent. This is now a true statement in context. The God who Created the Heavens knows this, and is longsuffering "to usward", as Peter says. The "usward" are believers...those who of whom God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The heart of the matter, I do believe that God knows who they are, and will not come until there are no more left. Even if you believe that one chooses to be saved, God knows who those will be too, in His Sovereignty. It is saying that God wills that none, who are His, or who choose Him (for the Arminians), will perish, but that all of them shall come to repentance by His longsuffering. This is why we should be patient for the day of the Lord, for the sake of fellow believers. I think the entire passage supports this. The Lord bless you.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Sorry lovely, I'll have to look at your posts later and see if I am missing something but as a human in my fallen nature I might desire to go fishing but being lazy I may not get my tail up off the couch. I can't see God desiring anything and then not doing anything about it. The passage in titus is present tense. Not he desired in the beginning but now he doesn't will it. I can't separate desire from will I guess. At least not in the divine.
I look at Paul's travels in Acts. How many people did he go to preaching the Gospel. This was grace. God was doing something about their salvation. He was crying out to them through Paul! I SENT MY SON FOR YOU! But they would not listen. It was not that God did not give them the grace. It is that they did not receive it. The Word is grace and God sent it to them. He did do something about it. He did desire their salvation, their acceptance of the truth, via. sending Paul to them to preach. But they rejected it.
Blessings
I look at Paul's travels in Acts. How many people did he go to preaching the Gospel. This was grace. God was doing something about their salvation. He was crying out to them through Paul! I SENT MY SON FOR YOU! But they would not listen. It was not that God did not give them the grace. It is that they did not receive it. The Word is grace and God sent it to them. He did do something about it. He did desire their salvation, their acceptance of the truth, via. sending Paul to them to preach. But they rejected it.
Blessings