Does Christ

[lovely]

Hi Thess,

I am sorry, Thess, I was probably very unclear to you because when I am in a hurry my thoughts move faster than my fingers. My posts start to be written in a way that assumes that you can read my thoughts when I do this.

I am still studying this matter, myself. I believe they were preaching the Gospel, and that it was rejected too, but I also believe that these things are utilized by God to accomplish His will, decreed will. I think if God decreed, all to be saved, they would be. I am saying that God's desire, does not necessarily mean it is also God's will, or choice. I believe desire, and will, are two different things.

Let me define, and perhaps it could be more clear. desire is a hope, or a longing for. I suppose will can mean that too, but God's decreed will, or God's will as I mean it, is a choice...a past, present, future unchanging choice. God's will, or His decreed will, was for Christ to come and die for His children. It was set before the cement was even poured. A desire does not have to be acted upon, and there could be good, or bad, reasons for that.

I am not suggesting, as in your analogy, that God is ever sinful. That He's not doing something He should be, because of a sinful motive. I am suggesting, that in His perfection, God's decreed will may be above His own desire, as with Christ coming to die, for a grander purpose. Desiring above all to do the decreed will of the Father, Christ submitted to the cross, and served not His own desire to have the bitter cup pass from Him. His desire to please the Father was greater than His desire to please Himself, and so His decreed will was to please the Father...This is a will that must happen to accomplish God's plan.

Real life analogy...

I desire to live in Colorado, but all of my family live in Missouri, and it is best for my children to live near our family. I desire to do what is best for my children more than I desire to live in Colorado, so my will (or choice) is to live in Missouri. I have honor as a mother if I follow my desire as a mother to do what is best for my children. I lack honor as a mother, if I follow a desire in me that serves another priority...such as I am a friend, so I desire to stay in Colorado with my friend Barb, because that is what is best for her, my friend. Obviously, my children should come before my friend, so I must sacrifice my desire to be a good friend, for the sake of my desire to be a good mother. There is no sin, but only honor, in this.

I do not want to defend this too far, because I am only just studying it myself, and have no real drawn conclusions, or solid Scriptural support as of yet. I admit it is opinion only. It is just something that I have been looking into the Word about. The Lord bless you.

 

[mutzrein]

How VERY easy is it for one to allow PRIDE to sneak in it's ugly head. For one to 'create' the idea that they were PERSONALLY chosen BY GOD is PRIDEFUL indeed. And this does NOTHING but separate, through pride, different 'groups' that profess to BE CHRISTIAN. Of what possible import could it be to witness or offer testimony if ALL were not able to come to the Lord? Why offer the Word to start with. Wouldn't those CHOSEN simply KNOW God from birth? Rediculous to think that Christ ONLY died for those 'pre-chosen'. Yes, God may have known from the beginning WHO would and who wouldn't make the proper choice. But he DID NOT make ANY to parish. That is the point behind the 'freedom of choice' that EACH of us has been given.

MEC

Hiya MEC – I must contend with you over this one. Now I did have a thought to responding to each one of your 10 (yes I counted them :-? ) statements / sentences above but that gets a bit messy for me. I certainly could, but I’m a simple man so can I just take it slowly – perhaps get you to respond to a question or two rather than have me launch forth into an epistle. (I see that you are better than me in that regard so I will not compete there) :

You know the way I write MEC and I know you well enough from what you have written to say that there is no doubt in our respective minds that we are each born of God. I do not bring into question any element pertaining to your relationship with God, your love and desire for Him, your love for others and therefore your desire for others to know Him as you do.

OK - now there is one all-encompassing premise upon which the gospel is based. And when I consider any theology, any doctrine, any creed, any thought, any belief, any statement, even any scripture, I have to look at it in the light of this premise.

And what is the premise?
That our righteousness is in Christ.
That we are made righteous by God through faith in Christ.
That there is nothing that we can do to achieve ANY righteous by what we do, because in so doing we become self righteous and we are clothed in filthy rags - and of course these are not fit for the kingdom of God.

Now we agree, do we not, that to enter or see the kingdom of God, we must be born of the flesh and of the Spirit. So, we are born both of natural parents and also of God.

So, my first question is: How much of a choice did you have in being born of the flesh?
And my second: How much of a choice did you have in being born of the Spirit?

The Lord bless you
Ed

 

[thessalonian]

Lovely,

Your analogy is fine. Humanly speaking I do think that we can desire things and never be able to fullfill them because we have conflicts with desire and will. As you said this is not sinful. It is a part of our limited humanity. I am not sure however that God can have such conflicts within himself however. I believe that out of love for his creation he allows free will and that is what prevents some men from coming to him. He provides grace in many forms thourgh his creation, by the laws implanted on men's hearts, by the way he provides for ALL MEN, "the sun shines on the good and the bad", through is Church and through those who love us. If we deny him all are without excuse.

I think the issue with not taking free will in to account and God not overpowering it is that it to me says that God does not have in some sense the power to save some. This is problematic to say the least. Iresistable grace to me is the doctrine that is most problematic in calvanism. It causes such dilemas. I see all men recieving grace in many ways and some simply not acknowledging the God from wence it comes.

Blessings

 

[Imagican]

I think I didn't offer a 'clear enough' explanation of my feelings on this matter. I was refering to those that believe that we MUST be PRE-Chosen in order to know God. I must admit that I didn't word my statement very well. God DOES indeed CHOOSE those to whom He reveals Himself and His will. I was simply refering to those that believe in a pre-choice and that others HAVE NO CHOICE. Please re-read my post with this understanding in mind and see if it's not more palatable.

And lovely, you are absolutely right. You misunderstood what I was 'trying' to convey for my poorly chosen words. I was simply trying to point out that God wishes that ALL be His children and that it is UP TO US whether we allow Him into our lives or not.

Sorry for the confusion guys. Please re-read and see if what I have tried to clear up here doesn't 'fit' a little better.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And Mutz,

If God decides to intervene in the lives of those that know Him or those that don't, He does what He will.

You are absolutely right: If God chooses to reveal Himself, there is NOTHING that can hinder Him. We ARE born of flesh and those that so choose, are born yet again, in Spirit.

My statement was directed at the idea that those that will be saved were chosen from the 'beginning' and NO ONE else has a chance. I am a FIRM believer that ANYONE can be 'saved'. Many may not due to their insistance upon relying on 'something' other than God. But that will be their choice.

And many times we create our views or understanding and through this, in essence, end up placing limits on God and His ability to DO ANYTHING. In other words, one may say or think that, 'one MUST...................' when in reality, those things that we may find impossible are NOT So For God.

Let me state once more for the record, my poorly chosen words in my first post on this thread didn't convey what I was trying to say. I was refering to those that believe in a 'pre-destiny' and that those that 'were't' chosen from the foundation of the planet are NEVER given the chance to be 'born again'. Hope this makes my statements a bit clearer.

MEC