[_ Old Earth _] Early homosapiens and salvation

[Cygnus]

That's not a problem for evolution.
It's a problem for you.
Your personal understanding (such as it is) of theology and science is not the basis of all truth for all of theology and all of science.
I know, big disappointment for you, huh? Oh well...

Once again....you dodged the issue.

 

[Cygnus]

No, you're singing a different tune lately and are doing what civilwarbuff said. You never have explained anything about evolution but changed tactics to twist peoples words. So feel free to explain how evolutoionary theory works in with scripture at all, since that's your baby and people have been asking you to explain yourself for..a long time and you wont. Your answer can't be oh you dont believe scripture, when you haven't shown where scripture agrees with evo at all. So you're not worth even responding to anymore.

Well put.
They won't explain...because they can't.

 

[Cygnus]

Would it offend you if God made the first two people H. erectus instead of our particular species? Why would it matter at all to God? And if it doesn't matter to Him, why would it matter to anyone?

It's not what the Bible says...it's your false Genesis that offends christians.

 

[Jim Parker]

Once again....you dodged the issue.

NO.
The issue is EXACTLY your very flawed understanding of both science and theology on which you base your also very flawed notions.

 

[Cygnus]

You're still stuck on the notion that God did it naturally. These two wouldn't have to be genetically different from the rest. What happened that made them different is that direct gift of an immortal soul from God.

If we didn't have an immortal soul, and were just like the other animals, what then? I don't think you've given this very much thought.

Where does the Bible tell us God choose 2 from the population to give a should to?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Ah, so everyone was human but no one had souls until Adam and Eve.....is that it? You still got the problem that before Adam and Eve the rest of humanity got squat......no soul....no heaven....

 

[Free]

General warning to everyone to stick to the topic and stop with the trolling/inflammatory posts.

 

[Barbarian]

No kidding....because we all go back to Adam.

No. We don't automatically inherit an immortal soul because we are descended from Adam. We get that directly from God.

A soul is not merely the consequence of a working human nervous system. In my opinion, that idea puts too much faith in nature, and not enough in God.

 

[jasonc]

No. We don't automatically inherit an immortal soul because we are descended from Adam. We get that directly from God.

A soul is not merely the consequence of a working human nervous system. In my opinion, that idea puts too much faith in nature, and not enough in God.

We are a soul,we don't have one.

Ugh ,hebrew at least go find a knowledgable .God isn't going to ressurect an undying soul ,as those don't die ,but put them in a body fitting for their places for eternity.

 

[Barbarian]

Ah, so everyone was human

There have been a lot of species of human. At what point did He pick a pair of humans and give them immortal souls? I don't know. Would it matter?

but no one had souls until Adam and Eve.....is that it?

Until Adam, no one had been given a soul directly by God. This, He indicates, makes all the difference.

You still got the problem that before Adam and Eve the rest of humanity got squat......no soul....no heaven....

You think dogs go to heaven? Maybe they do. Doesn't matter as far as our salvation is concerned. We are like God, being able to make moral decisions and thereby capable of fellowship with Him.

We shouldn't make this a matter of pride in what we are. We are nothing whatever without Him.

 

[Barbarian]

We are a soul,we don't have one.

Correct. As C.S. Lewis observed.

 

[jasonc]

Correct. As C.S. Lewis observed.

Therefore any pre Adamic creature had intelligence, emotions,creativity.these are all part of what we are.thus not viable as all these would have to be sons of Adam and cursed by sin.

 

[Barbarian]

One other point.....the new humans live centuries versus the non-humans that they came from survive 3-4 decades.....Talk about an evolutionary leap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It appears that H. erectus lived roughly as long as H. sapiens; there doesn't seem to be a big difference in the age distribution of these and of Cro-Magnons.

 

[Barbarian]

Therefore any pre Adamic creature had intelligence, emotions,creativity.these are all part of what we are.thus not viable as all these would have to be sons of Adam and cursed by sin.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. The difference between late hominins and early humans is very small as per anatomy, brain size, etc.

But there was a significant change in behavior.

Which is what you might expect, if God had made them living souls.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. The difference between late hominins and early humans is very small as per anatomy, brain size, etc.

But there was a significant change in behavior.

Which is what you might expect, if God had made them living souls.

A human woukd have to mate with one, their children might not be quite human and no,you aren't getting what a souk is.

It's not some ethereal ghost ,it's our body, mind,personality.enotional seat.

An proto human had culture,family ,this is known.hardly sub human these.the vero man is pretty old.he had drawings,carvings ,wasn't alone and had a clan.

 

[Barbarian]

A human woukd have to mate with one, their children might not be quite human and no,you aren't getting what a souk is.

It's not some ethereal ghost ,it's our body, mind,personality.enotional seat.

Your objection is very deep and your opinion is held by a great many people including a good number of Christians. But that is not consistent with Genesis, in my opinion. The doctrine is called "epiphenominalism", and there's some evidence for it. Still, God's word seems to deny it. I think an argument could be made that a human soul is partly an epiphenomenon of the body, but I wouldn't go that far myself.

Accordingly, epiphenomenalism in the philosophy of mind holds that our actions have purely physical causes (neurophysiological changes in the brain, say), while our intention, desire or volition to act does not cause our actions but is itself caused by the physical causes of our actions. To assume that regular successions of mental and physical events—volitions followed by appropriate behavior, fear followed by an increased heart rate, pains followed by wincings etc.—reflect causal processes is to commit the fallacy of post hoc, propter hoc: "The soul stands related to the body as the bell of a clock to the works, and consciousness answers to the sound which the bell gives out when it is struck" (Huxley 1874, 242).
http://www.iep.utm.edu/epipheno/

An proto human had culture,family ,this is known.hardly sub human these.the vero man is pretty old.he had drawings,carvings ,wasn't alone and had a clan.

Vero Man is an anatomically modern human, essentially us. H. erectus, even archaic H. sapiens were notably different.

 

[jasonc]

Your objection is very deep and your opinion is held by a great many people including a good number of Christians. But that is not consistent with Genesis, in my opinion. The doctrine is called "epiphenominalism", and there's some evidence for it. Still, God's word seems to deny it. I think an argument could be made that a human soul is partly an epiphenomenon of the body, but I wouldn't go that far myself.

Accordingly, epiphenomenalism in the philosophy of mind holds that our actions have purely physical causes (neurophysiological changes in the brain, say), while our intention, desire or volition to act does not cause our actions but is itself caused by the physical causes of our actions. To assume that regular successions of mental and physical events—volitions followed by appropriate behavior, fear followed by an increased heart rate, pains followed by wincings etc.—reflect causal processes is to commit the fallacy of post hoc, propter hoc: "The soul stands related to the body as the bell of a clock to the works, and consciousness answers to the sound which the bell gives out when it is struck" (Huxley 1874, 242).
http://www.iep.utm.edu/epipheno/



Vero Man is an anatomically modern human, essentially us. H. erectus, even archaic H. sapiens were notably different.

The problem is that those are sub human,a mentally challenged person fits that bill. Lower intelligence.sorry you are defining the soul as an a uber modified human when my sister has limited intelligence and is closer to those sub human description. Acts on impulse, yet compassionate.

 

[civilwarbuff]

At what point did He pick a pair of humans and give them immortal souls? I don't know. Would it matter?

Why not ask Adam and Eve if it matters?

There have been a lot of species of human.

Only according to man.....you really want to trust man's judgement over God's? How has that worked out in the past?

Until Adam, no one had been given a soul directly by God. This, He indicates, makes all the difference.

So, every "species of human" (your quote) cannot abide in heaven (no soul). If no soul are they human?
And now you are just dropping off the making sense point......

 

[civilwarbuff]

It appears that H. erectus lived roughly as long as H. sapiens; there doesn't seem to be a big difference in the age distribution of these and of Cro-Magnons.

According to scripture Adam lived how long?
Gen 5:5 Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.
That would be quite the evolutionary leap considering even until the early 1900's 40-50 years was considered an average life span.
Ah, but Genesis, according to you, is just a parable. Care to explain the parable of Adams long life span?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. The difference between late hominins and early humans is very small as per anatomy, brain size, etc.

But there was a significant change in behavior.

Which is what you might expect, if God had made them living souls.

Why?