End Times Confusing - Preterism

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post #36
Since you admit math.24:29 is a quotation/ reference to Isa.13:10 I submit the following.
Obviously the stars did nit fa from the sky in Isaiahs day. Isaiah used this symbolic language to speak of Gods judgment on Israel at the hands of a foreign nation. It it not reasonable then to say that Jesus is also not prophesying of the literal stars falling from the sky either. To a Jewish mind Jesus' words would have brought to memory the words of Isaiah and they would have understood that Jesus was also using the same symbolic language to prophesy the destruction of Israel at the hands of Rome. (this is interpreting scripture by scripture)

Also when Jesus says "...the SUN shall be darkened, and the MOON shall not give her light, and the STARS shall fall from heaven....
He is again speaking symbolically that Israel as a nation will no longer be the light of the world, they will no longer bear the glory of God as a nation

Consider Gen.37:9-10 (Joseph had a dream)
....the SUN and the MOON and the STARS made obedience to me...His father rebuked him....Shall I (sun) and thy mother (moon) and thy brethren (stars) indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee..."

Jacob understood that the SUN MOON and STARS represented the nation of Israel.

In math. 24:29 Jesus us again speaking to a Jewish auduence which would understand his words. Jesus us symbolically saying that the nation of Israel will be darkened, will no longer bear light, and will fall from their heavenly position as the holy people in the sight if all nation.

Jesus' twofold message is clear to anyone with an OT understanding.
He has used the symbolic words of his own prophets to warn Israel that judgment was coming at the hands of a foreign nation and that because if this judgment the nation would no longer and could no longer reflect the glory of God in the earth.
(this is interpreting the scriptures by the scriptures)

Jesus the greatest of all prophets uses prophetic language which his listeners would understand to prophesy of future events which would take place within their generation.
This is so plain, pray about it.

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

but the 4th Trumpet is also 1/3 of the light of the moon and sun darkened.

The real message here is metaphoric, and can be better understood through reading about the 'Days of the Lord' visited upon other cultures in the OT.

Hmmm...maybe the whole bible is metaphoric. So who decides what is metaphoric or not? Ahh....i get it if it is something that doesn't in with one's belief system then it will be called metaphoric i.e. not true.

BINGO!

I for one take things as literally as possible.

Hence - I count 4 possibly 5 literal abomination of desolation.

1. Destruction of First temple
2. Greeks sacrifice Pig in Temple
3. Destruction of Second Temple'
4. Mosque built over the Holy of Holies
5. Possible Hybrid Catholic/Islamic religious leader presiding over Mt Zion.

Yes scripture should be taken literally. I understand that there are places that are metaphorical and allegorical especially in the book of Revelation. Usually one can determine if something is a metaphorical with proper hermaneutics. Ultimately the Spirit will guide His own in what is to be taken literally. Men will continue to haggle over scripture until Jesus returns.

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post #37
since you also admit that verse 30 of math24 is a reference to Dan.7:13 I submit the following.
Dan7:13 is Jesus' ascension to the fathers right hand when he receives the Kingdom.
We will read acts1:9 and then jump to dan7:13 to show this
"and when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight.....and I saw in the night visions and behold one like the Son of man came eith the clouds of heaven..."

What Luke describes is the ascension, and what Daniel saw was his enthronement.

To understand jesus' words in math24:30 we must stop thinking "second coming". This has nothing to do with a "second coming". (Jesus said this generation would not pass until all these things were fulfilled)

The word "see" also means to "perceive or to understand". For example, if I say to you do you "see what I mean", I am really saying do you understand what I mean.

When Jesus says "you shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" he is making reference to his exaltation to the throne as seen in Daniel 7.

The understanding is this. Those who would witness the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the nation would "see" (perceive and understand) that Jesus was in fact enthroned in heaven as the Christ of God, they would understand that he had come to the Father in the "clouds of heaven". The destruction of Jerusalem was the "sign of the Son of msn in heaven" (v30). It signified or signified that he had in fact received the kingdom as rightful king.

Look at math 26:64 to confirm what I sm saying.
Obviously Jesus did not mean that Ciaphas would see his "second coming", of course. Jesus again used OT prophecy (Dan.7:13-14, ps.110:1) to reveal to Ciaphas that he was the Christ, the King-priest messiah.
He told Ciaphas that he would also "see" (perceive and understand) that he was in fact the "son of man" which Daniel described and the "priest forever" which the psalmist spoke of.

My brothers, we must have a clear OT understanding of what Jesus was tring to say. Math24 has nothing to do with a "second coming", he spoke of his "coming" to Jerusalem in judgment and his "coming" to the Father to be enthroned and to receive his kingdom.

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post 39-39
You said No. Can you please explain why Jesus was not referring to his contemporary generation in verse 34 when he said "this generation"

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post 41 (JLB)
1. Of course there us mention if 70 ad in the olivet discourse (math.2-3, mark 2-4 luke 21:5-7, 20-22
2. Then what age does it refer to? There is no such phrase in scripture as "the church age" either
3. Are you suggesting that you and I are to "watch" for an the AOD which is to be set up in a temple that does not exist? What he said to Peter, James, and John (mark.13:3) he said to "all that generation" who would live to "see" all these things. The generation which had the temple in their midst would "see", and therefore was to "watch"
4.You are ignoring plain and simple grammar
5-6. I already dealt with the OT scriptural understanding of math24:29-30 in a previous post
7-8. Jesus said "this generation will not pass till ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled.
The ALL THESE THINGS Jesus was referring to was everything from verse 2-34, (his entire discourse up to that point). Of course the destruction of Jerusalem (v2) is a part of "all these things"
This us seen more clearly in Luke.
(v20) "and when YOU SHALL SEE Jerusalem compasses with armies then know that the desolation thereof is nigh".......then verse 32 says ..."this generation shall not pass until ALL be fulfilled"
Surely the destruction of Jerusalem is part of the ALL that would be fulfilled before "that generation" passed away!

The generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem was the same generation that saw the AOD. Both of these events are a part of "all these things" which Jesus said would be fulfilled within "that generation".

You can't just pick the AOD out of context and throw it into the future. The OAD is part of "all these thing" just as the destruction of Jerusalem is.

If you can show me in the discourse why "all these things" does not refer to the entire discourse (math.2-34 mark 13:2-30 Luke 21:6-32) then your position is valid. But, if you can't show me in the discourse why "all these things" does not refer to the entire discourse than you gave a serious problem with your interpretation.

The fact is, the generation which witnessed the destruction of jerusalem in 70ad was the generation that would see everything else mentioned in the discourse. The generation which saw Jetusalem fall would be the generation which would not pass until "all these things" were fulfilled.

 

[Eugene]

Re: End Times confusing

Seems clear to me that all prophesied of Matthew Chapter Twenty-four did not come to pass. The generation that sees those things will indeed not pass until their completion in the future. Think about it; Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. That my friend is two hundred million coming, and there has never been an army that size.

Many of the things you want to see as past depend on the Lord's Day as implemented. We can go to the judgment of the Church in Revelation Chapters Two and Three to see the error of that. The Church has not come to Revelation 3:16, So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. The Church is still here.

I would ask where and what you think Jesus is doing at this present time. Is it not the record of Jesus walking among the candlesticks judging our present walk, and sitting in our Father's throne as our advocate. When do you think Jesus will put down all nations ruling in usurpation? We read in 1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. Yet in Hebrews 2:8 we see not yet all things put under him. When do we see Revelation 4:1 things hereafter from the beginning of the Lord's Day?

 

[endtimesdeut32/70AD]

Re: End Times confusing

One perspective in which I am uncertain about between 'hope of glory' and myself is that I contemplate the pisaibulity that Dan 7:13 refers to after Jesus had risen but before he alliwed the disciples to touch him yet. He says to Mary, I believe it is: don't touch me yet fir I've nit yet ascended to thw father. Aparently, he ascended to the fatherbetween then and when he appeared later that day. (John 20:16-23 and then 8 days later. (John 20:24-29) For your consideration 'hope of glory' Thanks for the posts.

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: End Times confusing

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

but the 4th Trumpet is also 1/3 of the light of the moon and sun darkened.

The real message here is metaphoric, and can be better understood through reading about the 'Days of the Lord' visited upon other cultures in the OT.

Hmmm...maybe the whole bible is metaphoric. So who decides what is metaphoric or not? Ahh....i get it if it is something that doesn't in with one's belief system then it will be called metaphoric i.e. not true.

All language is at the most basic level metaphoric. The only way anything can be correctly communicated is if the sender and receiver share the same rules for how particular realities are represented symbolically through a common language. Otherwise you just have literal jibberish; confusion unless you can discern the original meaning by assuming the correct spirit in which it was intended.

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post 47 (grappler)
No men will not haggle over scripture until the Lord returns.
Eph.4:11-13 says the 5 fold ministry is given so that the church would come to the "unity of the faith"....unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"
That's why we throw off denominational doctrines and embrace " the faith" which is the doctrine of the apostles.
The purpose of the Church is to become unified in one faith and grow up into the fulness of Christ. Jesus will nit and cannot return UNTIL we accomplish our purpose in the earth. It is "Christ in us the hope of glory"!

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

but the 4th Trumpet is also 1/3 of the light of the moon and sun darkened.

The real message here is metaphoric, and can be better understood through reading about the 'Days of the Lord' visited upon other cultures in the OT.

Hmmm...maybe the whole bible is metaphoric. So who decides what is metaphoric or not? Ahh....i get it if it is something that doesn't in with one's belief system then it will be called metaphoric i.e. not true.

All language is at the most basic level metaphoric. The only way anything can be correctly communicated is if the sender and receiver share the same rules for how particular realities are represented symbolically through a common language. Otherwise you just have literal jibberish; confusion unless you can discern the original meaning by assuming the correct spirit in which it was intended.

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. I hear his voice...it transcends mere language and metaphors.

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Response to post 51 (Eugene)
You said " the generation that see those things will indeed nit pass until their completion in the future"

You cause me to repeat myself my brother.
Once again, "those things" includes the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad. You can't say the "future generation" will see everything come to pass except the destruction of Jerusalem. ONE generation would see "all these things" be fulfilled. Because the 1st century generation saw Jerusalem destroyed they of necessity must have been the generation to see all other things come to pass as well.

There is no getting around this, you cannot separate the destruction of Jerusalem from the rest of "all these things".
Also note. The phrase "this generation" is used about 13times in the gospels besides in the olivet discourse and it always refers to that contemporary generation, search it out!
Why in the olivet discourse do we think that "this generation" refers to a generation thousands of years in the future?
Please deal with my above point regarding "this generation"

I will answer your question "what do you believe Jesus is doing now" when you respond by scripture to my point regarding "this generation".

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post 47 (grappler)
No men will not haggle over scripture until the Lord returns.
Eph.4:11-13 says the 5 fold ministry is given so that the church would come to the "unity of the faith"....unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ"
That's why we throw off denominational doctrines and embrace " the faith" which is the doctrine of the apostles.
The purpose of the Church is to become unified in one faith and grow up into the fulness of Christ. Jesus will nit and cannot return UNTIL we accomplish our purpose in the earth. It is "Christ in us the hope of glory"!

We are "haggling" now. As far as your declaration that Jesus will nit [sic] return until you accomplish whatever purpose you seem to have is rather bold and silly. Can you provide scripture that teaches that?

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post 52 (endtimesduet32)

I believe the understanding of what Jesus told Mary was not about a literal "touch" but about "handling him", that is "partaking of the risen Christ"
She wanted to still receive him "as a man" and this is not how one receives him after his resurrection. We must receive him as the "Spirit", as the Christ. It was not until after his ascension that the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of the Son) was sent, and then Mary could "touch him"; that is, partake of the risen Christ within her.
To sum up what I'm saying, may wanted him to remain with them as a man, but Jesus was to ascend and come again to remain with them by the Spirit.
Hope that helps

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: End Times confusing

Hmmm...maybe the whole bible is metaphoric. So who decides what is metaphoric or not? Ahh....i get it if it is something that doesn't in with one's belief system then it will be called metaphoric i.e. not true.

All language is at the most basic level metaphoric. The only way anything can be correctly communicated is if the sender and receiver share the same rules for how particular realities are represented symbolically through a common language. Otherwise you just have literal jibberish; confusion unless you can discern the original meaning by assuming the correct spirit in which it was intended.

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. I hear his voice...it transcends mere language and metaphors.

So you're a literal sheep?

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post 57 (grappler)
Yes I most surely can, and I will. This is the "heartbeat" of the "gospel of the Kingdom"
We will deal with one portion of scripture at a time.

Heb.10:12-13 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool"

Jesus has finished his work on the earth (john 19:30) and has been exalted to the throne of God where he sits a King over all. He now reigns expecting UNTIL he enemies are subdued before him.
Question: How will all enemies be made his footstool, and who will subdue these enemies?

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Hmmm...maybe the whole bible is metaphoric. So who decides what is metaphoric or not? Ahh....i get it if it is something that doesn't in with one's belief system then it will be called metaphoric i.e. not true.

All language is at the most basic level metaphoric. The only way anything can be correctly communicated is if the sender and receiver share the same rules for how particular realities are represented symbolically through a common language. Otherwise you just have literal jibberish; confusion unless you can discern the original meaning by assuming the correct spirit in which it was intended.

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. I hear his voice...it transcends mere language and metaphors.

So you're a literal sheep?

Yes. If Jesus said so then i am....aren't you? You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post 57 (grappler)
Yes I most surely can, and I will. This is the "heartbeat" of the "gospel of the Kingdom"
We will deal with one portion of scripture at a time.

Heb.10:12-13 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool"

Jesus has finished his work on the earth (john 19:30) and has been exalted to the throne of God where he sits a King over all. He now reigns expecting UNTIL he enemies are subdued before him.
Question: How will all enemies be made his footstool, and who will subdue these enemies?

His enemies will be made his footstool when he returns....ever hear of the battle of the valley of Megiddo?

 

[Hope of glory]

Re: End Times confusing

Grappler, read Heb.10:12-13 again.
Jesus, is enthroned in the heavens (the unseen realm of Spirit), and from the time of his enthronement until now he has been "expecting" until all his enemies are made his footstool. And, until his enemies are made his footstool, he will continue to reign from the heavens.
This scripture dies not say that all enemies will be put under foot when he returns, on the contrary, he is expecting (waiting with anticipation) in heaven UNTIL all enemies are made his footstool!

If Jesus still has to defeat the forces of evil when he returns than he must not have finished the work (john19:30).
Hint: Jesus now rests, it is Christ in us and as us who now works...."Christ in us the hope of glory"

And yes I have heard of the valley of meggido, and it has nothing to do with a future battle featuring Jesus Christ vs the forcse of evil.

 

[Grappler]

Re: End Times confusing

Grappler, read Heb.10:12-13 again.
Jesus, is enthroned in the heavens (the unseen realm of Spirit), and from the time of his enthronement until now he has been "expecting" until all his enemies are made his footstool. And, until his enemies are made his footstool, he will continue to reign from the heavens.
This scripture dies not say that all enemies will be put under foot when he returns, on the contrary, he is expecting (waiting with anticipation) in heaven UNTIL all enemies are made his footstool!

If Jesus still has to defeat the forces of evil when he returns than he must not have finished the work (john19:30).
Hint: Jesus now rests, it is Christ in us and as us who now works...."Christ in us the hope of glory"

And yes I have heard of the valley of meggido, and it has nothing to do with a future battle featuring Jesus Christ vs the forcse of evil.

You must avoid the book of Revelation don't you? Are you not familiar with the teaching that Jesus will return with his saints and defeat the Anti-Christ and False Prophet? I don't know if you keep up with the current geo-political situation very much but you must be very disappointed with yourself if it is up to you and those who believe like you do to bring about peace and the defeat of the forces of darkness. You guys are doing a sorry job...the world waxes worse and worse. The Illuminati's plan of a one-world government, one-world economy, and one-world religion seems to be doing just fine...you guys better step it up a notch and get busy.

 

[endtimesdeut32/70AD]

Re: End Times confusing

Reply to post 52 (endtimesduet32)

I believe the understanding of what Jesus told Mary was not about a literal "touch" but about "handling him", that is "partaking of the risen Christ"
She wanted to still receive him "as a man" and this is not how one receives him after his resurrection. We must receive him as the "Spirit", as the Christ. It was not until after his ascension that the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of the Son) was sent, and then Mary could "touch him"; that is, partake of the risen Christ within her.
To sum up what I'm saying, may wanted him to remain with them as a man, but Jesus was to ascend and come again to remain with them by the Spirit.
Hope that helps

Reasoned response; thanks. I had heard and considered that there was a factor of mosaic covt levitical laws concerning touching 'dead' bodies in play also.

My thoughts and considerations are that He had not been been affirmed by the father as innocent if the charges if blasphemy, and thus received that judgement during the first day of resuurection. When he returns during the firat day, all is affirmed and he speaks again with peaceful authority. The spirit is given then and power and wonders are given shortly after at pentacost. After the test of the persecutiin of Nero and the war with the saints, and the judgement in their favor "sits" and takes effect, the remaining living christians receive the openly revealed favor of the kingdom of faith in God having been proven through his incarnation and revealing.

The issue of when one like the son of man came to the presence of the ancient of days isn't important to me other than possibly gleaning informatiin of why he ascended at that time.

Again, thanks for the other posts also.