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questdriven said:
I seriously doubt most here believe that you can ask for anything and get it, or see it as a way to gain. I think when they say it makes sense, they mean more along the lines of...if you have a negative attitude, you can expect to see everything colored in that negative light. If you have a positive attitude, you can expect to see things colored in a positive light overall. And that does make sense.
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Hi questdriven, I was busy with the VA today. I have seen much of this ideology taught and based on James 4:2 but to get there the verse must be ripped from it's context. I just went back and read chapter 3 and past 4:2 and what is being taught has nothing to do with Name It And Claim It. Getting people to look at a verse in it's context so darn had to do.

I know that some tend to believe I do not use the scriptures enough but though my memory is slipping I do recall that we are commanded to treat the Word of God with reverence and we are instructed not to use the Bible to settle arguments and we should never debate the scriptures but we must never try to formulate a new theology by using verses out of their context and that is exactly what is going on with the Name It And Claim people today. This entire teaching is just false.
 
YosefHayim said:
It's usually a bad idea to take man's ideas and seek verses for them. Many of those verses are a stretch to support a law of attraction doctrine. The law of attraction is something that anyone can do, at least according to the New Age. We should not tread on inclusive grounds. Jesus said that he is the only way to the father. If someone tries to apply those verses, what good is it if they have not Christ the Son of God in them?

"Everything is possible for him that believes"***. Can you define "Everything"? Does this become postmodern?
If I'm believing for ten wives, a mansion, a keg party, and perhaps a little peyote to do with the pagans; that's clearly against the will of God. The law of attraction is an appeal to the flesh.
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Yosef,
You look to be using Mark 9:14-23 out of itś context. Jesus taught this as the disciples were not able to heal a man's child because they were not tapping into the spiritual power that every True Christian holds. Everything here is spiritually applied and has nothing to do with owning a new Rolls.
 
th1b.taylor said:
Hi questdriven, I was busy with the VA today. I have seen much of this ideology taught and based on James 4:2 but to get there the verse must be ripped from it's context. I just went back and read chapter 3 and past 4:2 and what is being taught has nothing to do with Name It And Claim It. Getting people to look at a verse in it's context so darn had to do.

I know that some tend to believe I do not use the scriptures enough but though my memory is slipping I do recall that we are commanded to treat the Word of God with reverence and we are instructed not to use the Bible to settle arguments and we should never debate the scriptures but we must never try to formulate a new theology by using verses out of their context and that is exactly what is going on with the Name It And Claim people today. This entire teaching is just false.
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I understand that. I'm not a believer in the prosperity gospel. But I do think there is some truth to what Osteen and some others say regarding attitude and it's effect on your life (worry does affect your health, mentally and physically)...only in regards to attitude though, none of the stuff about material or financial gain.
 
questdriven said:
I understand that. I'm not a believer in the prosperity gospel. But I do think there is some truth to what Osteen and some others say regarding attitude and it's effect on your life (worry does affect your health, mentally and physically)...only in regards to attitude though, none of the stuff about material or financial gain.
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Yet, we cannot escape the many times God's favor (both spiritually and materially) is shown to individuals simply because of their faith. Abraham and Joseph are great examples.
 
questdriven said:
I understand that. I'm not a believer in the prosperity gospel. But I do think there is some truth to what Osteen and some others say regarding attitude and it's effect on your life (worry does affect your health, mentally and physically)...only in regards to attitude though, none of the stuff about material or financial gain.
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I will concede that Joel is a great motivational speaker and I'll concede that most of the world needs to be motivated but Osteen is not a man of God! Living in the region, when I was working I hung with some of 'his' church members and former members.

Remembering what God has taught us through His Word we absolutely must judge the fruits people produce and he never teaches portions of the scriptures such as Romans 1:18-end and it is reported by members and exmembers that the governing staff is full of openly practising homosexuals. The fruit is rotten.
 
th1b.taylor said:
I will concede that Joel is a great motivational speaker and I'll concede that most of the world needs to be motivated but Osteen is not a man of God! Living in the region, when I was working I hung with some of 'his' church members and former members.

Remembering what God has taught us through His Word we absolutely must judge the fruits people produce and he never teaches portions of the scriptures such as Romans 1:18-end and it is reported by members and exmembers that the governing staff is full of openly practising homosexuals. The fruit is rotten.
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Joel's 'sermons' do kinda bother me, but I'd be very careful of such accusations. Remember, you will give an account for your words one day.

And again, I am no big fan of them, I saw the thing where his wife made the case that worship was, in essence, all about the WORSHIPPER - there are obvious problems with their messages and theology.

I'm just not sure I'd want to make such statements in public.
 
questdriven said:
I understand that. I'm not a believer in the prosperity gospel. But I do think there is some truth to what Osteen and some others say regarding attitude and it's effect on your life (worry does affect your health, mentally and physically)...only in regards to attitude though, none of the stuff about material or financial gain.
Click to expand...
Worry and stress almost destroyed me. Just this past April, I was hospitalized with a serious hear condition (yea, me the big hiker and exerciser!) I knew before hand that worry and stress were harming me, but I had not the courage to make any changes.

Well, I sure made changes! BIG changes, and so far, the cardiologist says I am doing well.

So, sure, some of what Osteen and others are saying is applicable and true. But I am in agreement with others here - there seem to be "issues" with much of what is taught at their church. If Joel was simply a motivational speaker, I'd probably give him high marks in helping people. I'm just not sure of his 'ministry' - there is great evidence he has led many to the Lord, and I don't think we should discount that, but on the other hand, I am disturbed by much of his instruction.
 
Willie T said:
Yet, we cannot escape the many times God's favor (both spiritually and materially) is shown to individuals simply because of their faith. Abraham and Joseph are great examples.
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In my own life as well. I am no Abraham or Joseph - but my faith has been rewarded, one time soley by His reaching out to me to assure me that He and I were still OK, at a time when I THOUGHT I had sinned so much that I'd driven Him away.

Odd, I would think that. Since I would NEVER believe any OTHER person could sin so much/bad/etc that they would drive the Lord away from them!
 
th1b.taylor said:
Hi questdriven, I was busy with the VA today. I have seen much of this ideology taught and based on James 4:2 but to get there the verse must be ripped from it's context. I just went back and read chapter 3 and past 4:2 and what is being taught has nothing to do with Name It And Claim It. Getting people to look at a verse in it's context so darn had to do.

I know that some tend to believe I do not use the scriptures enough but though my memory is slipping I do recall that we are commanded to treat the Word of God with reverence and we are instructed not to use the Bible to settle arguments and we should never debate the scriptures but we must never try to formulate a new theology by using verses out of their context and that is exactly what is going on with the Name It And Claim people today. This entire teaching is just false.
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I agree with all of this, BUT....

1)"We should never debate the scriptures"

Really? I am unsure of what is wrong with doing so. Can you explain? I think I am reading into your statement something you don't mean, but Im not sure.

2) I can't use the Bible to settle an argument?

Why not? Can't I go to scripture to........... well, I'll just let you answer. I think I might agree with you, and I also think I might disagree.
 
Pizza said:
I'm just not sure of his 'ministry' - there is great evidence he has led many to the Lord, and I don't think we should discount that, but on the other hand, I am disturbed by much of his instruction.
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Yes, He is being used by God to awaken people but as I said, the reports from ex members, confirmed by members in attendance mixed with the uncomfortable feelings the Holy Spirit gives when listening to the man make for rotten fruit and Pizza, if we read all of the Sermon on the Mount and pay particular attention to chapter seven, keeping the chapter in context, we are commanded to judge the fruits. This judgement is not unto salvation but rather is the same judgement that keeps one from allowing their children to play on the freeway or the Toll Road at five o'clock.
 
Pizza said:
So, sure, some of what Osteen and others are saying is applicable and true. But I am in agreement with others here - there seem to be "issues" with much of what is taught at their church. If Joel was simply a motivational speaker, I'd probably give him high marks in helping people. I'm just not sure of his 'ministry' - there is great evidence he has led many to the Lord, and I don't think we should discount that, but on the other hand, I am disturbed by much of his instruction.
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Seriously, you'll have to dig deep to find anything straight out unBiblical in Joel's and other prosperity teacher's sermons. The problem I see is they put a subtle twist on Biblical truths to appeal to the greed and covetousness in a person. It boils down to their motivation--that is, IMO, where the problem lies.

I can't judge their motivation. That's ultimately between them and God, but I am commanded to stay away from anyone who "calls himself a brother but is...greedy...or a swindler" (1 Corinthians 5:11 NIV) I have that right of discernment as a believer. That's why I stay away from them--not because their doctrine is incorrect (generally speaking), but because they impress me as being motivated by greed and self indulgence.

It comes down to the 'do as they say, not as they do' thing. But instead of that being in regard to the Pharisee of Jesus' day who handled the law incorrectly and hypocritically, it is in regard to the Pharisee of today who handles the grace of God incorrectly and hypocritically--the same thing being true of both; they are, both, clean on the outside but "inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence" (Matthew 23:25 NIV).
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Aw, come on! All the other kid's parents let them do it!
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... "everyman for himself"... seems to be the theme throughout society. even in 'religious' circles/groups/churches. the parents don't understand authority, so the kids have no idea what is right and wrong (in God's Sight) either.
 
Proof texting is silly, but sometimes people who want to deny a Biblical concept need to be shown some examples of the power at work. I think that is all most people do when they point out various verses.
 
th1b.taylor said:
Yes, He is being used by God to awaken people but as I said, the reports from ex members, confirmed by members in attendance mixed with the uncomfortable feelings the Holy Spirit gives when listening to the man make for rotten fruit and Pizza, if we read all of the Sermon on the Mount and pay particular attention to chapter seven, keeping the chapter in context, we are commanded to judge the fruits. This judgement is not unto salvation but rather is the same judgement that keeps one from allowing their children to play on the freeway or the Toll Road at five o'clock.
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Im ok with that, and MOST CERTAINLY ok with what I put in bold.

I suspected I was reading something into your comments you did not intend, and I was right.

But what about my questions in post 289?
 
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