Faith without works........is Faith.

[Brother Mike]

I agree that if someone has saving faith they will not be vain in saying that they have faith but never exercises that faith. Just as the body without the spirit is an empty vessel and is useless, it can do nothing.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
An empty vessel may make more noise than a full one, as a vain person may, but it is void of substance. The Pharisees made much of what they did in tithes but forgot the more important things of faith......they were vain, empty vessels making much noise.
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I agree.

Are you saying that God didn't know what Abraham would do? If so, I do not agree.
I believe this was a statement of approval.
Rather like the husband who tells his wife he loves her and she knows that he does. Then one day he brings her flowers and says I love you and she responds I know you do, you brought me beautiful flowers.
The action shows what the truth is even if it is already known.

This is a whole other topic foreknowledge vs election. For now I know is in the Hebrew present tense based on Abrahams action.

In another verse God said I know him. He will keep his children in subjection.

If God already knew, then that is Kidron is saying. Faith without the works is good enough. God telling us to redeem our time is certainly not going to waste it by seeing if we will do what we actually believe.

 

[Kidron]

Faith without the works is good enough..

Exactly.
The reason it has to be so, is because Salvation is completely based on what Christ did on the cross.
And nothing else.
This is why all legalistic arguments about "keeping yourself saved" or "enduring to the end" or, "never losing your faith", are moot, because all those arguments are the person trying to prove that WORKS have anything to do with what Christ DID.
And that is why the argument for "works" + the Cross, will always fail.
The scripture says..."While we were YET sinners, Christ died for us".

 

[Kidron]

Faith is an action word meaning there must always be some kind of action following your faith.
Blessings

[No scriptural support for your statements. See forum guidelines.]


K

 

[JLB]

Exactly.
The reason it has to be so, is because Salvation is completely based on what Christ did on the cross.
And nothing else.
This is why all legalistic arguments about "keeping yourself saved" or "enduring to the end" or, "never losing your faith", are moot, because all those arguments are the person trying to prove that WORKS have anything to do with what Christ DID.
And that is why the argument for "works" + the Cross, will always fail.
The scripture says..."While we were YET sinners, Christ died for us".

The reason it is NOT SO, is the scriptures clearly and plainly says -

Faith without works (obedience) is dead.

(Please remember to cite the chapter, verses, and version references when you quote scripture. Obadiah)

WORKS = The effort obedience required.

What you seem to misunderstand is the definition of believing and the definition of faith.

Faith means we have the hope of the reality, not the reality itself.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for...

Hope means in the future, you will obtain the reality, of the very thing you are hoping for.

If you have faith in Christ for healing, and He heals you, then you no long are believe for healing, you have obtained the reality of being healed.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not at all, as he has already accepted you the INSTANT you believed the gospel

And He will continue to accept you as long as you continue to believe.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

The reason it is NOT SO, is the scriptures clearly and plainly says -

Faith without works (obedience) is dead.

JLB

And if it is dead????
You are trying to prove that the original Faith that God accepted on your behalf to INSTANTLY give you the new birth, to seat you in heavenly places, to seal you to the day of redemption......can be undone because you spend 5 days with dead faith?

So tell me...
How long do you have to be in "dead faith" before you are no longer counted worthy by the Blood of Christ and the free gift of righteousness?
is it 20 mins of dead faith?
is it 23 days of dead faith?
is it 2 years and 23 mins of dead faith?
How long are you in "dead faith" before God says......"ok, thats it, off to hell".
and what if after you have dead faith for 5 years, you again believe in the 6th year and go back to church?
are you still lost, Jlb?.......because of those 5 years?
Is that your interesting theology and how you rightly divide the word?
really?
or, do you get a faith redo because your faith is now in operation after those 5 dead years?

 

[Qchan]

The reason it is NOT SO, is the scriptures clearly and plainly says -

Faith without works (obedience) is dead.

WORKS = The effort obedience required.

What you seem to misunderstand is the definition of believing and the definition of faith.

Faith means we have the hope of the reality, not the reality itself.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for...

Hope means in the future, you will obtain the reality, of the very thing you are hoping for.

If you have faith in Christ for healing, and He heals you, then you no long are believe for healing, you have obtained the reality of being healed.


JLB

JLB, what denomination are you?

 

[JLB]

And if it is dead????
You are trying to prove that the original Faith that God accepted on your behalf to INSTANTLY give you the new birth, to seat you in heavenly places, to seal you to the day of redemption......can be undone because you spend 5 days with dead faith?

So tell me...
How long do you have to be in "dead faith" before you are no longer counted worthy by the Blood of Christ and the free gift of righteousness?
is it 20 mins of dead faith?
is it 23 days of dead faith?
is it 2 years and 23 mins of dead faith?
How long are you in "dead faith" before God says......"ok, thats it, off to hell".
and what if after you have dead faith for 5 years, you again believe in the 6th year and go back to church?
are you still lost, Jlb?.......because of those 5 years?
Is that your interesting theology and how you rightly divide the word?
really?
or, do you get a faith redo because your faith is now in operation after those 5 dead years?

It should be easy for you to see that you have to come up with a variety of circumstances, or "what if's"...

Those are your issues to deal with.

I don't have those in my theology.

The faith that obeys, is the faith that saves.

The doctrine you have been impregnated with, tends to need to ask all the questions you are asking, as a means to try and figure out how to live a life of pleasure and sin, and still be saved.

There seems to be a basic breakdown of foundational teaching, amongst believers on these Forums, whereby the elements of salvation of love, and believing and faith and obedience and righteousness, seem to be misunderstood, or completely disregarded as irrelevant.


I hope we can discuss these things in a rational way, that together we all may contend for the faith, that the early Church seemed to have.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

This is a whole other topic foreknowledge vs election.

Absolutely not, that is not what I was referring to at all. It has to do with God's three Omni's and with God knowing everything we think, feel, and what is in the heart. Nothing is hidden from God.
Jer 20:12 , Luke 16:15, Acts 15:8, Heb 4:13

 

[Kidron]

It should be easy for you to see that you have to come up with a variety of circumstances, or "what if's"...

Those are your issues to deal with.

I don't have those in my theology.

The faith that obeys, is the faith that saves.

JLB

Its ok if you cant answer those questions.
I understand why you would not want to ., and so do you.
And also, the "faith that saves" is the faith that obeys the Gospel so that God will justify you. 1Corin 15:3-8 & Romans 3:21-28
Not any other.



K

 

[JLB]

the "faith that saves" is the faith that obeys the Gospel

Amen, I'm glad we can agree on this important aspect.

Repentance toward God, is the key command of the Gospel that all are called to obey.

Those that later turn back to serving the evil one, will not be welcome on the day of Judgement.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB, what denomination are you?

The same denomination as Jesus.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Amen, I'm glad we can agree on this important aspect.

Repentance toward God, is the key command of the Gospel that all are called to obey.

Those that later turn back to serving the evil one, will not be welcome on the day of Judgement.


JLB

Those who turn their back, or have "dead faith", will speak to Jesus about it at the Bema seat. 2 Corin 5:10

Those who never believed will face Rev. 20:11
You are combining them as one., when in fact they are not.

 

[Qchan]

The same denomination as Jesus.

Oh, so you're Pentecostal or Baptist. The phrasing you're using isn't unique, and many non-denominational churches are actually either Pentecostal or Baptist based on their foundational doctrine. Since what you're saying certainly does line up with their thinking, it'll make it easier for me to refute some of your claims.

Baptists have two sects. One that believes in eternal salvation and the other that do not. Those that do not believe in eternal salvation enjoy giving themselves the "non-denomination" trademark. Those same types of people are the ones who tout that if a person doesn't maintain their salvation, they will go to hell. Pentecostals believe in this very same thing. So, what about you? Do you agree with that doctrine?

 

[Kidron]

Oh, so you're Pentecostal or Baptist. The phrasing you're using isn't unique, and many non-denominational churches are actually either Pentecostal or Baptist based on their foundational doctrine.

Im not really hearing any type of autonomous Baptist type of theology in JLB's point of view, and as ive not actually spoken to JLB regarding anything but his POV about losing salvation if you dont work for it, then, its difficult to pinpoint his exact denomination.
He's not going to tell you much, but if i knew what bible he used or if i could hear him speak a few lines about the gifts of the Spirit or confessing sins, then i could tell you what denomination he belongs to., or if not a known denomination, where he's learned his particular take on works for salvation and all the rest.
It is as you said, very typical of the type, yes.

 

[Brother Mike]

Absolutely not, that is not what I was referring to at all. It has to do with God's three Omni's and with God knowing everything we think, feel, and what is in the heart. Nothing is hidden from God.

There is only one Omni in scripture, and if God already knows what Abraham was going to do, that is Foreknowledge doctrine. Action to His faith would not have mattered.

Since Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, and it's the Lord the performs the Word with signs following, then if God already knows we will step out in what we believe, then faith does not need works or corresponding action.

We can do a study on what God knows, how he knows, why the heart of man is important, why God responds to cries, what does God see when he hears someone cry out, why God changes his mind.

we can do that in another thread if you like.

 

[Kidron]

There is only one Omni in scripture, and if God already knows what Abraham was going to do, that is Foreknowledge doctrine. Action to His faith would not have mattered.

Since Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, and it's the Lord the performs the Word with signs following, then if God already knows we will step out in what we believe, then faith does not need works or corresponding action.

You are confusing God knowing a thing, with God causing a thing.
The fact that God knows what you are going to do after you read what i just said, does not mean he caused what you do next.
And the fact of God knowing what Abraham was going to do before he was born, does not mean that Abraham's "faith was counted for righteousness" is not the truth.
And therefore, this faith that God accepted whereby he then instantly justified Abraham,.... had nothing to do with knowing what Abraham's was going to do next.......ever.

 

[Brother Mike]

And the fact of God knowing what Abraham was going to do before he was born, does not mean that Abraham's "faith was counted for righteousness" is not the truth.

And therefore, this faith that God accepted whereby he then instantly justified Abraham,.... had nothing to do with knowing what Abraham's was going to do next.......ever.

Ok, so God knew what Abraham was going to do, to be justified by faith, before Abraham was Born. So God shows up to Abraham to ensure that What God Already knows happens because Abraham really has no choice in the matter since God already knows, but God went and credited Abraham for righteousness, despite God already intervening with something he already knew. God was the one that should have been credited with the righteousness because knowing something before making something is called a plan.

Makes sense to me, thanks for explaining.

yea, I know what Calvinism and Arminianism is.

Both confused and convoluted doctrines of men.

 

[Kidron]

God was the one that should have been credited with the righteousness because knowing something before making something is called a plan.

Makes sense to me, thanks for explaining.

yea, I know what Calvinism and Arminianism is.

Both confused and convoluted doctrines of men.

Well, first of all, God IS credited for the righteousness, as it His and his alone that he is giving to Abraham.
Odd that you dont realize that we of ourselves have no righteousness, as we are sinners.
Your bible says we are "filthy rags" who have "all fallen short".....Romans 3:23
Thats me, thats you.
So, BroMike, This explains why God had to send a pardon in the form of the Righteousness of Christ that he gives us.
This is Salvation, and its free gift.

And, as i already tried to explain to you..
God knowing a thing, does not mean he causes a thing.
And Im Glad you are familiar with Calvan and Jacobus Arminius.
I knew you were very familiar with JA, as your pastor teaches his particular doctrine regarding "losing your salvation".
Thats Classic Jocobus Arminius.
And regarding Calvin, well, ive no interest in his idea that a person is forced to be saved or any of the other 4 "points'.


K

 

[Kidron]

(Post removed. Does not conform to forum guidelines. Obadiah.)