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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Faith without works........is Faith.
- Thread starter Kidron
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Brother Mike
Guest
Deborah13
Member
I gave several scriptures that say God knows what is in our hearts.
Do you have any to show that He doesn't? I'd be interested in seeing those.
I, for one, believe that God knows what is in our heart.
However, what is in our heart, and what we actually do when faced with an extreme situation, such as killing one of our own children, is what I believe the issue is here.
We may have good intentions, but when faced with a life and death situation, some of us may not follow through.
The bible tells us our heart is deceitfully wicked above all things things...
That is why it is the action of obedience that justifies us, and not just what is in our heart, faith alone.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
He was not justified until he did the work of obeying, which was to actually offer Issac.
JLB
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Brother Mike
Guest
That was the point I was trying to make A person may tell God, believe it fully that I will be in church Sunday like you wanted. There is nothing in that persons heart that would stand in the way of doing what they told God they would do.
God says OK, Good, you will stop not obeying me in a simple thing.
Sunday comes, Family stops by they have not seen in years. A surprise visit. Then the person thinks, God knows my heart, He knows I wanted to be in church.
God knows the future, He knows I am going to obey him, but this is a special case, God understand I can't go to church "THIS" Sunday because God would want me to spend it with my family.
I'll tell you exactly what God knows. As long as something more important to you does not come up, then you might be in church. He also knows He can't promote you because You would never be faithful with it.
Blessings.
Deborah13
Member
In context, was Abraham actually justified by his works or by the faith that caused him to believe God so completely and thoroughly that he followed through with what God told him to do?
I have to look at what faith must believe in order to put a person in the position of being justified by the blood of Christ.
We have the example of Abraham who first believed God enough to come out of the world, his country, into the wilderness. In the wilderness he didn't always have faith but God didn't give up on him. Issac, was God showing Abraham that He would do what He promised, building Abraham's faith. Then God gives him the ultimate test of faith. Offering Issac. So what I see is that God lead a man of little faith to a man of great faith. God had chosen him to be the father of many nations and that would take a man of great faith.
James also uses the faith of Rahab. James 2:25 We only know and James only mentions one act of faith that Rahab did. She made a decision to chose the God of Israel in order to save her life and the lives of her family. She believed that He was the one true God. In effect, she did the first step that Abraham made, she came out of her world and into God's Israel. That was enough to justify her, to have right standing with God.
Isn't that what every believer does when they have the faith to believe God about His Son and choose Him over the world.
"Come out of her my people."
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Brother Mike
Guest
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
(Rom 4:19-21)
Real faith does not just say something. Not giving thought to your own body for years, knowing what God said he will perform is works expressed from what you believe.
If Abraham is saying, well, my body is now real old, so is Sara, we will see if God can do this. We are just letting go, and letting God, hoping and praying.
The only reason someone says they are hoping and praying, letting go, and letting God is because something in the natural is weighing on them, and they are giving it consideration. You hear it by the words they say, their actions, you can tell if they are fully persuaded or not.
Power Shut Off:
Fired from my trucking Job recently and the power company wants money in return for power. Well, they came and shut it off. The wife had been bugging me about it all week.
You have a plan to pay the power? Nope, doing what I know, it's all I can do. It will be fine.
God told you what to do about paying the power? I can hear God, and if He has a plan, I am on it. Not heard a thing.
You don't care if your family has no power, do you? I told you, when God tells me something, I will act on it.
I find it hard to believe, God has not said anything to you. It's the mans Job to hear God. I am not thinking about it!!! Take no thought and if God has a plan, I would have heard it!!
(when the power gets shut off)
You have not taken things seriously, we have no power. Has God talked to you now? Ya, He spoke to me. He said I will supply all your needs according to His riches and glory in Christ Jesus. More than enough money and resources there.
That is not a plan, your just quoting scripture!!!! ????????? Women, If God said our needs are met, the power will be back on today.
It was just 45 minutes later this lady comes by we know. Hardly ever see her. She came to see how we were doing, I said come on in. She just talks with us then asked. Is the power on here? I said, Nope, shut it off this morning. She then says, I knew I was suppose to come to visit, I just did not know why. How much you owe to turn it back on?
They want 1,200.00 to turn it on. She then writes a check for the full amount and I go over to the power company and pay them.
The power was off for a total of 4hrs. That was it.
The devil will beat your brains out saying, "If God kept his word, then the power would have never been off."
My faith does not stop, my conversation does not stop, based on what I see!!!!
Because the Lady said she had a strong unction to come over AFTER I told the wife if God said he will supply our needs, the power will be on today. She said it just came on her.
Had I questioned God after the power was shut off. Then what?
The hardest part was not rubbing it in to the wife about her unbelief, and saying I told you so miss laughing Sara. I did not, but kept quite, which was the hardest part of the whole ordeal.
Faith without works is dead, dead, dead.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
(Jas 2:25)
Without ant doubt, it was the work of obedience.
read it for yourself...
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son...
Action speaks louder than words, every time.
JLB
In this case, you showed that you believed by the work of confession.
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:8-10
The bible tells us to do all we know to do, then stand.
Sometimes, as men, it's harder to stay out of god's way, and continue to believe, by confessing what God has promised.
You are the MAN!!!!
Not someone else, brother, YOUR THE MAN!!!
JLB
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Brother Mike
Guest
Well, Amen. As in Abraham's case, Works can also be not considering something. (Confession only)
The airplane your flying in looses an engine and yelling, "Were all going to die!!! Die!!! I tell you!!!"
That would be considering something.
Like the women who's son died. She gets to Elisha and he asks her. How is your Son. She says, It is well. Her Son is laying dead at home, but she says, It Is Well with him.
Deborah13
Member
Ah..but was that before or after he took Hagar and Ishmael was born? I don't remember him consulting God before he took Hagar to produce a son. Abraham grew in faith/knowledge and favor just as Jesus did.
You missed the whole point of my post.
I never said that there was not action by either of them.
One had many actions of faith. One had one action of faith. They were both justified by their faith, believing God, which motivated them to take action. If they had not taken any actions then they would not have had faith/believed.
What one believes is what motivates them to take action. No belief, no action. Now sometimes a person can know that God is telling them to do something but because of a weakness, such as fear, they may not take action. In that case they have missed out on a blessing.
In Rahab's case, she and her family were blessed by being saved from destruction.
Jos 6:25 And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.
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Brother Mike
Guest
(Post removed, Irrelevant and off topic. Obadiah)
Last edited by a moderator:
Jethro Bodine
Member
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? (James 2:21 NASB)
To see that James is not saying that works of righteousness themselves justify (which would be in complete and utter contradiction to Paul) we must know that 'justify' means, both, to be made righteous, and to be shown to be righteous.
When we believe God's word about the promise of a Son we are justified in regard to being made righteous before God. When that belief in God's word is seen in what we do we are justified in regard to showing ourselves to be righteous.
You must be justified both ways to be saved because the faith that can't be seen in what it does is the faith that can not solicit a declaration of right standing with God. Their disobedience showing that they don't really believe God's word about the Son.
"I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB emphasis mine)
To see that James is not saying that works of righteousness themselves justify (which would be in complete and utter contradiction to Paul) we must know that 'justify' means, both, to be made righteous, and to be shown to be righteous.
When we believe God's word about the promise of a Son we are justified in regard to being made righteous before God. When that belief in God's word is seen in what we do we are justified in regard to showing ourselves to be righteous.
You must be justified both ways to be saved because the faith that can't be seen in what it does is the faith that can not solicit a declaration of right standing with God. Their disobedience showing that they don't really believe God's word about the Son.
"I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB emphasis mine)
To this I would like to add...
A "righteous" work is one that is inspired and led by the Spirit.
Which is another way of saying a work of obedience.
A dead work, is a work that comes from the flesh, eg: cookies vs crack house.
In others words, Abraham didn't follow some religious rules, but simply obeyed what God told him to do.
Those who practice righteousness are righteous.
JLB
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Brother Mike
Guest
Your on to something here. What if we remove "Works of righteousness" and just add "Works" ? Just to keep the religious nuts happy, why don't we change "Works" to "Action"?
Let's make something clear. Without some work (Action) being displayed caused by a belief, you won't be saved. Faith alone is dead. We are not talking about works (actions) we are talking about ONE Action.
You can sit in the pew week after week, and say Jesus is my Lord, yes. If you never go up though when they do the alter call thinking, I know in my heart I believe Jesus is Lord, and I don't want my neighbors and others to think I was not saved. You can die, in your sin. Why? Jesus said, you confess me before men, I'll confess you before my Father. If he is not Lord enough over what you think others think, then He is not Lord.
You can tell me all day long you don't believe in monsters under the bed, but if you are constantly looking under your bed just in case. Then what you tell me is in vain.
I was pastor at a church, had a nice house we were renting at a awesome price, it looked like I was starting my major calling of God by being a Pastor and my side of the church was growing every week. Things were great, and God used me to get miracles in the lives of people. Amazing things where happening for me, and those around me.
However.............................. The Church had a night service, with a different teacher. The church use to only be a night service church, until the owner and head Pastor asked me to start a day service. My people would also go to night service also and I could not tell them not to go. It just caused lots of problems. They were told they could loose their Salvation, God does not always heal, just far different than what I was telling them.
to make it worse, the Head Pastor asked me to speak at the night service at times. Them folks hated me.
To make it even more worse. My Work the Lord started, was bringing a lot more money into the church than what the night side gave. In fact, the bills were getting paid off my services. I never even taught tithing or giving, people just wanted to give. The money issue and envy of the night side who helped start the church in the first place became to much.
I went to God, and said I need options. I told the Lord.
1) I could step down as pastor................ something I did not want to do at all, but still presented it to God as a show of Humbleness.
2) Talk to the head Pastor, see about using a different building from Night service.
3) Just teach day and night services exclusively and who leaves, leaves.
I told the Lord, whatever he wanted to do, I'll do it. I told him I know division is wrong, it needs fixed.
He said real clear......... "MOVE TO BRANSON"
Branson was never a thought, I did not even know where that was but some town in MO. I said what? I had no money to move, Nice place to live, a pastor. Move to Branson?
I stopped praying, I said Lord, your going to have to tell me that again later. That don't make sense. So the next day, I went to pray and the Lord said, "I already told you, Move to Branson, there is much you have to learn."
I looked it up on the map, about a 8 hour drive. I then went and told the wife we were moving. We are going to Branson. We knew Keith Moore was in Branson, but that was some guy I watched online.
We packed, and left with under 200.00 and no idea where we were going to stay, or what was going to happen once we got there.
Thank God we obeyed.
Now if Jesus is really Lord, you do what he says do. I left everything, family, My Pastor position, Job, everything.
Many believers decided to move for a new Job, to live by family and never ask the Lord one time if that is what they should be doing. Jesus is not Lord. We don't leave anywhere until told to leave. Abraham did not say, I am going on a journey to a far country Lord. No, The Lord told him to go first.
Wow, that's an advanced subject. Many are dead today by their own Works to prove their faith. Like taking off your glasses to prove to God you believe you have received healing for your eyes and run your car into a tree. Did the Lord ask you to take off your glasses? Did the Lord tell you to preach with rattlesnakes and not take your child to the hospital?
Works are based on faith taking action by something you have heard. Not something you make up.
blessings.
LovethroughDove
Member
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord know those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
Like I posted SO long ago. You can't say you have faith, and not "do" something. Turn away from wickedness
Like I posted SO long ago. You can't say you have faith, and not "do" something. Turn away from wickedness
LovethroughDove
Member
I wasn't addressing anyone particular, just posting faith and doing are the same thing..................
