Faith without works........is Faith.

[A New Dawn]

If only OSAS would provide the verse that says that.

John 6 makes it pretty clear that those who the Father has given to Christ will be raised up at the last day, of Christ shall lose none of them.

I just want to say that you can't lump those who believe in eternal security all together under the epithet of "OSAS". For one, not all who believe it agree with Free Grace's theology, and secondly, it would be nice if you referred to people by their name instead of by calling them a name.

 

[FreeGrace]

Are you seriously trying to argue that grace is not a gift?

Are you seriously claiming that the Bible describes or defines grace as a gift? Where would that be?

"7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace..." (Ephesians 1:7 NASB)" (Ephesians 1: NASB)

No mention of 'gift' here. So…where?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you seriously claiming that the Bible describes or defines grace as a gift? Where would that be?

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8 NASB)

(You know where his doctrine's going next, right folks?)

No mention of 'gift' here. So…where?

Then explain to us what we all did to earn our redemption/ forgiveness of sins. Then you will have convinced everybody that it is not a free gift of God's grace.

What did you do to earn your redemption, FreeGrace?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John 6 makes it pretty clear that those who the Father has given to Christ will be raised up at the last day, of Christ shall lose none of them.

Right. He won't lose any of them. They are allowed to walk away on their own. Hebrews 10:26-39 NASB warns obedient, fruitful, hard working, persevering, sanctified believers to not trample on the blood of Christ, thus losing the benefit of that blood.

Christ is hardly a buffoon like Eli and his sons were that somehow he has made a mistake, or became unclean, so as not to have performed his ministry perfectly and to God's complete and total satisfaction in heaven for us. So, Christ is not the one that fails--humans do. They fail in their faith, just as Jesus spoke about in Luke 8:13 NASB.

I just want to say that you can't lump those who believe in eternal security all together under the epithet of "OSAS". For one, not all who believe it agree with Free Grace's theology, and secondly, it would be nice if you referred to people by their name instead of by calling them a name.

Oh, I agree totally. I know full well how varied the OSAS argument is. I know that there are sensible OSASer's who don't go so far as to say a believer can deny Christ altogether and still be saved.

And the rules of the forum require us to address doctrine(s), not people.

 

[FreeGrace]

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8 NASB)

The word "it" in the phrase "it is the gift of God" refers back to "you have been saved". So "it" refers directly to salvation. We are saved by grace, but it is our salvation that is the gift. We know that because Paul also defined both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Both are intimately connected with salvation. So Eph 2:8 does not support your theory.

Then explain to us what we all did to earn our redemption/ forgiveness of sins.

No one earns forgiveness of sins. It is based on faith in Christ, as I have already shown in Acts 10:43. Faith is a non-meritorious action.

Then you will have convinced everybody that it is not a free gift of God's grace.

Having one's sins forgiveness is not salvation. It comes with salvation. Your theory has not been defended at all.

What did you do to earn your redemption, FreeGrace?

Badgering violates forum rules. I've already answered that repeatedly.

Where is any evidence for your theory? It's not been provided. What has been provided hasn't been evidence for your theory.

We know what Paul meant by 'gift' in Rom 11:29 because he defined the word for us: spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life. It's these gifts of God that are irrevocable.

Since he didn't define any other things as gifts, it is just a huge leaping assumption to make up something else as to what he was referring to in Rom 11:29.

There is no need to assume anything. He gave us his definition of "God's gifts" before he said they were irrevocable: spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life are irrevocable gifts of God.

Anything and everything else contrary to this is merely opinion, without evidence or merit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Right. He won't lose any of them. They are allowed to walk away on their own.

The problem with this argument is that there is no verse that tells that anyone can "walk away from salvation". That is assumed from some verses, but there is nothing that clearly states such a view.

The prodigal SON walked away from his father, he was STILL a SON to the father. And the father continued to look for his SON to return while his SON was in a "far country". So there is no evidence for your theory.

So, just as the prodigal SON walked away from his father, and he was still his SON, so also the child of God who walks away from his Father is still His SON.

Hebrews 10:26-39 NASB warns obedient, fruitful, hard working, persevering, sanctified believers to not trample on the blood of Christ, thus losing the benefit of that blood.

The benefit is loss of the cleansing of daily sins for fellowship, which is also taught in 1 Jn 1.

I know full well how varied the OSAS argument is. I know that there are sensible OSASer's who don't go so far as to say a believer can deny Christ altogether and still be saved.

So, again, where is the verse that actually tells us that any believer who denies Christ will lose their salvation? I keep waiting for such a verse. Is there one? If not, why believe such a claim?

 

[TheBarrd]

May I humbly suggest that a person who thinks Jesus would leave him may not truly know Him?
Someone who thinks he can lose his salvation maybe doesn't understand what salvation is....

 

[FreeGrace]

Right. He won't lose any of them. They are allowed to walk away on their own.

It just occurred to me that these 2 statements are contradictory. If they walk away, He did lose them.

Apply this to a parent's child. If the parent took their child for a walk and comes home empty handed, could he really say "I didn't lose my child; he just walked away." Would anyone take that parent seriously?

If Jesus lets anyone walk away, He does lose them.

Here's the big difference. Walking away from one's faith doesn't mean they walk away from Jesus. Regardless of their view, He holds onto them, even though they may leave the faith. I know that seems impossible, but the Bible is clear about our salvation. Jesus holds our salvation. It's not in our hands. That's grace just as much as Jesus saving us is.

 

[WIP]

It just occurred to me that these 2 statements are contradictory. If they walk away, He did lose them.

Apply this to a parent's child. If the parent took their child for a walk and comes home empty handed, could he really say "I didn't lose my child; he just walked away." Would anyone take that parent seriously?

If Jesus lets anyone walk away, He does lose them.

Here's the big difference. Walking away from one's faith doesn't mean they walk away from Jesus. Regardless of their view, He holds onto them, even though they may leave the faith. I know that seems impossible, but the Bible is clear about our salvation. Jesus holds our salvation. It's not in our hands. That's grace just as much as Jesus saving us is.

I'm not putting this out there to post a counter point but to help me understand your views more. How do you reconcile this with 1 John 3:4-9 since there isn't a person alive that does not sin?

 

[TheBarrd]

I'm not putting this out there to post a counter point but to help me understand your views more. How do you reconcile this with 1 John 3:4-9 since there isn't a person alive that does not sin?

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[MarkT]

I don't understand your question. We are saved by grace. Not by any behavior. Therefore, we are kept by that same grace. We can't lose our salvation by any behavior. And, Paul defined what he meant by gift before he penned that God's gifts are irrevocable. So eternal life, one of the gifts define by Paul in 6:23, is irrevocable. Undeniable.

Didn't Jesus say, 'For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you? Mt. 6:14 and 'if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Mt. 6:15

 

[MarkT]

What does it mean if you say you believe in him, but you don't keep his commandments? Or if you say you believe, but his word is not in you?

Sure the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. God called the Israelites his people. Does that mean he didn't destroy them in the desert when they went after false gods? Jude 1:5 God gave them the prophets. Does that mean they did not stone the prophets?

So the LORD led them out of captivity. He gave them prophets; So how did they repay him? Jeremiah 18:15

First you have to believe God exists, and you have to believe in eternal life, prophets and prophecy and so on. Prophecy is a gift. So if you believe what is true, not what is not true, then you have passed from death to life as Jesus said, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life'. John 5:24

But what if a man falls into unbelief? Jesus said salt that has lost its saltness is thrown out Mt. 5:13, Mrk. 9:50 and 'he is cast forth as a branch and withers. Branches are gathered and burned. John 15:6

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm not putting this out there to post a counter point but to help me understand your views more. How do you reconcile this with 1 John 3:4-9 since there isn't a person alive that does not sin?

I believe that 1 Jn 3:9 is about the fact that we cannot sin from our new nature. Here is the verse:
"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

At first blush, it would seem to teach that those who are born again cannot sin. But we know from ch 1 that there isn't anyone who doesn't sin. 1:8 says "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

So, it cannot mean that the regenerated cannot sin. The phrase "His seed abides in him" must refer to our new nature, from which we get the terms "born again, regenerated, new birth". So John seems to be saying that we cannot sin from our new nature.

And that agrees exactly with Paul's teaching from Romans 6 and 7. He speaks of the spiritual struggle within each believer. iow, our sinful nature battles with our new nature.

When the believer is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) he/she is functioning from the new nature and cannot sin.

However, when the believer is grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, he/she is functioning from the sinful nature and is sinning.

 

[FreeGrace]

Didn't Jesus say, 'For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you? Mt. 6:14 and 'if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Mt. 6:15

Yes He did. Not following your point here.

 

[FreeGrace]

What does it mean if you say you believe in him, but you don't keep his commandments? Or if you say you believe, but his word is not in you?

The key in understanding Scripture is what one believes, not what one says. If we keep the "says" out of it, we can more easily answer the questions.

So, if one believes in Jesus Christ for eternal life, they are saved. No argument. But, if the believer doesn't keep His commandments? He is a disobedient believer. There are many believers who haven't grown up in their salvation (no spiritual growth), so it should be obvious that God's Word isn't in them.

God's Word is only in those who study it and take it regularly. Many don't, unfortunately.

Sure the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Ccontextually, Paul had already described and defined what he meant by God's gifts before he wrote Rom 11:29. So we know what he meant in that verse by considering what he described/defined as God's gifts:
1:11 is about spiritual gifts, which are irrevocable.
3:24, 5:15,16,17 is about justification, which is irrevocable.
6:23 is about eternal life, which is irrevocable.

And, there are no verses that teach that any of these are revocable.

God called the Israelites his people. Does that mean he didn't destroy them in the desert when they went after false gods?

Yes, God called the Israelites His people. And that calling is irrevocable. And, yes, He destroyed the entire first generation of the Exodus except 2; Joshua and Caleb. Even Moses didn't make it to the promised land. Yet, that in no way revoked God's calling the Israelites His people.

Jude 1:5 God gave them the prophets. Does that mean they did not stone the prophets?

I don't understand how this question relates to the statement before it.

So the LORD led them out of captivity. He gave them prophets; So how did they repay him? Jeremiah 18:15

OK. And the point?

First you have to believe God exists, and you have to believe in eternal life, prophets and prophecy and so on. Prophecy is a gift. So if you believe what is true, not what is not true, then you have passed from death to life as Jesus said, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life'. John 5:24

I'm not going to argue that prophecy is a gift, but where does the Bible call it that?

But what if a man falls into unbelief?

Since the gift of God is eternal life, and God's gifts are irrevocable, the apostate is possesses eternal life.

Jesus said salt that has lost its saltness is thrown out Mt. 5:13, Mrk. 9:50 and 'he is cast forth as a branch and withers. Branches are gathered and burned. John 15:6

Clearly, Jesus isn't speaking literally here, but figuratively. He used a metaphor reflecting the agricultural economy of the day. When branches aren't productive, they are unusable and cast off. There is no reason to assume this means loss of salvation, especially since we know that eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

Casting off a branch in figurative language doesn't "trump" Paul's teaching about God's gifts being irrevocable.

Jesus was teaching that those who aren't productive will not be used by God. In Jesus' day, the general consensus by the Jews was that since they were His chosen people, He was using them for His purposes. It was a shock to hear that God would cast them aside, as we see He did for the entire people, and turned to the Gentiles. Remember that Jesus was speaking to very orthodox Jews. For them to think that God would cast them off and use Gentiles, whom they referred to as 'dogs', was quite shocking to them.

So, burning branches and throwing out unusable salt has nothing to do with salvation, but everything to do with being useful or unusable to God. The Jews prided themselves on their election and couldn't imagine that God would ever cast them off and use Gentiles for anything.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

May I humbly suggest that a person who thinks Jesus would leave him may not truly know Him?
Someone who thinks he can lose his salvation maybe doesn't understand what salvation is....

And may I suggest that the person who thinks they can not lose their salvation does not truly understand how and why a person is saved:

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith..." (Ephesians 2:8 NASB)

You did not get saved by 'nothing', as surely as you did not get saved by your works. You got saved by trusting in Christ. You can not stop trusting in Christ and still be saved. Trust in Christ is how a person is saved. Lose that trust and you lose the conduit through which the grace and power of God keeps us for salvation (1 Peter 1:5 NASB).

Faith is the assurance of salvation...

"1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for..." (Hebrews 11:1 NASB)

Yet some say 'not having faith' is the assurance of salvation. That's not what the passage says. You must have faith to have the assurance of salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He used a metaphor reflecting the agricultural economy of the day. When branches aren't productive, they are unusable and cast off. There is no reason to assume this means loss of salvation, especially since we know that eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.

(Ah, yes, the famous circular reasoning of the OSAS argument--use what your're trying to prove or disprove to answer what your're trying to prove and disprove.)

But anyway, the burning of the unfruitful tares/branches/etc. is most certainly a salvation issue. The place they go to is the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth of the damned:

40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:40-43 NASB capitals in original).

Have ears to hear, folks. OSAS is a stumbling block that will cause those who stumble according to not be saved, but cast into the fire where all unbelievers and hypocrites will go:

46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:46 NASB)

"30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30 NASB)

"Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41 NASB)

"46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46 NASB)

7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." (Hebrews 6:7-8 NASB)

These are your reasons why branches being burned is most definitely a salvation issue. People, don't be deceived and take comfort in the doctrine that dead, fruitless faith will also save you from the fires of damnation. Won't happen.

 

[iLOVE]

You cannot serve the Living God unless you are purge from dead works. What are dead works? It is depending on your own self efforts so you can deserve favor from God. It is Gods desire that we depend totally on the unmerited favor of Lord Jesus Christ and not our performance.

Performance examples; Have I prayed enough this week. Have I fasted enough this week. Have I been nice enough this week. Have I been good enough this week, ect.

When you operate like this you are depending on your performance to deserve it. Instead we must depend on Lord Jesus Christ finish works and His unmerited favor.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You cannot serve the Living God unless you are purge from dead works. What are dead works? It is depending on your own self efforts so you can deserve favor from God.

Of course it's wrong to depend on your works to gain salvation favor with God. But I'm pretty sure adultery, lying, cheating, stealing, etc. are what are dead works:

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death." (Romans 7:5 NASB)

Those things, adultery, lying, etc. are the fruits--the dead works--of the sinful nature, just as love, kindness, self-control, etc. are the fruits of the new nature.

It is Gods desire that we depend totally on the unmerited favor of Lord Jesus Christ and not our performance.

Performance examples; Have I prayed enough this week. Have I fasted enough this week. Have I been nice enough this week. Have I been good enough this week, ect.

When you operate like this you are depending on your performance to deserve it. Instead we must depend on Lord Jesus Christ finish works and His unmerited favor.

Of course this is true, but somehow this has come to be understood that if you try to do anything righteous you are guilty of trying to earn your own salvation. Thus we have a church full of people who can honestly be characterized as 'do nothings' because as they say 'salvation is so utterly not about what I do, so it doesn't matter, and if I do purposely do anything good I'd be trying to earn my own salvation; good has to just kind of happen by itself in me, but it's okay if it doesn't happen.'

Surely purposely doing right things because you have faith in Christ does not equate to you trying to earn your salvation. The truth is you HAVE to have the fruit of faith for that faith to be the faith that can save you. The (so-called) faith that is not fruitful is not the faith that saves from damnation. The scriptures are abundantly clear about this.

 

[Obadiah]

Not necessarily directed at any one poster in particular, but there have already been warnings by multiple staff placed in this thread to follow the rules here. For some reason some people are reluctant to back their good points with scripture, even though in many cases that would have been very easy to do. This seems to be the most common violation and I continue to fail to understand why some people don't want to take advantage of the very word of God to support what they say! Do they honestly believe their own words carry more weight than the words of God Himself?

At any rate, this will be the final warning in this thread to follow the forum guidelines and the Terms of Service. Sadly, further violations will result in actions being taken, up to and including closing this thread if needed. As was requested earlier, read the Terms of Service posted at this hyperlink, and read the guidelines for this particular forum quoted below and posted at this hyperlink then follow them. To be fair, this will apply to EVERYONE EQUALLY and will have nothing to do with whether or not a particular moderator agrees or disagrees with the position taken in the post. Thank you.

In addition to the general ToS, these special guidelines apply to this forum in particular:

"Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Bible. Apologetics goes hand in hand with theology as it is the branch of Christian theology which attempts to give a rational defense of the Christian faith. That makes the Apologetics and Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions.

With this in mind, the following guidelines should be followed.

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