Bible Study Familiar Spirits

[ezrider]

Who are you to judge whether I have a relationship with Christ. Why do you not believe John 14:6; Romans 8:34? Jesus said He is our mediator before the Father, not our medium.

Under what criteria have I judged whether you have a relationship with Christ or not? I responded to your comment and asked you a question; Do you have a relationship with the Father? This you did not answer, but instead doubled down on your continued need for a mediator. I have not judged you, your own words tell the tale.

 

[K2CHRIST]

None of those verses say God does not use evil. He creates it(Isaiah 45:7) and uses it (1 Samuel 16:14). Murder carries a death sentence(Leviticus 24:17) and haughty eyes are an abomination(Proverbs 6: 16-19). God has worked through and raised up people who had a lust for killing and were extremely arrogant (Habakkuk 1:5-11). God sent a lying spirit to do a false prophecy(1 Kings 22:22). False prophecy falls in the category of divination(Jeremiah 14:14), which is entirely witchcraft.


This isn't contested. The part added on is. There is nothing in this quote of the definition that describes them as having to obey anyone or taking the form of an animal or human or anything like that. You won't find that anywhere but lore and other popular stories.

I really liked your posts Northman. Not just this one but the others on this thread also.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I like the public (and it is important to remember that is it public) Christian forum because I learn from coming to the site, which should be of not surprise, after all this section is "Biblical Growth and Study". When I come here, it is usually because the Lord asks me to, and that is not surprising either, because He is the Teacher. So I come, post, read, consider, and talk to my Lord about what I read. Then He talks to me and reasons with me.

I have my opinions, my beliefs, and my thoughts, but I come here to have them adjusted. That is what learning is about. And this "Biblical Growth and Study" section is particularly good because " All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for training in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16). So a Scripture can be used to prove me wrong, and reproof is valuable to me. God reproves those He loves (Rev 3:20) I want the reproof; that's what's good for me.

So I want to take the Scriptures and what I see written to the Lord and reason with Him. He, being the One who inspired the Scriptures has to match up with the Scriptures, and my Lord does seem to do that. If He doesn't then I need to start checking the spirit, don't I?

God put before us good and evil. The Bible explains that to us. It also explains that He is King of kings. Obviously not all listen to Him, but He has the authority, power, and foreknowledge to be able to even us what is meant for evil for good.

In this particular thread, we see a very stubborn king who is not willing to do what the Lord has told him. So the Lord leaves him, which will cause him to loose his next battle. King Saul wants to go out to battle again, and may need to, so he is seeking the Lord his God for a word about winning the battle, which the king should realize isn't going to happen without the Lord, and it appears king Saul does realize that because he is willing to do anything (except repent, humble himself, and make up with the Lord) to get that word of a winning battle. So he goes to a medium hoping she can bring up Samuel who had been giving him winning words from the Lord. The king knows better, because he himself had mediums outlawed, but he goes anyway.

You would expect that the medium would only hook the king up with a lying false spirit pretending to be Samuel. Yet Samuel shows up with a truthful explanation accurate prophecy. We know it is Samuel because the Bible says it is Samuel, and if we didn't know it, the Bible is good for reproof, is inspired by God and is good to reprove us if we are willing to accept that reproof. If we are stubborn, we might not want to except that, but that is our problem and not a problem with the Bible.

But, we say to ourselves, why would God allow Samuel then? God wouldn't use a medium would He? You wouldn't think so, but Samuel showed up, and it clearly says Samuel. Now we have something to talk to the Lord about, or perhaps we are not willing to change, which is pretty much exactly what this story of king Saul is about.

What I learned is that God is greater, more loving, and more incredible than I think, and He wants people to understand this! Though king Saul had done so many things wrong, even seeking out a medium which he of all people should have known not to do. He certainly knew that he had put his very soul at risk.

God is love, or have we forgot that. And it is written that if you seek the Lord with all your soul you will find Him. So Samuel shows up, surprising the medium, and giving king Saul a warning, which is a loving thing to do, done by a God that is all powerful. Also, God needed to do it because He has said that if you seek Him will all your soul. Still, from my conversations with My Lord, it was done because of His love for Saul, and the Israelite army too.

The devil lies, but God gives accurate prophecy to those willing to listen and be willing to be reproved. The prophecy we read and should be getting is usually about reproof, isn't it. Certainly God encourages too, but bad things are going to happen if we don't listen, and we don't listen like we should. We have our opinions and/ or beliefs, and not willing to let them go and except the reproof available to us.

It is written that Samuel said. Why should the devil get credit for warning king Saul? Why should we give the impression that God didn't care enough to give Saul and the army one last warning?. Why should we think that God can't crash in on the work of the devil anytime He wants? Why should we give the impression that God is not all powerful, loving, and simply is willing to not give someone a last warning. Why do we not present God as a caring, loving, and considerate God, not willing that any should perish?

This is a public forum, and I want the public to know that God does care, did care, and is always (even when we are messing up everything) trying to get us to repent and turn back to Him. And if someone does want to listen to me telling them to listen to Him, I am still going to put the message out there to those who might. That is what this forum is about. It is not about sticking to our opinion and beleif but about seeking and finding a loving all powerful God who wants us to present Him correctly to others.

 

[Northman]

I really liked your posts Northman. Not just this one but the others on this thread also.

The concept and reality of God using/working through evil, for our benefit(Romans 8:28), is with no doubt the "hardest saying"(John 6:60) that I've had to come to terms with.

There is far too much popular Christian mysticism out there. People do more damage than they realize when they take part in spreading it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am getting a little tired of these attacks on what I believe by how I study and it needs to stop, PLEASE. If you do not agree so be it. I don't need to hear that I have no relationship with the Lord or that I am not listening to Him.

This is a Bible study, not a I'm right your wrong debate. By the replies that have been made over and over again we need to examine ourselves and see in what we are saying is pleasing to the Lord. I'm not talking about what we believe, but the darts that are being thrown against me.

Yes, I am taking this personally, but yet my spirit is not broken and I love all of you dearly as my brothers in Christ. I will ask the moderator to now close this thread as I have said all I can in what I believe to be truth.

God bless all of you and thank you for your input.

 

[K2CHRIST]

When I was talking to the Lord on this He was using a phrase I sometime hear Him use when some are preaching, and it goes "They say what is right about me." I find it curious that He really likes it when people say what is right about Him. I don't believe people usually realize when they are saying what is right about Him or not. The one example I can think of is in Job 42:7..."My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.

People often get that wrong idea of the Lord and especially in the Old Testament. Our wonderful and caring Lord Jesus Christ was on the throne then too! Ps 2:6 But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.

If it was not Samuel, then Satan had control of the situation, not God. If it was not Samuel, then Satan is giving accurate prophecy and is not lying. If it was Satan, then Satan had warned king Saul and was the one getting onto the king for not obeying God.

We look at the situation and seemingly logically figure that God would not approve anyone going to a witch, which is correct. So we say that God would never use evil, which is not true, as Northman pointed out. God said He has put before us good and evil, so He has a purpose. He used the fact of king Saul going to the witch to point out to Saul how he has fallen. Saul had to know he needed to repent.

The Lord wishes that none should perish, because He loves us, and so He keeps working till the end to get people to repent and turn back to Him. That is why it was Samuel and not an evil spirit. God crashed their party, so to speak, and deserves the glory and credit for trying to warn king Saul and the Israelite army. So if we give credit to Satan and the dark forces of this world, then we have not said what is right about the Lord. I can certainly understand how that happened, but we need to consider this and possibly apologize to the Lord for not always getting it right. We just need to be willing to learn, which king Saul was not. He had his pride.

I learned a lot from this thread. Going in, I had read the passage and I believed that it was Samuel that had spoken, but I had not known why. IT really didn't make sense to me why God had used Samuel. At that time I believed it was Samuel because the Bible said it was Samuel, but lacked the understanding I wrote above. So I appreciate the forum, and even the author of the OP, for helping me learn. Of course the real thanks goes to my Lord, who for me helped explain and show me His love for humanity. The real point of the passages in 1 Samuel is His love for us and how He keeps working to the end to turn us back to Him, and Satan is not going to stop that.

 

[stovebolts]

Under what criteria have I judged whether you have a relationship with Christ or not? I responded to your comment and asked you a question; Do you have a relationship with the Father? This you did not answer, but instead doubled down on your continued need for a mediator. I have not judged you, your own words tell the tale.

Alright, I've read a few pages and this type of discussions go nowhere. Please refrain from this tone of discussion.

 

[for_his_glory]

Red parenthesis are added by me. These verses that stand out to me that makes me believe it was not actually Samuel, but that of the familar spirit that took on the form of Samuel and used his voice, even though scripture says "Samuel said" are:

1 Samuel 15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, 11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night. 12 And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, (some version say he set himself up a monument) and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. (Read also from vs 13-31)

God was sorry He made Saul king over Israel as Saul did so much evil in the eyes of the Lord as he turned from God concerning His commands over Amalek. Saul even set up a monument for himself that others could worship him for his victory over Amalek. When Samuel confronted Saul about the animals that were spared Saul blamed it on those who fought with him and saying they were for the sacrifice. Samuel then told Saul that it is more important to obey the voice of the Lord for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. Saul admitted he had sinned, but never asked God to forgive him, but only ask Samuel to forgive him and pardon his sin. Samuel turned back with Saul to worship the Lord, but yet Saul's worship only fell on deaf ears of the Lord as Saul never repented and turned back to God.

1 Samuel 28:5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

vs. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? (A question is asked by Saul) And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? (Another question is asked by Saul) And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

If God would not even answer Saul by prophets then how could it actually be Samuel. Saul never looked at what came up, but only asked what this medium/witch saw and what form is he of. This leads me to believe Saul never looked, but only stooped with his face to the ground and bowed himself after hearing the voice that spoke to him.

1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; 14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

God already knew Saul's heart that it was hardened as he turned away from Him. God slew him because of his transgression and seeking out the medium/witch who had a familar spirit as Saul became an enemy against God.

 

[Northman]

1 Samuel 28:5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

I think you are attaching something to this scripture that isn't there, mainly the idea that this passage means that God would never communicate with Saul again. That isn't what it says. Read in context, Saul had a problem, the Philistine army was seen and he freaked out and wanted to know what to do. He got no answer, just like it says.

If God would not even answer Saul by prophets then how could it actually be Samuel.

Samuel didn't give him an answer here either. Saul was given no solution for his problem. He was given prophetic judgement though, of which none was false.

 

[ezra]

for sale one slight used dead horse beat in discussion in a forum seriously this is going no place

 

[Northman]

for sale one slight used dead horse beat in discussion in a forum seriously this is going no place

You sure? I'm pretty positive at least the concepts of God not working through what he considers an abomination and the misunderstanding of a prophecy being repeated have been cleared up. I don't think K2CHRIST's relay of the heart of the Lord on the extent of His mercy has gone unheard either.

 

[K2CHRIST]

There are times when I have trouble hearing the Lord and getting a response from Him. From my conversations with other Christian it seems that everyone I talk to understands this and experiences the same thing. It does mean that I am never going to be able to hear from Him.

There usually is a reason for those times, but it is not always easy to understand what the reason is. Sometimes it is a problem with my faith. That is, I sometimes find out that He was trying to get me the answer but I could believe for it. Other times I have found out that it is my pride. That is, I think I am right for doing something and I am unwilling to consider that I might be wrong, so I can't pick up the Lord either because I am not willing to listen to Him tell me I am wrong or that He is unwilling to correct me. He might even rightly be angry with me for my pride. There are times when I am just not paying enough attention or not seeking Him with all my soul. Often I get to busy wondering off on my own way that I just forget to being seeking Him. And there might be other reason, but none of those reason mean that He will never talk to me.

So from my personal experience with the Lord, and through my relationship with the Lord I don't the Bible to mean that God will not ever talk to someone just because He didn't once talk to them. And the Bible has verses that explain this.

Deut 30:8 And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.

Is 30:20 Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher. Your ears wills hear a word behind you

We often become stubborn and don't listen, so God turns us over to the stubbornness of our heart, but we need to understand that His heart is for us to listen to Him! So He will, if we repent of our ways and truly turn back to Him, talk to us again, because of His love for us. And this is what you see with the story of king Saul.

Ps 81:11 But My people did not listen to My voice And Israel did not obey Me. So I gave then over to the stubbornness of their own heart, To walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies.

That is the story sad story of king Saul and the Israel army. God didn't subdue their enemies, but He always loved them and was always reaching out to them. Yeah, they didn't hear from the Lord because of the stubbornness of their own pride. And that was not just king Saul, but Israel also or why else did the entire army feel defeat. So all those in Israel had trouble getting a word on the upcoming battle. Have we considered that perhaps Samuel at that time was the only one still under the grace of God?

There is still lots to learn, despite what some might think.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think you are attaching something to this scripture that isn't there, mainly the idea that this passage means that God would never communicate with Saul again. That isn't what it says. Read in context, Saul had a problem, the Philistine army was seen and he freaked out and wanted to know what to do. He got no answer, just like it says.


Samuel didn't give him an answer here either. Saul was given no solution for his problem. He was given prophetic judgement though, of which none was false.

Let's start at 1 Samuel 28:15-19 where the conversation started. The form of Samuel asked why Saul wanted him brought up. Saul said because he was sore distressed because the Philistines were making war against him and God was departed from him and and would not answer him by any means, even by a prophet. Saul called upon this medium/witch with a familar spirit in hopes that she could actually bring up Samuel as this is why he wanted Samuel called up so he could tell Saul what to do.

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? Two clues here as one is God departed (rejected) from Saul and that Saul became an enemy to God. This familar spirit is asking Saul why are you asking me what to do. Vs. 17 and 18 this familar spirit tells Saul that of what Samuel already spoke to him in 1 Samuel 15:10-28.

In vs. 19 of 1 Samuel 28 this familar spirit that has taken on the form of an old man covered with a mantle being believed to actually be Samuel, as Saul never looked at it, but only asked what it looked like and what form it was, vs. 13, 14. This familar spirit predicted the fate of Saul now being an enemy of God that he and his sons would die tomorrow in battle and that Saul and his sons would be with him that day.

Meaning because of Saul's transgressions against the Lord and His word and asking counsel of one that had a familar spirit that Saul will also be cast into the lake of fire on judgement day as it was God that slew Saul by his own sword that he fell on, 1 Chronicles 10.

 

[Northman]

Let's start at 1 Samuel 28:15-19 where the conversation started. The form of Samuel asked why Saul wanted him brought up. Saul said because he was sore distressed because the Philistines were making war against him and God was departed from him and and would not answer him by any means, even by a prophet. Saul called upon this medium/witch with a familar spirit in hopes that she could actually bring up Samuel as this is why he wanted Samuel called up so he could tell Saul what to do.

This is correct, we do not disagree. The prophets he asked didn't have an answer for him, but they did talk to him. They would have had to tell him that they had no answer from God for him, much like the spirit of Samuel did.

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? Two clues here as one is God departed (rejected) from Saul and that Saul became an enemy to God. This familar spirit is asking Saul why are you asking me what to do. Vs. 17 and 18 this familar spirit tells Saul that of what Samuel already spoke to him in 1 Samuel 15:10-28.

I am a bit confused here. What do you think these clues mean? Being an enemy of God does not void communication from Him. God communicated with His enemies in Egypt and was to do it again in Babylon. Samuel reminded Saul about what he said before, when he relayed the judgement about the consequences of what Saul had done. I am at a loss as to what clue you think is in there. If you could just explain that it would be great.

In vs. 19 of 1 Samuel 28 this familar spirit that has taken on the form of an old man covered with a mantle being believed to actually be Samuel, as Saul never looked at it, but only asked what it looked like and what form it was, vs. 13, 14. This familar spirit predicted the fate of Saul now being an enemy of God that he and his sons would die tomorrow in battle and that Saul and his sons would be with him that day.

We have already gone over that prophecy was given at this point(yes I understand you used the word prediction). More was told to Saul that what you said in your little summary, and it was all true. Daniel 2 shows us that the enemy cannot do accurate prophecy.

Meaning because of Saul's transgressions against the Lord and His word and asking counsel of one that had a familar spirit that Saul will also be cast into the lake of fire on judgement day as it was God that slew Saul by his own sword that he fell on, 1 Chronicles 10.

This is a combination of your judgement of Saul and scripture. This should be a no-go area(Romans 14:4). In this discussion I see your adamant defense of your own salvation and willingness to let others know how they shouldn't judge you or your position with God, which is correct. But here we see you doing it with Saul. You are judging him as condemned and are speaking on matters reflecting on how you would treat an enemy, which you think is how God would treat an enemy. For someone who constantly reminds people that their thoughts are not God's thoughts, I must remind you that it applies to you.

Like I said before, this is going to boil down to what you believe a familiar spirit is capable of doing and using that to judge the Word. Do you honestly have enough confidence in your internet research and the information available there for that to be something anyone should do?

 

[for_his_glory]

This is correct, we do not disagree. The prophets he asked didn't have an answer for him, but they did talk to him. They would have had to tell him that they had no answer from God for him, much like the spirit of Samuel did.


I am a bit confused here. What do you think these clues mean? Being an enemy of God does not void communication from Him. God communicated with His enemies in Egypt and was to do it again in Babylon. Samuel reminded Saul about what he said before, when he relayed the judgement about the consequences of what Saul had done. I am at a loss as to what clue you think is in there. If you could just explain that it would be great.


We have already gone over that prophecy was given at this point(yes I understand you used the word prediction). More was told to Saul that what you said in your little summary, and it was all true. Daniel 2 shows us that the enemy cannot do accurate prophecy.


This is a combination of your judgement of Saul and scripture. This should be a no-go area(Romans 14:4). In this discussion I see your adamant defense of your own salvation and willingness to let others know how they shouldn't judge you or your position with God, which is correct. But here we see you doing it with Saul. You are judging him as condemned and are speaking on matters reflecting on how you would treat an enemy, which you think is how God would treat an enemy. For someone who constantly reminds people that their thoughts are not God's thoughts, I must remind you that it applies to you.

Like I said before, this is going to boil down to what you believe a familiar spirit is capable of doing and using that to judge the Word. Do you honestly have enough confidence in your internet research and the information available there for that to be something anyone should do?

What other prophets are you speaking of as I believe Samuel was the only prophet that spoke to Saul when Samuel was alive as Saul sought out Samuel's wisdom.

1 Samuel 28:6 makes it very clear that God shut off all communication with Saul because Saul did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, which he never repented of. Although he did ask Samuel to forgive him, but never repented before God or asked God for forgiveness. God wouldn't even allow a prophet to speak to him. It's like that of Hosea 4:6, 7. This is why Saul sought out a medium/witch as he was desperate for any answer.

We can read in the OT how God communicated with the enemy either by dreams or by speaking through His prophets. Now concerning Saul God would not answer him by dreams, Urim or prophets. God had already rejected Saul and took the kingdoms out of his hands giving them to David as king. This is the two clues, God rejected Saul and no longer spoke to him by any means and Saul became God's enemy. Saul could have changed all that if he would have gone to God and repented of his disobedience and God would have given him and Israel the victory over the Philistines. Instead God slew him in battle as Saul fell on his own sword, 1 Chronicles 10:13.

In my saying Saul would be cast into the lake of fire, I was not judging Saul as God already judged him by that of what is written in 1 Chronicles 10:13. I can only assume that he will have no place in God's kingdom by how he died. I have no right to judge anyone other than the fruits they display.

No internet search needed as what I believe is scripture that defines what a familar spirit is by the definition of the word owb, obe and yiddoniy found in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Hebrew # 178 and 3049. Scripture gives us warnings to stay away from such things.

 

[Northman]

What other prophets are you speaking of as I believe Samuel was the only prophet that spoke to Saul when Samuel was alive as Saul sought out Samuel's wisdom.

1 Samuel 10:10-11 Speaks of Saul doing prophecy among a group of prophets, this was right after he was anointed king and given a new heart. While Samuel was indeed chief prophet and last of the judges, he was not the only prophet. Those other guys would be the ones Saul had to bother about what to do about the Philistines.

1 Samuel 28:6 makes it very clear that God shut off all communication with Saul because Saul did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, which he never repented of.

The scripture makes it very clear that God would not answer Saul's inquiry, which was what to do about the Philistines. You are expanding that to mean all communication. The becauses don't change what is written there. "God didn't answer Saul's question by any means." That's what the verse says, nothing more.

This is why Saul sought out a medium/witch as he was desperate for any answer.

For an answer on what to do about the Philistines, of which was never given, not by a familiar spirit, not by the spirit of Samuel, not by God. Scripture never deviates from Saul's query being about the Philistines.

This is the two clues, God rejected Saul and no longer spoke to him by any means and Saul became God's enemy.

The problem of having to deal with those clues is that I first have to say that yes your interpretation of 1 Samuel 28:6 is correct and it is not talking about Saul seeking what to do about the Philistines but instead means God would not communicate with Saul, period. Once I accept that then it becomes a clue, it doesn't work before that. For the other part of the clue, I still do not understand. Scripture is clear that God communicated with his enemies. The only way I see it working is if I conclude that God would not give warning or communicate in any way with His enemies, which would be contrary to scripture.

In my saying Saul would be cast into the lake of fire, I was not judging Saul as God already judged him by that of what is written in 1 Chronicles 10:13. I can only assume that he will have no place in God's kingdom by how he died. I have no right to judge anyone other than the fruits they display.

That is actually the definition of judging. The scripture doesn't say what his final fate is. Saul's disobedience cost him his life, the lives of all but one of his boys, the loss of the battle, and the loss of Israel itself. That's all scripture says. The rest has to be assumed and then judged off of those assumptions. Being OT Jewish, he is the equivalent of a brother. Nobody but God gets to say what his final destination is. None of this is in contradiction to knowing someone by their fruits. Know someones fruit, don't pronounce anything.

No internet search needed as what I believe is scripture that defines what a familar spirit is by the definition of the word owb, obe and yiddoniy found in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Hebrew # 178 and 3049. Scripture gives us warnings to stay away from such things.

So where in this definition does it say that a familiar spirit takes the form of a human or animal? Where does it say that a familiar spirit comes up out of a spirit realm? Where does it say that a familiar spirit is somehow allowed to take the form of a major prophet? Where does it even say that these entities can reveal themselves to regular people? These are just a few of the things you have said about these spirits that contribute to what you believe occurred.

 

[for_his_glory]

1 Samuel 10:10-11 Speaks of Saul doing prophecy among a group of prophets, this was right after he was anointed king and given a new heart. While Samuel was indeed chief prophet and last of the judges, he was not the only prophet. Those other guys would be the ones Saul had to bother about what to do about the Philistines.


The scripture makes it very clear that God would not answer Saul's inquiry, which was what to do about the Philistines. You are expanding that to mean all communication. The becauses don't change what is written there. "God didn't answer Saul's question by any means." That's what the verse says, nothing more.


For an answer on what to do about the Philistines, of which was never given, not by a familiar spirit, not by the spirit of Samuel, not by God. Scripture never deviates from Saul's query being about the Philistines.


The problem of having to deal with those clues is that I first have to say that yes your interpretation of 1 Samuel 28:6 is correct and it is not talking about Saul seeking what to do about the Philistines but instead means God would not communicate with Saul, period. Once I accept that then it becomes a clue, it doesn't work before that. For the other part of the clue, I still do not understand. Scripture is clear that God communicated with his enemies. The only way I see it working is if I conclude that God would not give warning or communicate in any way with His enemies, which would be contrary to scripture.


That is actually the definition of judging. The scripture doesn't say what his final fate is. Saul's disobedience cost him his life, the lives of all but one of his boys, the loss of the battle, and the loss of Israel itself. That's all scripture says. The rest has to be assumed and then judged off of those assumptions. Being OT Jewish, he is the equivalent of a brother. Nobody but God gets to say what his final destination is. None of this is in contradiction to knowing someone by their fruits. Know someones fruit, don't pronounce anything.


So where in this definition does it say that a familiar spirit takes the form of a human or animal? Where does it say that a familiar spirit comes up out of a spirit realm? Where does it say that a familiar spirit is somehow allowed to take the form of a major prophet? Where does it even say that these entities can reveal themselves to regular people? These are just a few of the things you have said about these spirits that contribute to what you believe occurred.

Thank you for 1 Samuel 10:10-11. I actually read chapters 9 and ten to refresh myself on this.

I do see it as all communication was cut off between God and Saul as Saul went into battle without God's protection. God took the kingship of Saul and gave it to David as it even repented God He made Saul king. Saul never ceased in trying to kill David.

Yes, the verse says not by dreams, Urim or prophets so why do so many say this was actually Samuel if God would not speak to Saul by a prophet?

I never said scripture never deviates from Saul's query about the Philistines as that was why he was so distressed that he reached out to something that was forbidden by God.

God always gave warning to his enemies by either dreams or by prophets sent to them. As far as judging Saul's fate after his death comes by that of 1 Chronicles 10:13. Do you really think that God is going to favor one who transgresses against Him and His word and for asking counsel of one who had a familar spirit? Does it not say that God slew him and turned the kingdom unto David? Saul, who was at one time highly favored of the Lord as He made him king over Israel walked away from God and expected God to answer him after all the evil he did against God. Saul had a chance to repent and ask God's forgiveness before he died, but never did.

I will give you that as at first I did look it up and found that about humans an animals as Satan can use anything or anyone he chooses to work through and can even appear as an angel of light. The Hebrew definitions I looked them up in my concordance.

It's not a spiritual realm like that of God's realm, but that of the spiritual underworld of darkness of things introduced by Satan like magic, sorcery, demons etc. etc. Satan can take on any form he wants so why would it be a surprise he would take on the form of Samuel.

Entities are nothing more then demons that can inhabit humans and animals.

Mark 5:1-20 is the definitive passage on demon possession and its effects in the Bible. Some of the details about demons the Bible reveals in this passage are:

1. Devils want to be near dead human bodies or tombs (vs. 2, 3, 5).
2. They can cause unusual strength (vs. 3-4).
3. They can make a person unreasonable or immune to sensible persuasion (vs. 4).
4. They cause excessive crying (vs. 5).
5. They cause sadistic and masochistic behavior (vs. 5).
6. They have an affinity for heights (vs. 5).
7. They recognize Christ as "the Son of God" and appeal to Him (vs. 6-7).
8. They know they deserve torment and dread it (vs. 6-7).
9. They have names (vs. 9).
10. More than one can possess the same body (vs. 9).
11. They desire to stay in the same geographical region or "country" (vs. 10).
12. They would rather indwell an animal body than none at all (vs. 12).
13. They can cause animals to kill themselves (vs. 13).
14. They desire to be in a body when it dies (vs. 13).
15. They have a desire for water (vs. 13).

Mark 9:17-29 gives us even more details about devils:

16. They can cause dumbness and deafness (vs. 17, 25).
17. They cause rabid animal like behavior (vs. 18).
18. They can indwell from childhood (vs. 21).
19. They cause suicidal behavior (vs. 22).
20. They resist leaving a body and violently "rent" it while leaving (vs. 26).
21. There are different kinds of devils. Some have more power than others (vs. 29).
22. Some can only be removed by prayer and fasting of believer (vs. 29).

Ephesians 6:12 states Satan has a hierarchy of "devils" in his kingdom, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Thus some devils have more power and authority than others.

 

[K2CHRIST]

His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. We might not think God would have warned king Saul, given all he had done wrong, but what about God?

What have we done wrong?

 

[for_his_glory]

His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. We might not think God would have warned king Saul, given all he had done wrong, but what about God?

What have we done wrong?

What about God? Did Saul ever repent and ask forgiveness of the Lord for his disobedience rejecting the word of God, no. Saul went as far in his disobedience and rejecting God's commands, because of his fear of the Philistines, to actually seek out a medium/witch with a familar spirit that is forbidden by God to do so. God considers it an act of rebellion which is the same sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry, 1 Samuel 15:23.

Did Saul have a chance to repent and ask God's forgiveness, yes, but he never did and for that he went into battle and God slew him by his own sword, 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Hosea 4:6, 7 is what happened to Saul.

 

[Northman]

Yes, the verse says not by dreams, Urim or prophets so why do so many say this was actually Samuel if God would not speak to Saul by a prophet?

You are changing words again, this piece of scripture does not say the word speak. Where you are saying it says speak, it actually says answer. It says God would not answer Saul, not God would not speak to Saul. You need to understand that the word you want to use is not there.

I never said scripture never deviates from Saul's query about the Philistines as that was why he was so distressed that he reached out to something that was forbidden by God.

You said Saul was desperate for any answer.

Saul had a chance to repent and ask God's forgiveness before he died, but never did.

Where does it say that?

Do you really think that God is going to favor one who transgresses against Him and His word and for asking counsel of one who had a familar spirit?

Favour hasn't been mentioned, the depths of God's mercy to reach one of His own has.

Does it not say that God slew him and turned the kingdom unto David?

It says the kingdom was torn from him right after the battle with Amalek, long before Saul died.

I will give you that as at first I did look it up and found that about humans an animals as Satan can use anything or anyone he chooses to work through and can even appear as an angel of light. The Hebrew definitions I looked them up in my concordance.

Satan can use anything or anyone he chooses? I won't ask where that is written because it's not. We know how the devil works, and what he pretends to be, but why change the wording in 2 Corinthians 11:14?

It's not a spiritual realm like that of God's realm, but that of the spiritual underworld of darkness of things introduced by Satan like magic, sorcery, demons etc. etc. Satan can take on any form he wants so why would it be a surprise he would take on the form of Samuel.

Where are you getting the idea that the devil can take any form he wants? Where does it say that? Realms? Can you hear yourself? Glory, none of this stuff is written anywhere. This is the exact thing I was talking about when I said the term Christian mysticism.

Ephesians 6:12 states Satan has a hierarchy of "devils" in his kingdom, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Thus some devils have more power and authority than others.

Something totally relevant. The only thing the multitude of cultures seem to be able to agree on about what we in Christendom would term a familiar spirit is that they are very low in rank.

I'm not sure what that list is for. I have no idea why in the world you would say devils want to be near dead bodies or tombs when the scripture doesn't use those words. One possession account taking place in or near a graveyard and all of a sudden it's a rule for them all? One account in the mountains and that means they have an affinity for heights? Devils have a desire for water? That's not there either. Legion didn't run into the water cause it/they enjoyed being wet, it was done so they could be free of the humiliation of being in swine. There is more but that list doesn't need addressing. We aren't talking about those kinds of nasties, we are talking about the minor ones that would be termed familiar spirits.

We have to deal with the text and what it says. We cannot go beyond that. Stepping into the judgement seat of Saul and thinking that because you figure he is condemned that now anything and everything evil can happen with no holds barred is not a scriptural stance.