For Who Did Christ Die? by John Owen

[JLB]

In Vs 4 its translated chosen Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Its the greek word eklegomai :

to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
2. choosing one for an office
3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

Jesus uses the same word to identify Gods elect Mk 13:20

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Yes, chosen for purpose not chosen for salvation.


Paul was a sinner, unsaved.

Then he encountered Jesus Christ and believed in Him and became saved.

Paul certainly wasn't saved before he believed, as you claim.

 

[JLB]

JLB



From the penalty of sin yes he was, but from the power of sin no

Please show us the scripture that says a person is born saved from the penalty of sin.

 

[electedbyhim]

Elect refers to the Jews.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


Please explain how the elect may also obtain salvation.

I have shown you this in post #63, but you refuse to believe it.

 

[JLB]

Who are the Elect of God

Simply put, the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the “elect” because that word denotes “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” Every four years in the U.S., we “elect” a President—i.e., we choose who will serve in that office. The same goes for God and those who will be saved; God chooses those who will be saved. These are the elect of God.

This is from post #63.


The scriptures teach that Paul desired for the elect to ALSO obtain salvation.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


The elect refers to the Jews which were God's chosen people.

Not chosen for salvation, but elected for purpose such as a president is elected for a purpose.

The purpose being the generational bloodline of the Messiah.

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

• that the purpose of God according to election might stand

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:6-11


God did not choose Isaac for salvation and Esau for eternal damnation, like Calvinism teaches, that is just plain nonsense, and a perversion of the scriptures.


God chose Isaac for purpose, to be the lineage through which Christ Jesus came.





JLB

 

[electedbyhim]

This is from post #63.


The scriptures teach that Paul desired for the elect to ALSO obtain salvation.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


The elect refers to the Jews which were God's chosen people.

Not chosen for salvation, but elected for purpose such as a president is elected for a purpose.

The purpose being the generational bloodline of the Messiah.

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

• that the purpose of God according to election might stand

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:6-11


God did not choose Isaac for salvation and Esau for eternal damnation, like Calvinism teaches, that is just plain nonsense, and a perversion of the scriptures.


God chose Isaac for purpose, to be the lineage through which Christ Jesus came.





JLB

Thats not the whole post.

Anyhow, you would do well to study Soteriology to get a firm grip on salvation.

Although, I do not believe that you do not study Systematic or Biblical theology

 

[brightfame52]

Elect refers to the Jews.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


Please explain how the elect may also obtain salvation.

All people are sinners, but all people aren't Gods elect.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, chosen for purpose not chosen for salvation.


Paul was a sinner, unsaved.

Then he encountered Jesus Christ and believed in Him and became saved.

Paul certainly wasn't saved before he believed, as you claim.

In Vs 4 its translated chosen Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Its the greek word eklegomai :

to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
2. choosing one for an office
3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

Jesus uses the same word to identify Gods elect Mk 13:20

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

[brightfame52]

Please show us the scripture that says a person is born saved from the penalty of sin.

I have done that for years. its something you dont understand.You can check my threads. Everybody Christ died for has their sinsae forgiven,through HIS Blood Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[JLB]

Thats not the whole post.

Anyhow, you would do well to study Soteriology to get a firm grip on salvation.

Although, I do not believe that you do not study Systematic or Biblical theology

I quoted the point that I was going to address.

 

[electedbyhim]

I quoted the point that I was going to address.

Your point does not make sense.

 

[JLB]

I have done that for years. its something you dont understand.You can check my threads. Everybody Christ died for has their sinsae forgiven,through HIS Blood Eph 1:7

Yes, I agree, you have done this for years. You state your opinion, based on your theological slant, and tag your opinion with a scripture reference, as if the scripture says what your opinion stated.

Christ died for all the world. He who believes will be saved. He who does not believe will not be saved.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

• For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:14-18

• “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

JLB

 

[JLB]

In Vs 4 its translated chosen Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Chosen for purpose, not chosen for salvation.

• being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:3-14

 

[electedbyhim]

Chosen for purpose, not chosen for salvation.

• being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:3-14

How do you not see election and salvation in those verses?

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, I agree, you have done this for years. You state your opinion, based on your theological slant, and tag your opinion with a scripture reference, as if the scripture says what your opinion stated.

Christ died for all the world. He who believes will be saved. He who does not believe will not be saved.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

• For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:14-18

• “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

JLB

Thats about the elect/sheep

 

[JLB]

How do you not see election and salvation in those verses?

I do see election and salvation in these verses.

However salvation involves hearing and believing (obeying) the gospel message of Jesus Christ.

Paul is writing to the church at Ephesus, born again believers who are already saved; saved by grace through faith.


Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


Your theory that people are saved without ever hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not biblical.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13


This is how a person becomes saved; becomes born again.

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

This principle never changes from letter to letter, from book to book, or from verse to verse.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Thats about the elect/sheep

Elect is not mentioned in John 3:16.

The world is what is mentioned.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

The condition for the world to receive everlasting life is to believe.



Do you believe the world = elect?




JLB

 

[electedbyhim]

I do see election and salvation in these verses.

However salvation involves hearing and believing (obeying) the gospel message of Jesus Christ.

Paul is writing to the church at Ephesus, born again believers who are already saved; saved by grace through faith.


Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


Your theory that people are saved without ever hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not biblical.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13


This is how a person becomes saved; becomes born again.

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

This principle never changes from letter to letter, from book to book, or from verse to verse.




JLB

Your theory that people are saved without ever hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not biblical.

Where have I ever said that?

 

[JLB]

Where have I ever said that?

This is what Calvinist’s believe; that first a person is saved, then later on they believe the Gospel.


This is what brightfame52 believes and teaches.


To this I ask, how does a person become saved, if not by believing the good news of Jesus Christ, and the salvation He paid the price for on the cross?

 

[electedbyhim]

This is what Calvinist’s believe; that first a person is saved, then later on they believe the Gospel.


This is what brightfame52 believes and teaches.


To this I ask, how does a person become saved, if not by believing the good news of Jesus Christ, and the salvation He paid the price for on the cross?

One has to be regenerated by the holy Spirirt to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

An unregenerated person cannot do this on their own, it is the work of Holy Spirit, a gift from God.

 

[JLB]

One has to be regenerated by the holy Spirirt to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

How does a person become born again, regenerated, without hearing and believing the Gospel?