Forum Poll

[Rajesh Sahu]

2 of 2

I know it's difficult for you to accept this FG, and you probably won't even read it.
I can understand---it's rather unsettling. But this is what the church has always believed.


Justin, c. A.D. 155
If they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God, and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" [Ps. 32:2]. That is, he repents of his sins so that he may receive remission of them from God. It is not as you deceive yourselves, along with others who resemble you in this, and say that even though they are sinners, but know God, the Lord will not imput sin to them. We have as proof of this the one fall of David, which happened because of his boasting, which was forgiven when he mourned and wept in the way it is written. If even to such a man no remission was granted before repentance and only when this great king, anointed one, and prophet mourned and conducted himself as it is written, then how can the impure and utterly abandoned, if they do not weep, do not mourn, and do not repent, entertain the hope that the Lord will not impute sin to them? (Dialogue with Trypho 141)

Hermas, c. A.D. 160
"He that does not know God," [the angel of repentance] answered, "and practices evil, receives a certain chastisement for his wickedness, but he that has known God ought not to do evil anymore but to do good. If, accordingly, when he ought to do good, he does evil, does he not appear to do greater evil than the one who does not know God? For this reason, those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death, but those who have known God and have seen his mighty works and still continue in evil shall be chastised doubly and shall die forever. This is the way the Church of God will be purified." (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:8)

Irenaeus, A.D. 183 - 186
We … ought ourselves to fear, lest by chance, after the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from his kingdom. (Against Heresies, IV:27:2)

[Irenaeus quotes 1 Cor. 6:9-10 here about inheriting the kingdom of God.] It was not to those who are outside that he said these things, but to us, lest we should be cast out of the kingdom of God by doing any such thing. He proceeds to say, "And truly such were you, but you are washed, but you are sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" [1 Cor. 6:11]. And just as [under the old covenant], those who led vicious lives and led other people astray were condemned and cast out, so also even now the offending eye is plucked out, and the foot and the hand, lest the rest of the body perish in the same way. (Against Heresies, IV:27:4)

Basil, c. A.D. 362
Vain then is the labor of the righteous man, and free from blame is the way of the sinner if a change come to pass, and the former turn from the better to the worse and the latter from the worse to the better. So we hear from Ezekiel ... when he says, "If the righteous man turns away and commits iniquity, I will not remember the righteousness which he did before. In his sin he shall die." And so, too, about the sinner: if he turns away from his wickedness and does what is right, he shall live. (Epistle 42 as numbered by The Ante-Nicene Fathers, published by Eerdmans and Hendrickson.)

Vain then is the labour of the righteous man, and free from blame is the way of the sinner, if a change befall, and the former turn from the better to the worse, and the latter from the worse to the better. So we hear from Ezekiel teaching as it were in the name of the Lord, when he says, “if the righteous turneth away and committeth iniquity, I will not remember the righteousness which he committed before; in his sin he shall die,”2063 and so too about the sinner; if he turn away from his wickedness, and do that which is right, he shall live. (Letter from St. Basil of Caesarea to Chilo, his disciple. Basil 42:2)

Wondering I remember vividly you had beautifully put in one of your messages couple of months back .
" Let us do our best
And leave to Christ the rest"
This concisely explains what salvation doctrine is all about . Only Jesus and father God know who will be finally saved . I often find it amusing when people issue salvation guarantees . Revelation book reveal a lot on who all will be saved and what will be the procedure for that . I love the book of Revelation. It helped me to understand the myth of " you believe, you're saved " type of false doctrine that's being preached n followed nowadays. It's plain heresy in my opinion.

 

[JLB]

Your poll is a trap the way it is worded.
I had to give a lot of thought before I answered.
In all fairness, you should have worded it in a simpler manner.
Not everyone has your brains JLB.

Your welcome to change your answer if you like.

FreeGrace says a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ, and turn to the antichrist as lord and still be saved.

Is that what you believe?

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36 NIV


Personally I don’t think you believe that way, but if you want to change your answer you can.


The Bible gives the simple condition for eternal life, which is to believe.


If somewhere later in life, a person does not want to continue believing, and meeting this simple condition, then they can choose to reject Jesus Christ and believe in the antichrist, Or Allah, or Maitriea, as their lord and savior.


The choice is yours.



JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Your welcome to change your answer if you like.

FreeGrace says a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ, and turn to the antichrist as lord and still be saved.

Is that what you believe?

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36 NIV


Personally I don’t think you believe that way, but if you want to change your answer you can.


The Bible gives the simple condition for eternal life, which is to believe.


If somewhere later in life, a person does not want to continue believing, and meeting this simple condition, then they can choose to reject Jesus Christ and believe in the antichrist, Or Allah, or Maitriea, as their lord and savior.


The choice is yours.



JLB

I don't believe that if you have the Holy Spirit, that he will ever let go of you.
If I sin, I repent.
That's part of OSAS.

 

[JLB]

You are over emphasizing "continue" to the point where people think they have to work for their salvation.
Why should you think that everyone understands as you do when you purposely emphasize a word that could cause someone to think "works"?

Continue in the faith.

Continue to have faith.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:21-23

• if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

One of the big things Paul had to deal with, is Jews coming behind him when he left a Church, and teaching the Gentiles they had to keep the law of Moses and become circumcised in order to be saved.

That would be the definition of saved by works.


Paul called this “another gospel”.


I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9


Again


You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4


If a person is removed or severed from Christ, are they still saved?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't believe that if you have the Holy Spirit, that he will ever let go of you.
If I sin, I repent.
That's part of OSAS.

I’m glad to here you say that.

That’s a great attitude.

If I sin, I repent.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Only if it can be shown that the Bible considers a believer who only believes for a while (Luke 8:13) becomes an "unbeliever" that you'd have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

Such a view is like going from being born again to being unborn. That is worse than silly. And has no justification for such a view.

It may seem silly to you, but it's a very serious matter.
In Mathew 13:21 Jesus Himself says that it's possible for one to believe only temporarily. In verse 20 the hearer receives the word with joy, but it was only temporary and when affliction arises, he FALLS AWAY. What did the hearer fall away from if not the salvation of hearing the word and receiving it with joy.

Mathew 10:33 Jesus says that whoever will deny Him, Jesus will also deny before His Father in heaven. Did Jesus give a time frame? No. Because the denying could happen from the beginning and the person was never saved, or it could happen after believing and the person, once again, falls away and will be denied by Jesus before the Father.

I dare to bring up Adam and Eve. They were friendly with God while they obeyed Him. When they disobeyed Him, they were banished from the Garden. This should be enough of a warning for everyone and make them desire to obey God.

Teaching that God could be disobeyed and still receive heaven is heretical teaching.

The verses on God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) and warning of loss of reward refutes your opinion.

Further, regarding this supposed "license to sin", just read Rom 7 about what Paul struggled with (sin).

Humans don't need a license to sin. We all have a sin nature. Duh.

What I post is not my opinion. I posted many statements from church fathers regarding what was believed in the church before 1,500AD. Can it be that all theologians were incorrect and only now do we have the truth? Can it be that cheap grace believers are correct and everyone else has been wrong? Cheap grace believers is the name given to those who think they can live a life of sin and still enter heaven. The sinful will not enter heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
NASB

Oh, just stop it. Paul wrote about it clearly. Rom 8:35-39. 1 Thess 5:4-11.

Romans 8:35-39
This is correct. Nothing will separate us from the love of God. As long as we DO love God. WE ourselves are the only power that can separate us from God...when we stop loving Him and serving Him.
You'll notice in verse 37 it says that we will be CONQUERORS through Him who loves us in all these afflictions.
Who does God love? He loves those who love His Son enough to bring them to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-11
Again. This goes against what you believe.
It tells us to be sober and awake. It tells us that we, the saved, are of the light.
That this "helmet" is our HOPE OF SALVATION. What we hope for has not been attained yet. We hope for our salvation. IF we have salvation through our Lord Jesus.

Verse 12 tells us that we are to be instructed by those who have charge over us.
I've never read anywhere in the N.T. that we can act out a sinful life and still be saved.

This is akin to calling Jesus a heretic, because He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, which is eternal security. Prior to that, He said those who believe HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life.

So His statement about recipients never perishing is a promise from the moment one believes.

Yes FG. Jesus said "those who believe HAVE eternal life.
NOT those who BELIEVED. (past tense)
We must believe at the time of our death and be living the commandments Jesus left us when we die in order to inherit the kingdom.
Acts 20:32
"And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified."

Those who do not live according to God's standards are not sanctified and will not be given the inheritance.

 

[JLB]

I don't believe that if you have the Holy Spirit, that he will ever let go of you.

I don’t either, for the most part.

I do believe we can walk away or turn to another lord, especially if we or our family is being persecuted.



JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Continue in the faith.

Continue to have faith.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:21-23

• if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

One of the big things Paul had to deal with, is Jews coming behind him when he left a Church, and teaching the Gentiles they had to keep the law of Moses and become circumcised in order to be saved.

That would be the definition of saved by works.


Paul called this “another gospel”.


I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9


Again


You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4


If a person is removed or severed from Christ, are they still saved?



JLB

Many can claim to know Christ but it never reaches the heart.
Why are there two billion people today claiming to be Christians?
Do you think they are all saved?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don’t either, for the most part.

I do believe we can walk away or turn to another lord, especially if we or our family is being persecuted.



JLB

Well, I've never experienced that.
Nor do I know anyone who has.
So I don't have any reason to believe it to be true.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't believe that if you have the Holy Spirit, that he will ever let go of you.
If I sin, I repent.
That's part of OSAS.

You make this very personal...
But there are those, even on different forums, who believe they could sin and still be saved. I don't mean one sin - we all sin and must be forgiven. They believe they could deny Jesus, live a life of sin, and still be saved because ONE TIME they "accepted" Jesus for their salvation. Accepting Jesus also means listening to Him and seeing Him as Lord and as an example of how we should live.

As to works...yes, works are included in salvation for the simple reason that they show our salvation. If there are no "works", the chances are that we are not really saved.
(what we do for God is a work).

 

[civilwarbuff]

Many can claim to know Christ but it never reaches the heart.
Why are there two billion people today claiming to be Christians?
Do you think they are all saved?

Agreed, there are many who believe with the mind but never become sold out to Messiah with the heart. Those types of 'Christians' can, and I believe, do turn from Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering I remember vividly you had beautifully put in one of your messages couple of months back .
" Let us do our best
And leave to Christ the rest"
This concisely explains what salvation doctrine is all about . Only Jesus and father God know who will be finally saved . I often find it amusing when people issue salvation guarantees . Revelation book reveal a lot on who all will be saved and what will be the procedure for that . I love the book of Revelation. It helped me to understand the myth of " you believe, you're saved " type of false doctrine that's being preached n followed nowadays. It's plain heresy in my opinion.

If we believe we are saved.
The problem is that the easy believism or cheap grace churches do not bother to explain what it means to believe because it might harm the concept of theirs.
To believe means to have trust in. If we have trust in Jesus then we will also follow Him. If we follow Him it means we will adhere to His commandments and do our best to live our life for Him. This is a big responsibility. It shouldn't scare us because the Holy Spirit is our parclete and He'll always be there to help us ... however, we also shouldn't take God very lightly. He always demanded that we obey Him, from the beginning of time.

Some say they love God but then act like they don't. I've met too many mean christians (not here, we have a good forum here), it makes me feel that they've forgotten to read Mathew 5:3-10. Jesus tells us how we are to behave.

 

[JLB]

Please explain the difference between "lose their salvation" and "become lost", if there is a difference.

So far, all I'm seeing is double talk from your posts.

I have explained this point dozens of times, and will do it again here.

However, if this turns out to be another trolling session of yours, where you just call names, and ad hominem and argue with plain and clear truth from the word of God, then I will be forced to ignore you.





Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7


Prodigal Son:

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32


If a brother or sister wanders from Christ, and becomes lost, someone must go to them, and turn them back, or that person will remain lost and receive eternal death.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.


That is what the Bible teaches about one of the Lord’s people becoming lost.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed, there are many who believe with the mind but never become sold out to Messiah with the heart. Those types of 'Christians' can, and I believe, do turn from Christ.

What do you make of Mathew 13:20-21?
Jesus Himself says that the person received the word with joy, then FELL AWAY in verse 21.
What did the person fall away from?
Allen Wynne maybe you could answer this too.

To me it means that the person believed and was saved temporarily, and then fell away. Jesus was careful with His words.

 

[civilwarbuff]

They believe they could deny Jesus, live a life of sin, and still be saved because ONE TIME they "accepted" Jesus for their salvation.

This claim is repeated time and time again on these forums but I have honestly never in my life come across anyone who practices it. Why is that? Oh, I have met some who say 'I used to be a Christian' but after talking to them they can't ever demonstrate that they truly believed. They 'joined a church' usually because of pressure from a boy/girlfriend, husband/wife, family members, etc and thought that was all there was to being Christian. 'I go to church every Sunday' is their claim to faith; CINO's (Christian In Name Only). Many of them still occupy churches today; it takes far more than church attendance to be a Christian, something believers understand but CINO's don't. We can fooled by them, by their words and actions but Messiah will not be fooled.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[JLB]

What an unfortunate misunderstanding of Scripture and God's promises!

Regardless of how any believer's life turns out, there are promises from God.
Rom 8:
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Even whatever happens IN THE FUTURE doesn't effect the believer's security (love) in Christ.

There is no "double jeopardy" in God's plan for His children, in spite of what OSNAS wants to believe.
Rom 4:
7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

These verses are clear; since Christ died for all sin, no sin "will ever be counted against them". In spite of what some claim to the contrary.

Rom 5:20 - The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Rom 6:10 - The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

OSNAS fails to understand what "once for all" means.

Regarding "once for all", consider all these verses:
Heb 7:27, 9:12, 10:2, 10, 1 Pet 3:18

When Christ died for sins, He died for ALL the sins of ALL of humanity.

So, where "sin increased, grace increased ALL THE MORE". But OSNAS doesn't understand that either.

No scriptures here that say a person can reject Jesus Christ and believe in another lord, and still be saved, which is your position and the context from the OP.


So far you are the only one who has voted yes to this, yet you have provided no scripture to validate your position.


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36 NIV


Still waiting for scripture from you that says a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ, and still somehow be saved, which you claim they are still saved.


JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

Jesus Himself says that the person received the word with joy, the FELL AWAY in verse 21.
What did the person fall away from?

I believe those that fall away are those with intellectual faith not saving faith . They grasp salvation with their head and not their heart. That is not to say that intellectual faith cannot lead to saving faith. In fact I believe many of us go through this process; we 'know' God with our minds before we know Him with our hearts.

 

[JLB]

This claim is repeated time and time again on these forums but I have honestly never in my life come across anyone who practices it. Why is that? Oh, I have met some who say 'I used to be a Christian' but after talking to them they can't ever demonstrate that they truly believed. They 'joined a church' usually because of pressure from a boy/girlfriend, husband/wife, family members, etc and thought that was all there was to being Christian. 'I go to church every Sunday' is their claim to faith; CINO's (Christian In Name Only). Many of them still occupy churches today; it takes far more than church attendance to be a Christian, something believers understand but CINO's don't. We can fooled by them, by their words and actions but Messiah will not be fooled.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

This poll is not about whether tares or the enemies seed is ever saved.

A tare will never be “wheat”.

No one is claiming otherwise.

No one is claiming that a person whom Christ “never knew” was ever saved.

What this poll is asking, is born again Christians who reject Jesus Christ.

Not tares, but sons of the kingdom of God.


Please keep the context within the framework of what the poll actually states.



Thanks JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

This claim is repeated time and time again on these forums but I have honestly never in my life come across anyone who practices it. Why is that? Oh, I have met some who say 'I used to be a Christian' but after talking to them they can't ever demonstrate that they truly believed. They 'joined a church' usually because of pressure from a boy/girlfriend, husband/wife, family members, etc and thought that was all there was to being Christian. 'I go to church every Sunday' is their claim to faith; CINO's (Christian In Name Only). Many of them still occupy churches today; it takes far more than church attendance to be a Christian, something believers understand but CINO's don't. We can fooled by them, by their words and actions but Messiah will not be fooled.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I can think of an elder in a church that does just this.
He says he loves Jesus, knows the bible inside out, but is a mean person.
Oh. And I just thought of someone else. These persons sin every time they open their mouth and you know what Jesus said about that. It's not what goes into the mouth but what comes out of it... They truly believe they're saved. Are they? It's not for us to judge, we can only go by what they say. I like to see a change in a person..a particular way of behaving. I don't see this in them and yet they say they're saved and are covered for all their sins. Maybe they act like this exactly because they feel too secure. Maybe feeling too secure is not a good thing.
I like feeling secure, but I also understand that I'll be judged for my actions.
John 5:29
John 9:4

 

[JLB]

I believe those that fall away are those with intellectual faith not saving faith . They grasp salvation with their head and not their heart. That is not to say that intellectual faith cannot lead to saving faith. In fact I believe many of us go through this process; we 'know' God with our minds before we know Him with our hearts.

I asked this question in this thread.


At what point is a person born again?


When they believe?

When they are baptized?

When they do enough good works?


So that we don’t keep talking about people who are not born again, maybe you could share what you believe about when a person is born again.

Again, this poll is not about people who are not born again.



JLB