Forum Poll

[JLB]

Always! I live daily, asking God to reveal to me my sin where it occurs and to help me live according to the Spirit! Renewed each day. Which is why I'm up early and into the Bible and prayer. Everyday. Otherwise I operate in my own strength (which is really operating in weakness since my own strength is flawed.)

Well said.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Hi Papa;
Can you share how one can know for sure they are born again? Those that profess the OSAS view often refer to it as eternal security but how can one truly know they are incapable of rejecting the One who saves or saved them? It seems this is no more secure than the OSNAS view.

You will know false prophets by their fruits. Likewise, the good tree (those truly saved) can be recognized by their fruits as well. And a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

'"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. ' Matthew 7:15-20 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/MAT.7.15-20

'My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. ' John 15:8 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/JHN.15.8

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What do you make of Mathew 13:20-21?
Jesus Himself says that the person received the word with joy, then FELL AWAY in verse 21.
What did the person fall away from?
Allen Wynne maybe you could answer this too.

To me it means that the person believed and was saved temporarily, and then fell away. Jesus was careful with His words.

They are emotional hearers .
They have fleeting impressions, and when tribulation comes upon them, their human weaknesses cause them fall away.
If you don't have the Holy Spirit, then you don't have the strength to withstand the enemy.

 

[JLB]

yes but continue by the power of God and not by our fleshly efforts. If not by the power of God, we will fail. If the power of God isn't present, it's unlikely that such a person was truly born again. They are a goat among the sheep.

If a person was removed or severed from Christ, that means they were at one time “in Christ”, in which they had at one time believed.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I asked this question in this thread.


At what point is a person born again?


When they believe?

When they are baptized?

When they do enough good works?


So that we don’t keep talking about people who are not born again, maybe you could share what you believe about when a person is born again.

Again, this poll is not about people who are not born again.



JLB

People are born again when they receive Jesus in their hearts.

 

[Papa Zoom]

If a person was removed or severed from Christ, that means they were at one time “in Christ”, in which they had at one time believed.

If we are understanding it that way. Look, I know that my view could be wrong since I'm a fallible human and no one has a perfect understanding of all things. But I also know that a surface look at what the Bible "says" is often not enough. I do not read the above in the same way. When I see "severed from Christ" I don't immediately think of what it means, I wonder what it means. And as long as I'm wondering I'm holding fast to what I believe to be true of God: He saves, He keeps. Those He saves are never lost. Along the way are many who claim salvation but don't really know or follow Christ.

 

[JLB]

It is part and parcel......unless you know how to tell the difference between the 2?

No it’s not.

Here is the question from the poll.


How many believe that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in which they depart from faith in Him, and turn to the antichrist, or Allah, or some other god, and confess him as Lord and Savior, and still be saved on the Day of Judgement, when Christ returns?


Again, the question is about “born again Christians”.


Not fake Christians.
Not Tares.
Not those whom He “never knew”.


Please do not derail this thread with such post’s about which we are not discussing.

If you don’t know if you are born again, then maybe you don’t need to participate in this thread.


Thanks


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I know what you're talking about CWB.
The problem with Mathew is that Jesus is saying that the word was received with joy.
When a person hears the word of God and accepts it, he is filled with joy. As he is filled with that joy, it brings him to endeavor to live for Christ. We don't know if this could last a month or a lifetime.

Then Jesus Himself says that the joy was only temporary because tribulation comes along and the person falls away.

He falls away from God, from Christ, from the joy of living for God,,,he falls away from the faith he had.

Adam fell away. What better example. He knew God and spoke to Him.
Adam disobeyed and fell away. He fell away from God's friendship, he fell away from the relationship he had with God - he was banished from the Garden the same way those who fall away will be banished from heaven.

The Bible doesn't say that.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Okay, I'm off to do my work that I promised God I'd do (which is my service of obedience to Him). This is a good discussion and it needs to stay respectful. Remember, no personal comments. Stick to your views, challenge opposing views respectfully. Support your view with Scripture where appropriate. Keep the conversation flowing and don't play moderator if someone isn't acting according to Hoyle. ;) You all know what I mean. I'll be back later.

We're all brothers and sisters and we're having a friendly discussion on an important matter. Let's honor Christ by honoring each other and serving one another in love!

 

[JLB]

People are born again when they receive Jesus in their hearts.

Ok.

When do people receive Jesus in their hearts.


When they believe; obey the Gospel?
When they are baptized?
When they do enough good works?

Ok, since it’s you and you are the favorite, I will show you and only you, the answer, so you can score a 100.

Don’t tell the others.


22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23



JLB

 

[JLB]

Okay, I'm off to do my work that I promised God I'd do (which is my service of obedience to Him). This is a good discussion and it needs to stay respectful. Remember, no personal comments. Stick to your views, challenge opposing views respectfully. Support your view with Scripture where appropriate. Keep the conversation flowing and don't play moderator if someone isn't acting according to Hoyle. ;) You all know what I mean. I'll be back later.

We're all brothers and sisters and we're having a friendly discussion on an important matter. Let's honor Christ by honoring each other and serving one another in love!

 

[FreeGrace]

How does it date to the Old Testament if it's not even in the New Testament?

Totally false.

Nowhere in the New Testament is it taught that no matter what we do, we are always and still saved.

Actually, it's stated in the opposite terms. There's nothing we can do to lose salvation.

Where did Jesus insert ANY condition on never perishing to recipients of eternal life in John 10:28? Please advise.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sir how many "believers" are willing to die for Jesus today out of two billion "saved" Christians?

Don't know. But where does the Bible teach that one must be willing to die for Jesus in order to never perish?

Did Jesus say:
"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish"

or

"I give them eternal life and IF they are willing to die for Me they shall never perish"
?

Which is it?

If Catholics believe faith and obedience both needed, I believe they got that part correct

Edit by Stovebolts

 

[FreeGrace]

You say the apostles were willing to die for truth . What truth did they see which we cannot huh ?

Do you not agree that the apostles were willing to die for the truth?? But my question was ignored. Where does the Bible state in clear terms that one must be "willing to die in order to never perish"? If there isn't one, why should anyone believe such a thing?

Everyone wants to just believe...

Is there a point here? Clearly, not everyone "just wants to believe". Many refuse to believe.

 

[FreeGrace]

What understanding came upon them , that they all changed and laid down their lives instead of hiding ?

The resurrection, no doubt about it.

 

[FreeGrace]

How does someone “depart from” the living God, but somehow was never reconciled to Him, or a part of Him.

Please believe 2 Cor 5:14-19.
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

This warning is about deserting Christ and becoming faithless, no longer having the confidence or substance of the the salvation we once hoped for.

It should be obvious to everyone that those who desert Christ/become faithless lose their confidence of their salvation. But how does that translate into losing salvation? No one has or can explain that.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Why is it that OSNAS fails to understand anything about the issue of fellowship with Christ?

 

[FreeGrace]

We will NEVER PERISH IF WE BELIEVE.

Thank you cleraly demonstrating how OSNAS fails to read verses correctly.

John 10:28 says nothing about your statement. Please read the verse again. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Obviously in order to be a recipient of eternal life, one must have believed.
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 John 5:13.

If we STOP believing we will perish.

So please find and quote ANY verse that actually says this opinion.

It all depends on our belief.

No, it has always depended upon the work of Christ, which must be believed. Your statement makes your action of believing what saves. Which doesn't. It's not the verb (believe) that saves us; it's the noun (object of our believing - Jesus Christ) who saves.

I would seriously question the reliability of those who have been teaching you if that's your view.

Here is what some of the early church fathers believed.

It is immaterial what those guys believed. What must be believed is what the Bible SAYS. And it sure doesn't say that salvation can be lost.

They were the closest to the Apostles, and some knew an apostle or someone that was taught by an apostle. They knew much more about what Jesus and Paul taught than you and I ever will:

Ignatius, A.D. 110

Pseudo-Barnabas, A.D. 120 - 130

Pseudo-Clement, A.D. 100 - 150[/QUOTE]
So, "closest to the apostles", huh? None of these guys lived during the times of the apostles.

And...none of them wrote Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

The difference between the apostles and easy believism Christians of today is that the apostles RESPONDED to Christ's call for obedience. They had seen with their own eyes Jesus always did God's will over His own. They knew Christ wanted obedience from His followers . Plus they had no means to read Paul's account ( or needed to read) . And it's some of Paul's ( misinterpreted verses) which has led to this mess of easy believism. To the apostles only Christ's words mattered and indeed they recognized Christ's express call for obedience and they responded.

None of this either proves nor supports the notion that obedience is required for salvation.

In fact, the command for obedience is only for believers, saved people.

 

[FreeGrace]

2 of 2

I know it's difficult for you to accept this FG, and you probably won't even read it.
I can understand---it's rather unsettling. But this is what the church has always believed.

Please define "the church". That's a pretty broad brush.

I'm really stumped as to why any of these guys are held above what the Bible actually says.

I will stay with Scripture.


Justin, c. A.D. 155

Hermas, c. A.D. 160

Irenaeus, A.D. 183 - 186

Basil, c. A.D. 362[/QUOTE]
Anyone is free to believe whatever they want to believe.

I want to (and do) believe Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

It seems there are a variety of different things the OSAS community believes about this matter.
JLB

The key, as always, is what the Bible SAYS. Of course there will be great variation of things that are believed within any community. That's true even of OSNAS.

So the point is moot.