God makes some vessels unto honor, some unto dishonor-- are both God's elect?

[Jethro Bodine]

So one can see the stepping stones of the theology.

Exactly my point.

What I'm getting at is because so many in the church see salvation as being so completely and utterly God's choice as to who is saved and who is not, or else give credit to man for salvation (very short-sided and illogical thinking, IMO) it's not surprising that they see predetermined election, and it's necessary counterpart (predetermined destruction) in Romans 9.

I can't help but to think this and other doctrines are born out of the erroneous understanding of Paul's doctrine of law/grace that says the grace of salvation is man not playing any decisive role in salvation whatsoever, or else it would be a works salvation. But that is not what grace is. Grace is simply being given the opportunity to receive a salvation that you neither deserve, nor have to be righteous in and of yourself to have, but which must be accepted by your own choice, simply because God loves you and wants to give it to you.

The thinking that grace is not grace if you have to play some role in accepting it is a gross misunderstanding of Paul's grace/works doctrine. Predetermined election/destruction is just an extension of that erroneous understanding, IMO.

 

[By Grace]

How meaningless Christianity is if we're all just following a script.

The ONLY script Christians need to follow is Scripture itself.

 

[By Grace]

You could have come out the other end of the whale.

It was NOT a whale, Jeff. It was a fish according to what is in the Bible.
The difference may seem trivial, but it really isn't due to what we know about the biology of whales; they are mammals, and the size of their GI tract is somewhat small.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The ONLY script Christians need to follow is Scripture itself.

A script that some people say is 'you are either saved or lost because God decided that for you'. Your life being you simply acting out that predetermined script.

 

[jonahmano]

Why not both?[/qu

Because our God is a just God

 

[jonahmano]

How meaningless Christianity is if we're all just following a script.

Honestly, if that's true I wish God had saved us the trouble.

Yeah, you are right Christianity is meaningless to the people of this world. Because Christianity stands on two things one is the "Word" and the other is "Faith". And both are utter meaningless to the people of this world.

 

[jonahmano]

A script that some people say is 'you are either saved or lost because God decided that for you'. Your life being you simply acting out that predetermined script.

How are you so sure that those you haven't heard the gospel of Christ would have accepted it if they have heard the gospel?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Because our God is a just God

So you think that if God hardened Pharoah's heart so he could be condemned (as well as so he could show his glory through him) makes God unjust? Well, then, I guess God is unjust:

11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yeah, you are right Christianity is meaningless to the people of this world. Because Christianity stands on two things one is the "Word" and the other is "Faith". And both are utter meaningless to the people of this world.

No, it's meaningless to Christians, too, if God makes some people believers and some people unbelievers entirely because that's just what he wants to do and there is nothing they can do about that. What a meaningless gospel that makes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How are you so sure that those you haven't heard the gospel of Christ would have accepted it if they have heard the gospel?

I do, actually.

“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matthew 11:21 NIV)

We know that nobody can be saved who God doesn't reach out to. We also know that judgment is not just based on what you know, but also on what you don't know.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, it's meaningless to Christians, too, if God makes some people believers and some people unbelievers entirely because that's just what he wants to do and there is nothing they can do about that. What a meaningless gospel that makes.

Oh, and especially meaningless since God said he wants all men to be saved knowing he purposely created some to not be believers and who have no choice whatsoever in the matter.

 

[tim alexander]

Everyone who was, is, or will be has an important role to play in God's plan. Certainly, it is some people's way to hurt us, to obstruct us. As difficult as it may be, we should love them for what they do. From adversity flows strength. Nothing happens without God's approval. Perhaps thoughts such as these are the secret to loving our enemies? The "Elect" are those whose names are written in the Book of Life. They alone will accept the revealed mystery that is Christ. This of course begs the question of how those who lived before the Advent of Christ could possibly accept the revealed mystery. The answer is that our Savior has come into this world on many occasions and to many different peoples. To believe that the Savior came but one time to one people is in direct contradiction to the idea that ours is a just and loving God. The Savior is a reoccurring theme in the history of the world. He comes to a people when they have lost the Way of Truth that leads to Life. At that time they are truly the Chosen people of God.

I remember reading the story of the Exodus as a child and even then I could not understand why the Pharaoh continued to resist God, or why God would harden Pharaoh's heart. Stories such as this have led me down a most strange path of thought and discovery. To many Christians my ideas and conclusions will appear strange and even misguided. Those who have eyes let them see. The sacred stories of the Bible are far more than merely true. They are Truth. Truth exists throughout time and space. It is a reoccurring pattern. The details may change but the essence remains. Do not be disheartened by difficult stories. Within them dwell the secrets of God. Seek. He will open a door...perhaps a very strange door...but though it you might discover Truth.

 

[By Grace]

What I'm getting at is because so many in the church see salvation as being so completely and utterly God's choice as to who is saved and who is not, or else give credit to man for salvation (very short-sided and illogical thinking, IMO) it's not surprising that they see predetermined election, and it's necessary counterpart (predetermined destruction) in Romans 9.

I really did not want to get into this sort of discussion with a new Christian, for fear of confusing Clover Me. However this snip from Spurgeon.org may help in your understanding.

The distinction between infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism has to do with the logical order of God's eternal decrees, not the timing of election. Neither side suggests that the elect were chosen after Adam sinned. God made His choice before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)—long before Adam sinned. Both infras and supras (and even many Arminians) agree on this.

SUPRALAPSARIANISM is the view that God, contemplating man as yet unfallen, chose some to receive eternal life and rejected all others. So a supralapsarian would say that the reprobate (non-elect)—vessels of wrath fitted for destruction (Romans 9:22)—were first ordained to that role, and then the means by which they fell into sin was ordained. In other words, supralapsarianism suggests that God's decree of election logically preceded His decree to permit Adam's fall—so that their damnation is first of all an act of divine sovereignty, and only secondarily an act of divine justice.

Supralapsarianism is sometimes mistakenly equated with "double predestination." The term "double predestination" itself is often used in a misleading and ambiguous fashion. <SNIP>

INFRALAPSARIANISM (also known sometimes as "sublapsarianism") suggests that God's decree to permit the fall logically preceded His decree of election. So when God chose the elect and passed over the non-elect, He was contemplating them all as fallen creatures.

Those are the two major Calvinistic views. Under the supralapsarian scheme, God first rejects the reprobate out of His sovereign good pleasure; then He ordains the means of their damnation through the fall. In the infralapsarian order, the non-elect are first seen as fallen individuals, and they are damned solely because of their own sin. Infralapsarians tend to emphasize God's "passing over" the non-elect (preterition) in His decree of election. (emphasis added)​

So what you are confused about is the logical/theological equivalent of the silly question of the Enlightenment, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?'. IMHO it isn't really a discussion worth having unless you are really into Reformed systematic theology, and more important, one's belief of the timing of the Fall has no bearing on how a person gets saved.

I can't help but to think this and other doctrines are born out of the erroneous understanding of Paul's doctrine of law/grace that says the grace of salvation is man not playing any decisive role in salvation whatsoever, or else it would be a works salvation. But that is not what grace is.

True. This is where the Mormons and some others stumble so often. Erroneously, they equate eating a piece of delicious cake with making it. (An analogy)

Grace is simply being given the opportunity to receive a salvation that you neither deserve, nor have to be righteous in and of yourself to have, but which must be accepted by your own choice, simply because God loves you and wants to give it to you.

That is why it is unmerited and free (to be redundant). Going back to the piece of cake, (man! I AM HUNGRY! ) we can either accept it, or refuse it. Ultimately salvation is synergistic (from Greek sunergētikos, from syn- + -ergētikos, from ergon work; ) in that both the free will and the free grace of God both work together, and without both being simultaneously operational, salvation is impossible.

The thinking that grace is not grace if you have to play some role in accepting it is a gross misunderstanding of Paul's grace/works doctrine. Predetermined election/destruction is just an extension of that erroneous understanding, IMO.

I look at that supposed corundum this way:
Predestination is true because the Bible uses that term:

Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Notice the glorious PURPOSE of election. THAT is too often forgotten in the discussion)
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
​

For me to arrogate an explanation of the eternal decrees of a just, righteous and holy God is an exercise in hubris. All I can do is state that that the same God who called me into salvation is the same God who wrote those words. My puny understanding of that fact does not alter that fact one iota.

My response to that is to be a tireless apologist and evangelist hoping that I might lead some to the same glorious salvation that I now possess.

 

[Deborah13]

Exactly my point.

What I'm getting at is because so many in the church see salvation as being so completely and utterly God's choice as to who is saved and who is not, or else give credit to man for salvation (very short-sided and illogical thinking, IMO) it's not surprising that they see predetermined election, and it's necessary counterpart (predetermined destruction) in Romans 9.

I can't help but to think this and other doctrines are born out of the erroneous understanding of Paul's doctrine of law/grace that says the grace of salvation is man not playing any decisive role in salvation whatsoever, or else it would be a works salvation. But that is not what grace is. Grace is simply being given the opportunity to receive a salvation that you neither deserve, nor have to be righteous in and of yourself to have, but which must be accepted by your own choice, simply because God loves you and wants to give it to you.

The thinking that grace is not grace if you have to play some role in accepting it is a gross misunderstanding of Paul's grace/works doctrine. Predetermined election/destruction is just an extension of that erroneous understanding, IMO.

I agree and believe that what you have stated 'fixes' on the topic of this thread.

 

[Deborah13]

I really did not want to get into this sort of discussion with a new Christian, for fear of confusing Clover Me. However this snip from Spurgeon.org may help in your understanding.

The distinction between infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism has to do with the logical order of God's eternal decrees, not the timing of election. Neither side suggests that the elect were chosen after Adam sinned. God made His choice before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)—long before Adam sinned. Both infras and supras (and even many Arminians) agree on this.

SUPRALAPSARIANISM is the view that God, contemplating man as yet unfallen, chose some to receive eternal life and rejected all others. So a supralapsarian would say that the reprobate (non-elect)—vessels of wrath fitted for destruction (Romans 9:22)—were first ordained to that role, and then the means by which they fell into sin was ordained. In other words, supralapsarianism suggests that God's decree of election logically preceded His decree to permit Adam's fall—so that their damnation is first of all an act of divine sovereignty, and only secondarily an act of divine justice.

Supralapsarianism is sometimes mistakenly equated with "double predestination." The term "double predestination" itself is often used in a misleading and ambiguous fashion. <SNIP>

INFRALAPSARIANISM (also known sometimes as "sublapsarianism") suggests that God's decree to permit the fall logically preceded His decree of election. So when God chose the elect and passed over the non-elect, He was contemplating them all as fallen creatures.

Those are the two major Calvinistic views. Under the supralapsarian scheme, God first rejects the reprobate out of His sovereign good pleasure; then He ordains the means of their damnation through the fall. In the infralapsarian order, the non-elect are first seen as fallen individuals, and they are damned solely because of their own sin. Infralapsarians tend to emphasize God's "passing over" the non-elect (preterition) in His decree of election. (emphasis added)​

So what you are confused about is the logical/theological equivalent of the silly question of the Enlightenment, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?'. IMHO it isn't really a discussion worth having unless you are really into Reformed systematic theology, and more important, one's belief of the timing of the Fall has no bearing on how a person gets saved.



True. This is where the Mormons and some others stumble so often. Erroneously, they equate eating a piece of delicious cake with making it. (An analogy)



That is why it is unmerited and free (to be redundant). Going back to the piece of cake, (man! I AM HUNGRY! ) we can either accept it, or refuse it. Ultimately salvation is synergistic (from Greek sunergētikos, from syn- + -ergētikos, from ergon work; ) in that both the free will and the free grace of God both work together, and without both being simultaneously operational, salvation is impossible.



I look at that supposed corundum this way:
Predestination is true because the Bible uses that term:

Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Notice the glorious PURPOSE of election. THAT is too often forgotten in the discussion)
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
​

For me to arrogate an explanation of the eternal decrees of a just, righteous and holy God is an exercise in hubris. All I can do is state that that the same God who called me into salvation is the same God who wrote those words. My puny understanding of that fact does not alter that fact one iota.

My response to that is to be a tireless apologist and evangelist hoping that I might lead some to the same glorious salvation that I now possess.

In my theology, one is not a good vessel until one is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. It is only then that they are saved by grace, through faith.

Please respond with what you believe about my statement.

 

[By Grace]

In my theology, one is not a good vessel until one is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. It is only then that they are saved by grace, through faith.

Please respond with what you believe about my statement.

Thanks for asking. I will try to do my best for you.

Your statement seems to be at odds with Scripture because it seems as of you are saying, "
We are saved by grace AFTER Holy spirit regenerated us, and I assume you are including speaking in tongues as evidence of Holy Spirit regeneration. However, I reserve the right to be wrong in that last statement.

2 Nephi 25:23 "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

The Seventh LDS article of faith, one of the thirteen "creeds" of Mormonism, reads in part: "We believe in the gift of tongues."

Mormons believe that "tongues" indicates "languages," rather than speech-like nonsense or a language not understood by humankind. Founder Joseph Smith taught that "tongues were given for the purpose of preaching among those whose language is not understood."
from https://suite.io/jenny-evans/3wdf2k1

Therefore, it is my belief that your leaders, as sincere as they may be, could be teaching a form of Mormonism, and do not know it.

Compare that above with this:

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works​

.
Notice that in verse 5, while regeneration by Holy Spirit is indeed mentioned, it comes AFTER salvation

The pattern established in Ephesians says TWICE that salvation comes ONLY by grace (hence my user name)

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​

.
In this passage, there is nothing attached to grace; as a result it is alone in salvation with nothing to accompany it. Thus this passage would agree with the Titus passage if one insists that salvation is only and always a matter of unmerited favor.

But only by ignoring the word order in Titus 3:5 could one come to the conclusion that "regeneration of Holy Spirit" (an undefined phrase, thus not precise) comes before salvation. Additionally, that would be a contradictory statement to Ephesians 2:5 & 8,9

Now, what should you do? Study the Bible and read about "salvation by grace" and pray, taking notes on what you learned , THEN take action, and ask hubby (if you have one) what he thinks of your study notes. Talk to seasoned elders and other believers about your learning ask for correct advice. BTW if anyone tries to lay a guilt trip on you for Scripture study, that person's advice is always wrong.

Here is a quote from Lorraine Beottner (a guy) that I like.

If salvation is of grace, as the Scriptures so clearly teach, it cannot be of works, whether actual or foreseen. There is no merit in believing, for faith itself is a gift of God. God gives His people an inward working of the Spirit in order that they may believe, and faith is only the act of receiving the proffered gift. It is, then, only the instrumental cause, and not the meritorious cause, of salvation. What God loves in us is not our own merits, but His own gift; for His unmerited grace precedes our meritorious works. Grace is not merely bestowed when we pray for it, but grace itself causes us to pray for its continuance and increase.

In the book of The Acts we find that the very inception of faith itself is assigned to grace (18:27); only those who were ordained to eternal life believed (13:48); and it is God’s prerogative to open the heart so that it gives heed to the gospel (16:14). Faith is thus referred to the counsels of eternity, the events in time being only the out-working. Paul attributes it to the grace of God that we are “His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them,” Eph. 2:10. Good works, then, are in no sense the meritorious ground but rather the fruits and proof of salvation.​

from http://www.the-highway.com/sgrace_Boettner.html

Hope this helps.

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks for asking. I will try to do my best for you.

Your statement seems to be at odds with Scripture because it seems as of you are saying, "
We are saved by grace AFTER Holy spirit regenerated us, and I assume you are including speaking in tongues as evidence of Holy Spirit regeneration. However, I reserve the right to be wrong in that last statement.

No I do not include 'speaking in tongues' as evidence of Holy Spirit regeneration.

Titus
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Notice verse 5.
'according to his mercy he saved us, BY the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.'
That is how we are saved, the Lord in His mercy and grace, washes and renews us.
I believe that when we receive the Gospel, he washes and renews. I believe this happens all at once.
I believe when He saves us is when we become a good 'vessel' using Calvinist terminlogy.
I do not believe in a works salvation.

So am I to assume that you are not a Calvinist?
Do you believe in perseverance of the saints? The 'P' in TULIP
If you do then you believe in 'obedience unto righteousness' just the same as I do.

Therefore, it is my belief that your leaders, as sincere as they may be, could be teaching a form of Mormonism, and do not know it.

Compare that above with this:

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works​

.
Notice that in verse 5, while regeneration by Holy Spirit is indeed mentioned, it comes AFTER salvation

The pattern established in Ephesians says TWICE that salvation comes ONLY by grace (hence my user name)

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​

.
In this passage, there is nothing attached to grace; as a result it is alone in salvation with nothing to accompany it. Thus this passage would agree with the Titus passage if one insists that salvation is only and always a matter of unmerited favor.

But only by ignoring the word order in Titus 3:5 could one come to the conclusion that "regeneration of Holy Spirit" (an undefined phrase, thus not precise) comes before salvation. Additionally, that would be a contradictory statement to Ephesians 2:5 & 8,9

Now, what should you do? Study the Bible and read about "salvation by grace" and pray, taking notes on what you learned , THEN take action, and ask hubby (if you have one) what he thinks of your study notes. Talk to seasoned elders and other believers about your learning ask for correct advice. BTW if anyone tries to lay a guilt trip on you for Scripture study, that person's advice is always wrong.

Here is a quote from Lorraine Beottner (a guy) that I like.

If salvation is of grace, as the Scriptures so clearly teach, it cannot be of works, whether actual or foreseen. There is no merit in believing, for faith itself is a gift of God. God gives His people an inward working of the Spirit in order that they may believe, and faith is only the act of receiving the proffered gift. It is, then, only the instrumental cause, and not the meritorious cause, of salvation. What God loves in us is not our own merits, but His own gift; for His unmerited grace precedes our meritorious works. Grace is not merely bestowed when we pray for it, but grace itself causes us to pray for its continuance and increase.

In the book of The Acts we find that the very inception of faith itself is assigned to grace (18:27); only those who were ordained to eternal life believed (13:48); and it is God’s prerogative to open the heart so that it gives heed to the gospel (16:14). Faith is thus referred to the counsels of eternity, the events in time being only the out-working. Paul attributes it to the grace of God that we are “His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them,” Eph. 2:10. Good works, then, are in no sense the meritorious ground but rather the fruits and proof of salvation.​

from http://www.the-highway.com/sgrace_Boettner.html

Hope this helps.

 

[By Grace]

http://www.the-highway.com/sgrace_Boettner.html"]No I do not include 'speaking in tongues' as evidence of Holy Spirit regeneration.[/quote]
Since I reserved the right to be wrong, I am OK on that statement.
You must know that since you posted that order of salvation, I did believe that you were pentecostal.

Titus
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Notice verse 5.
'according to his mercy he saved us, BY the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.'
That is how we are saved, the Lord in His mercy and grace, washes and renews us.
I believe that when we receive the Gospel, he washes and renews. I believe this happens all at once.
I believe when He saves us is when we become a good 'vessel' using Calvinist terminlogy.
I do not believe in a works salvation.

OK, let's break down this complicated verse's grammar.

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Tt 3:5). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

The root sentences is "He saved us". That is followed by a series of subordinate adverbial clauses, all of which modify the verb "saved" the second word of verse 5. The first clause begins with "not" the second begins with "but" and has three parts.

Part 1 begins with "according to" which can be understood as "God' s rule book" in which the plan of salvation is entirely God's
Part 2, which comes after that begins with the preposition "through", and it means like going on a particular road to get to a destination.
Part 3 begins with "and renewal"

Since parts 2 and 3 come after salvation by grace (which is the theme of the verse) it is not logical, or grammatically correct to postulate that these can ever come before salvation, as I gather that you are attempting to state. Please tell me if that is a correct statement of what you are saying--I don't want to be wrong twice!

These two parts (2 & 3) indicate that these are more like fruits of salvation rather than causes of salvation. Could you be confusing the terms "justification" and "sanctification" with the "washing of regeneration", and "renewal of Holy Spirit"? The two terms, "justification" and "sanctification" are instantaneous acts done at our salvation,

Justification means that the Christian has no guilt of sin before God, because of what Jesus did on the Cross.
Sanctification is both instantaneous and progressive. It causes us to be more and more like Jesus, and the believer is also sanctified at conversion

So am I to assume that you are not a Calvinist?
Do you believe in perseverance of the saints? The 'P' in TULIP
If you do then you believe in 'obedience unto righteousness' just the same as I do.

Wholeheartedly I believe in the TULIP because I believe that is the most Biblical Systematic Theology, but I am not a "Calvi-Nazi" about that. However, I am unsure about what you mean by "obedience unto righteousness. Could you explain it more so I do not go off on a wrong tangent?

 

[The Gospels]

yes, in a way I guess..

 

[jonahmano]

I do, actually.

“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matthew 11:21 NIV)

We know that nobody can be saved who God doesn't reach out to. We also know that judgment is not just based on what you know, but also on what you don't know.

Yeah today miracles are being performed all over the world and many are getting saved. Can God help to people like you who always question His wisdom?