Bible Study Help, please! So confused…

[Dorothy Mae]

I think Jesus is saying that keeping His commandments is the outward result of loving God. I don't believe we prove we love God by keeping His commandments. We keep His commandments because we want to out of our love for Him.

Why did Jesus tell us to deny ourselves then? Do we wait until we feel so overwhelmed with love for God (like we do during those wonderful "worship" times) so that obedience costs us nothing but is our pleasure?

I feel strongly about this because the joy that comes AFTER one is denied oneself and done the thing one KNOWS God is asking of one is so great, I would that others tasted it. And make no mistake, the higher the cost to the believer, the greater is the joy afterwards. But it needs to be what one KNOWS God wants of one, not something one is making up. That is a sacrifice in vain. If we love Him or to the degree we love Him, we keep His teachings.

 

[Edward]

So in your view does a believer WAIT until they love God to obey? If they don't feel love do they then needs not obey? The thing is this, we see that a person loves us by the way they treat us. When a man loves a woman, he acts in a certain way differently towards her than other women. He does things to ease her way that he does not do for all women. And if he really loves her, he might do these things even though he does not FEEL like it at the moment. It is a stronger love that has determined to please the beloved than the love that waits until it is also pleasant for the doer to please the beloved at the moment. You seem to want believers to wait until they feel love for God to obey him.

 

[WIP]

Not if it’s Gods commands.

I'm wouldn't be so sure.

7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
Matthew 15:7-9 NKJV

 

[WIP]

Why did Jesus tell us to deny ourselves then? Do we wait until we feel so overwhelmed with love for God (like we do during those wonderful "worship" times) so that obedience costs us nothing but is our pleasure?

I feel strongly about this because the joy that comes AFTER one is denied oneself and done the thing one KNOWS God is asking of one is so great, I would that others tasted it. And make no mistake, the higher the cost to the believer, the greater is the joy afterwards. But it needs to be what one KNOWS God wants of one, not something one is making up. That is a sacrifice in vain. If we love Him or to the degree we love Him, we keep His teachings.

We cannot love two gods. Denying ourselves releases us from our own self pride and self control.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We cannot love two gods. Denying ourselves releases us from our own self pride and self control.

Absolutely correct and well put. The difference in our view might be that I think one will likely be called upon to do so with some self-control and less joy. Maybe it is easier for a mother to understand this because as a mother who deeply loves her children, she sometimes has to pull herself together and do through pure will a task that her children need done. Make no mistake, it is from love but there is no joy in choosing to do it or doing it. For example, she comes home tired from a long and difficult day and her relatively small children are hungry. She wants to lay down with her feet up. Or worse, she has a pounding headache. What does she do? She makes herself make a good dinner for her children because she loves them but the decision to feed them is dry will pure. She does it because she loves them and she is glad she is able to feed them, but she is not joyful nor is the sacrifice less of one because she loves them. Mothers do this all the time and it is out of love but that does not mean it is not a less than joyful sacrifice. I personally think the task to do something for someone because you love them although it is painful, difficult, costly and you have absolutely no joy in doing so is the more precious gift. The one that was a joy and therefore easy to do is less weighty.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm wouldn't be so sure.

7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
Matthew 15:7-9 NKJV

My statement was that no one obeys the living God and nevertheless hates him. This scripture does not say that they obey God and hate him. It actually says they teach the commandments of MEN, not the commandments of God. So no, they are not obeying God but obeying man. It does say they do not love God but that is not unusual.

 

[Tenchi]

He desired them NOT to eat of it, that is to choose not to eat of it. That is what He said and there is a reason. The reason is refusing to do wrong teaches a man more about right and wrong than doing wrong. That is still true today.

Can you explain what you mean? How, exactly, does refusing to do wrong teach someone more about right and wrong than doing wrong? Where is this reasoning even hinted at in the Genesis account of the Fall?

But why does that exclude learning the difference between right and wrong?

I'm not sure what it is you think I'm saying that prompts you to ask this question...

Jesus struggled to obey at the Garden.

No, I don't think he did. In his humanness, he acknowledged that the coming "cup" of suffering he was to endure was not something he eagerly desired to endure. It would have been a bizarre thing for him to want such suffering, don't you think? I do. Anyway, Jesus gave no sign he was "struggling to obey," though he was naturally distressed at the terrible prospect of his approaching crucifixion, as any human would be.

He did not thank God for an ever-enlarging experience of the power of the Holy Spirit.

Why would he? He was God incarnate and needed no enlarging of his experience of the Holy Spirit. He lived, I believe, in a constant experience of perfect fellowship with the Spirit, as one would expect of the members of the Godhead.

Peter's descriptions of his sufferings were ones of enduring unpleasantness that did not become pleasant. Paul listed the things he had suffered by obedience and they were obviously sufferings.

It looks to me here like you're conflating the suffering resulting from obedience to God with the one's experience of God Himself. What I described to you was my direct, personal experience of the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. His transforming, joy-giving work may lead me into circumstances that involve suffering for the sake of Christ, but the experience of this suffering is the by-product of my experience of fellowship with God.

Jesus actually told us to DENY ourselves. Denying is not pleasant. It is unpleasant. He did not say that we will love God and so we won't have to deny ourselves but will do our desire too.

Denying myself under the wrong motivation and by the wrong power source is definitely unpleasant. I lived this way for decades, so I well know that this is the case. But I'm discovering that as I live in submission to the Spirit and he fills me with all the good things he is, denying my fleshly Self, my "old man" (Romans 6:6), is not an onerous effort but increasingly a joy. Why? Because doing so improves my experience of God, it fosters in my heart and mind a fuller in-filling of the Holy Spirit. And as the love of God in the Person of the Spirit also expands in my life in response to my submission to Him, along with joy there is an increasing desire (love) for more of God, whatever the cost.

For nearly thirty years, I practiced and taught a Japanese martial art. Doing so required that I deny myself in all sorts of ways. In order to achieve my martial arts goals, I denied myself certain career choices and the greater wealth that would have resulted; I denied myself time with friends and family; I denied myself physical comfort, enduring countless hours of sweat, exhaustion and pain; I denied myself the safety of circumstances that would not humiliate me, testing myself again and again - and often failing - in order to reach my desired level of skill, and so on. Why? My sister thought it was just enormous self-discipline and one day said so to me. I laughed in surprise at her assessment. It wasn't discipline that had prompted all the years of self-denial in martial training but LOVE. I LOVED the training and the knowledge and skill I obtained from it! And that was what kept me at it despite the huge cost to myself. Looking back, nothing else could have so powerfully motivated me to endure what I did in pursuit of my martial art goals.

This is the case in my walk with the Lord, too. He knows love is the best - really, the only - thing strong enough to keep me moving forward with Him in the face of all that must be sacrificed in order to do so. When love is what motivates my self-denial, it isn't a sour business but a joy to abandon myself for more of Christ. And the compensating experience of God is more than sufficient to keep me eagerly yielding up more and more of myself to Him. So it is that God calls all of His children, not to rule-keeping first of all, but to love:

Matthew 22:36-38 (NASB)
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
(All caps not mine. Software configuration.)

But let me ask you, do those around you find that you are loving them as you love yourself without any effort as the self is dead (already accomplished by God for you) and you are therefore NEVER EVER selfish?

Hah! Goodness, no! Not yet, anyway. But I'm moving ever-closer to such a place - though not through a bitter, strenuous stuffing-down of myself, but by living in submission to God more and more throughout each day. The Great Battle of the Christian life isn't, it turns out, to corral myself, to press and push myself under control, but to live with Christ enthroned upon my heart, yielding to him day-in and day-out as I drive my car, wait in line at the grocery store, brush my teeth, love my wife, disciple men at my church, or whatever.

Romans 6:12-13 (NASB)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Romans 12:1 (NASB)
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

James 4:6-7 (NASB)
6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."
7 Submit therefore to God...

1 Peter 5:5-6 (NASB)
5 ...for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,

Micah 6:8 (NASB)
8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

When God is in control of me, I want what He wants, I do what He wants me to do, I am filled with who He is, reflecting His character, and wisdom, and love more and more in my daily living - all without a tearing, bitter struggle to do so. And this is so, because He is the One doing the changing of me; I'm not trying to change myself for Him.

If your obedience is as delightful and easy as you say, you ought to be rather sinless obeying God each day in each encounter with people.

More and more as the days pass. Though, I'm still a long way from perfect.

 

[Tenchi]

Not sure what you mean but the "if" is definitely there. In Greek it is "eau." If ye love me, keep my commandments. The alternatively is also true, if we do not keep his commands, we do not love Him or not much. To the degree we obey, to that same degree we love.

Well, when I use the word "if," I'm using a conditional word, a word that is conditioned upon something. For example: If Tommy drinks poison, he will die. In this instance, Tommy's death is conditioned upon, or predicated upon, his drinking poison. Only if Tommy drinks poison will he be killed by it. But before Tommy dies of the poison, he must first drink it; the drinking of the poison is the necessary condition for dying of it. Can you see that drinking the poison and dying of it are not identical things?

In the same way, loving God comes before obeying Him - or it should. Because Tommy loves God, he will obey Him; love for God must exist in Tommy before he obeys God because his obedience is supposed to arise from his love for God. It can't be, then, that Tommy's love for God and the way he expresses that love are the exact same thing. And so, we say, as Christ did, "If you (Tommy, me, Dorothy Mae, or whoever), keep my commandments." Tommy must first desire God - that is, love Him - and then he may express that love in obedience to God's commands.

So in your view does a believer WAIT until they love God to obey? If they don't feel love do they then needs not obey?

What do you mean by "feel love"? What does God mean by "love"? Does He mean a sentimental, semi-romantic feeling of affection, as many Christians do? Absolutely not. God is not my boyfriend in whose arms I want to snuggle, like so many modern praise choruses describe. Yuck. By "love," God - and I - mean desire which may, or may not, have any emotional dimension whatever. When I trained as a martial artist, I did not wait for a teary-eyed emotion of semi-romantic affection for training before I trained. In fact, I can't recall a single time when thinking or talking about training ever moved me emotionally. My love for training didn't show up in such displays but in a persistent and consistent participation in the costly effort of training. I wanted to train very much; I had a powerful desire to do so; but there was no particular emotional content to this desire. This is true of many desires we humans have: When I desire to sleep, I don't necessarily have a feeling of affection for sleep, I just want to sleep; when I desire a glass of water, I don't necessarily experience an emotion of affection for water, I just go and get a glass of water and drink it; when I desire food, I don't necessarily weep tears of affection for pizza, I just order some.

So, too, when it comes to my desire - my love - for God and others. I want God and want the best for others but these desires, these loves, don't necessarily have an emotional component. Instead, I just pursue God and the well-being of others in my life, even when it costs to do so. This is surprisingly easy to do when the Power Source for this love is the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5; 15:30; Galatians 5:22; 2 Timothy 1:7). It's actually his love, not mine, that God wants from me. My own human love is foul, selfish, contingent and short-lived. God's is not. And when, by my submission to God, the Spirit is free to fill me up with himself, his holy, unlimited love flows out of me, both to God and to others.

You seem to want believers to wait until they feel love for God to obey him.

That all depends upon what you mean by "feel love for God." See above.

Can you give examples please.

Sure. Though, the key to living in Self-denial isn't a feeling of love but submission to God. I often ask myself these days, "Who is this?" If the answer is "Me," it's time to submit again to God. A rebel toward God - which is what I am when I am steering my own course through things - cannot expect to be properly empowered by Him. And so, when I am, or am tempted to be, frustrated, or temperamental, or passive, or fearful, or whatever, my first action isn't to rebuke myself, or quote Scripture to myself, or push myself down, it's to surrender myself anew to God. And so long as the impulse toward something I know is myself, that is fleshly, and not God continues, my response is to surrender again - and again, if necessary. As I said, this is the Great Battle of the Christian life, not forcing myself to deny what I want.

As I persist in remaining yielded to God, He responds to my agreement to His alteration of my thinking, and desires, and conduct (which is what my submission is, essentially), by dissolving the power of my fleshly impulses and creating in me new, godly desires. Often, I find myself well beyond a crossroad of temptation before I realize I've moved along God's way. His power is so profound and natural, I don't often see that He has worked until after the fact. This is an important way I distinguish Self-effort from the Spirit's work: Self-effort leaves me exhausted but the work of the Spirit moves me from strength to strength.

So, when I am talking with my wife, I often ask God to be in control of my desires, thinking, attitudes and words. I want my wife to meet Christ in me, not just me. As we talk together, if I become aware that the answer to the question "Who is this?" is "me," I submit again to God. I do the same thing when I'm driving, or discipling someone, or sitting idle, waiting to do something, or whatever.

In the garden, he was not joyful. Despising is not a joyful experience. You can read about the experience and it was NOT marked by Jesus being joyful.

Are you calling the writer of Hebrews a liar? I'm sure that's not what you intend, but it sounds like it, here. The prospect of horrendous pain did not fill Jesus with delight, but the "joy set before him" moved him into crucifixion, regardless. It is not essential to divine joy to be easy, comfortable and safe, you see. Such joy is not anchored in circumstance but in God and so it can be present, as God always is, even in the midst of terrible suffering.

Perhaps you mean well. Perhaps you are being condescending.

You'll see what you expect to see, I suspect. Condescension, however, is not my attitude but, rather, a desire to see my brothers and sisters in the Lord enjoying him abundantly.

But I will take the first and comfort you by telling you that I have experienced more than once, the thrill (and "thrill" is an understating the experience but the best English can offer) of God being pleased with my obedience.

Oh, sister, this is settling for a lesser thing. God would give you Himself in an overflowing measure, not merely His approval. He is our "exceeding great reward," just as He was for Abraham (Genesis 15:1). The approval of God is merely the by-product of a life filled with Him. The Joy and Wonder of the Christian life is a daily experience of God Almighty, His life increasingly replacing our own. (Romans 8:29; Galatians 2:20; 2 Corinthians 3:18; 4:10-11)

That is easy to understand as we know a person loves another by the choices they make to deny themselves and the greater the denial, the greater the love.

It's the other way 'round: the greater our love for God, the greater our obedience to Him and delight in dying to ourselves that His life might manifest more fully in us. In God's economy of things, love precedes obedience, never the other way around.

It says they did not even know they were naked. Now here is see a difficulty. You say you obey God easily and that is never a struggle but you are comfortable with changing what the text says.

??? I don't know what you're talking about here.

The Devil himself did not tell them they already knew good so why not experience bad. He did not think they knew good. Why would they eat it if they knew good already? Makes no sense.

You're ignoring my point about Adam and Eve knowing The Good personally, who is God. Inasmuch as they knew Him, they knew Good. Do you deny this? The ultimate locus of all good is God, right? Or do you think there is some other source of good?

What you are trying to do is think of how it would be if you were there but we do not know the mental state of a grown man and woman who, like small children, have no understanding of more right and wrong.

Being ignorant of the distinction between moral right and wrong did not mean Adam and Eve were childish, unable to comprehend things in an adult way. There is nothing in the Genesis account of the Fall that suggests to me they were childish in their understanding and conduct. Innocent, yes, but not childish; these aren't the same thing.

So, does a believer WAIT until they feel love for God overwhelming their other desires so that obedience is easy and pleasant and costs them nothing? Until obedience becomes easy, they needs not obey?

See above.

 

[Tenchi]

Love and Surrender

Philippians 2:13 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.Thanks for reading The Deeper Faith Monologue! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work. A few days ago, I was talking with a young man I've been discipling, discussing with...

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[Dorothy Mae]

Can you explain what you mean? How, exactly, does refusing to do wrong teach someone more about right and wrong than doing wrong? Where is this reasoning even hinted at in the Genesis account of the Fall?

The reason is not given and cannot be. The reason you offer is an offense to God and fits the Enemy's view, that God wanted them to remind ignorant. And we learn best by doing right as we know that is the right decision in those situations. If we do wrong, we still don't know what is right.

No, I don't think he did. In his humanness, he acknowledged that the coming "cup" of suffering he was to endure was not something he eagerly desired to endure. It would have been a bizarre thing for him to want such suffering, don't you think? I do. Anyway, Jesus gave no sign he was "struggling to obey," though he was naturally distressed at the terrible prospect of his approaching crucifixion, as any human would be.

What? He asked if that cup could be passed but NEVERTHELESS "thy will be done." That is what a struggle is.

Why would he? He was God incarnate and needed no enlarging of his experience of the Holy Spirit. He lived, I believe, in a constant experience of perfect fellowship with the Spirit, as one would expect of the members of the Godhead.

Where is that written? How do you know what Jesus experienced? I do not say it is not so but I would not be so quick to decide what Jesus experienced.

It looks to me here like you're conflating the suffering resulting from obedience to God with the one's experience of God Himself. What I described to you was my direct, personal experience of the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. His transforming, joy-giving work may lead me into circumstances that involve suffering for the sake of Christ, but the experience of this suffering is the by-product of my experience of fellowship with God.

OK, sounds good. But I am not mixing up things.

Denying myself under the wrong motivation and by the wrong power source is definitely unpleasant. I lived this way for decades, so I well know that this is the case. But I'm discovering that as I live in submission to the Spirit and he fills me with all the good things he is, denying my fleshly Self, my "old man" (Romans 6:6), is not an onerous effort but increasingly a joy. Why? Because doing so improves my experience of God, it fosters in my heart and mind a fuller in-filling of the Holy Spirit. And as the love of God in the Person of the Spirit also expands in my life in response to my submission to Him, along with joy there is an increasing desire (love) for more of God, whatever the cost.

OK

For nearly thirty years, I practiced and taught a Japanese martial art. Doing so required that I deny myself in all sorts of ways. In order to achieve my martial arts goals, I denied myself certain career choices and the greater wealth that would have resulted; I denied myself time with friends and family; I denied myself physical comfort, enduring countless hours of sweat, exhaustion and pain; I denied myself the safety of circumstances that would not humiliate me, testing myself again and again - and often failing - in order to reach my desired level of skill, and so on. Why? My sister thought it was just enormous self-discipline and one day said so to me. I laughed in surprise at her assessment. It wasn't discipline that had prompted all the years of self-denial in martial training but LOVE. I LOVED the training and the knowledge and skill I obtained from it! And that was what kept me at it despite the huge cost to myself. Looking back, nothing else could have so powerfully motivated me to endure what I did in pursuit of my martial art goals.

This is the case in my walk with the Lord, too. He knows love is the best - really, the only - thing strong enough to keep me moving forward with Him in the face of all that must be sacrificed in order to do so. When love is what motivates my self-denial, it isn't a sour business but a joy to abandon myself for more of Christ. And the compensating experience of God is more than sufficient to keep me eagerly yielding up more and more of myself to Him. So it is that God calls all of His children, not to rule-keeping first of all, but to love:

OK.

Matthew 22:36-38 (NASB)
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
(All caps not mine. Software configuration.)

Yes, it is an amazing commandment.

Hah! Goodness, no! Not yet, anyway. But I'm moving ever-closer to such a place - though not through a bitter, strenuous stuffing-down of myself, but by living in submission to God more and more throughout each day. The Great Battle of the Christian life isn't, it turns out, to corral myself, to press and push myself under control, but to live with Christ enthroned upon my heart, yielding to him day-in and day-out as I drive my car, wait in line at the grocery store, brush my teeth, love my wife, disciple men at my church, or whatever.

OK, sounds pretty good. And you are honest. How long have you been a believer?

Romans 6:12-13 (NASB)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Romans 12:1 (NASB)
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

James 4:6-7 (NASB)
6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."
7 Submit therefore to God...

1 Peter 5:5-6 (NASB)
5 ...for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,

Micah 6:8 (NASB)
8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

All wonderful statements of what God wants, aren't they?

When God is in control of me, I want what He wants, I do what He wants me to do, I am filled with who He is, reflecting His character, and wisdom, and love more and more in my daily living - all without a tearing, bitter struggle to do so. And this is so, because He is the One doing the changing of me; I'm not trying to change myself for Him.

Can you provide a scripture that says God wants to control us? I would suggest that God wants you to obey Him. I do not read that God wants to control us (like robots.)

More and more as the days pass. Though, I'm still a long way from perfect.

Ok, that is good. Maybe we are more similar than at first glance. Make no mistake, I have a deep passion for God, loving Him a great deal. You will see me defending Him against those who accuse Him of evil, for example.

 

[Barbarian]

I’m a fairly recent believer and I’ve been taking the time to really read through the Bible and meditate on certain passages, but I have a couple questions about a verse that’s really perplexing me!

Genesis Ch.1
15 The LORD God put the man in the Garden of Eden to take care of it and to look after it. 16 But the LORD told him, “You may eat fruit from any tree in the garden, 17 except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over!”

Firstly, why doesn’t God wish them to know right from wrong? And, how is Adam to understand it’s wrong to eat from the tree if he lacks the power of knowing right from wrong? How is he to understand that disobeying God is wrong?

It's an interesting question. Look at the story:

"This is the garden, Adam. Enjoy it, eat of its produce except for that tree over there. No, not that one, that one, right there. Never eat from that one. If you do, something terrible will happpen."

Now you don't need to be God to know enough about humans to realize what's going to happen next. Man eats, gains knowledge of good and evil, and is thus potentially capable of fellowship with God. But being unable to be truly good, he is estranged from God. That's what Jesus came and died for.

 

[jaybo]

I’m a fairly recent believer and I’ve been taking the time to really read through the Bible and meditate on certain passages, but I have a couple questions about a verse that’s really perplexing me!

Genesis Ch.1
15 The LORD God put the man in the Garden of Eden to take care of it and to look after it. 16 But the LORD told him, “You may eat fruit from any tree in the garden, 17 except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, you will die before the day is over!”

Firstly, why doesn’t God wish them to know right from wrong? And, how is Adam to understand it’s wrong to eat from the tree if he lacks the power of knowing right from wrong? How is he to understand that disobeying God is wrong?

Adam and Eve represent all of us. Everyone has a choice: "eat" from the tree of life or "eat" from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We can have faith and trust God with our lives or we can decide for ourselves what is good for our lives and what is not. Since we clearly are not God, the choice that we make can easily be the wrong one, as did Adam and Eve (prototypes of all people). The only remedy is to see the error of our egos and turn to God in faith.

 

[Tenchi]

The reason is not given and cannot be. The reason you offer is an offense to God and fits the Enemy's view, that God wanted them to remind ignorant.

Well, this sounds like you're admitting that your reasoning about what God wanted for Adam and Eve isn't anchored in the account of the Fall.

I wonder why you tend to respond in the aggressive you're-of-the-devil way that you do. In any case, as I've already pointed out, Adam and Eve were not ignorant in any regard that was important; for if the knowledge of Good and Evil that you say God wanted them to have was necessary, it stands to reason He would have given them that knowledge right from the start. And yet, He didn't. He wanted them to have a genuine, non-trivial choice that they could make between their will and His; but, if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the Forbidden Fruit, they wouldn't have remained diminished in some vital way, as a result.

And we learn best by doing right as we know that is the right decision in those situations. If we do wrong, we still don't know what is right.

??? I'm confused by what you've written here. If we do wrong and don't therefore know what is right, how do we know what we are doing is wrong? It sounds like you're saying that, if I murder Joe, I will have no awareness that doing so was evil. Only if I refuse to murder Joe, will I understand that murder is wrong. This doesn't make any sense to me...

What? He asked if that cup could be passed but NEVERTHELESS "thy will be done." That is what a struggle is.

No, it was merely an admission of his not wanting, in his humanness, the suffering of the cross. Jesus struggled with the prospect of terrible pain that was shortly to come, and his natural human desire to escape such pain, but his will to obey his Father remained rock-solid - as his "Not my will, but yours be done" declaration indicated. That Jesus did not want to suffer horrendously ("let this cup pass from me") does not mean he therefore did not want to do his Father's will. Many of us have, in much lesser ways, made the same choice, enduring hardship for a greater good, not enjoying suffering but embracing it nonetheless for a purpose that was more important than our suffering. Jesus did the same. I'm not sure why this is hard to understand...

Where is that written? How do you know what Jesus experienced? I do not say it is not so but I would not be so quick to decide what Jesus experienced.

I offered you a rationale for why I think it was so. Was Jesus not God incarnate? Was he not a member of the Trinity from eternity-past? Was he not the God-Man while he walked the earth? "Yes, he was," to all of these questions. And so, why is it a controversial thing to think his union with God the Holy Spirit was perfect, as it had been before the universe existed? It seems to me an odd thing to think otherwise.

Luke 3:21-22 (NASB)
21 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,
22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

In demonstration of the unique position in which Christ stood relative to God, the Holy Spirit made a visible show of resting upon Jesus and a divine voice from heaven declared Jesus' deity. The demonstration of Christ's sharing in the God-head seems clear to me here.

Luke 4:1 (NASB)
1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit...

I know of no place in any of the Gospels where it is even hinted at that Jesus had less than this complete filling by the Spirit.

John 20:22 (NASB)
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

How could Jesus simply breath the Spirit upon others if his connection to the Spirit was not perfectly unified? He did not pray that the Spirit would come upon his disciples, leaving it to the Spirit to decide what he would do. No, the union between the incarnate Christ and the Holy Spirit was so deep, so complete, that Jesus could direct the Spirit into others by just breathing on them.

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Here, Paul speaks of the Holy Spirit and Christ in an inseparable way, calling the Holy Spirit the "Spirit of Christ," in fact. The Trinitarian unity of the Godhead is clear in what Paul wrote, supporting the notion of a perfect union between the incarnate God-Man and the Holy Spirit.

OK, sounds pretty good. And you are honest. How long have you been a believer?

For fifty years now.

Can you provide a scripture that says God wants to control us? I would suggest that God wants you to obey Him. I do not read that God wants to control us (like robots.)

I didn't say God wanted to control us like robots. This is not the picture of the submitted life that I painted in my last post. God never controls me apart from my consent that He do so, which is why my surrender to Him throughout each day is necessary. Any time I want to take back control of myself, to sit on the throne of my heart where He ought to sit, I have the liberty to do so. No robot I know of has such liberty.

Ok, that is good. Maybe we are more similar than at first glance. Make no mistake, I have a deep passion for God, loving Him a great deal. You will see me defending Him against those who accuse Him of evil, for example.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, this sounds like you're admitting that your reasoning about what God wanted for Adam and Eve isn't anchored in the account of the Fall.

But it fits His character and elsewhere in the Bible where God wants man to understand. Ignorance was never a value to Him. That he wanted them to remain ignorant is what the Enemy said.

I wonder why you tend to respond in the aggressive you're-of-the-devil way that you do.

Personal attack. But that IS what the enemy said.

In any case, as I've already pointed out, Adam and Eve were not ignorant in any regard that was important; for if the knowledge of Good and Evil that you say God wanted them to have was necessary, it stands to reason He would have given them that knowledge right from the start.

No, it doesn’t stand to reason. That’s like saying if God wanted us to be literate we’d be born able to read.

And yet, He didn't. He wanted them to have a genuine, non-trivial choice that they could make between their will and His; but, if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the Forbidden Fruit, they wouldn't have remained diminished in some vital way, as a result.

Where is there an example of God doing this? That God was simply designing a test with no gain?

??? I'm confused by what you've written here. If we do wrong and don't therefore know what is right, how do we know what we are doing is wrong?

Easy, let’s take a non-moral example. You’re not sure the way. You take a road on the left. After a bit it’s a dead end. Wrong road. Do you now know therefore the right road when there at least 4 choices recently?

It sounds like you're saying that, if I murder Joe, I will have no awareness that doing so was evil. Only if I refuse to murder Joe, will I understand that murder is wrong. This doesn't make any sense to me...

You need a different example. Suppose you are in a difficult discussion and are not sure what is the right thing to say. This is say a godly matter as in right in Gods eyes. You say xyz. But as soon as you did, you realize that was wrong. Do you then know what would have been right? No

But if you’d said the right thing, the thing that your own mind and the HS confirms was right, you learned.

No, it was merely an admission of his not wanting, in his humanness, the suffering of the cross. Jesus struggled with the prospect of terrible pain that was shortly to come, and his natural human desire to escape such pain, but his will to obey his Father remained rock-solid - as his "Not my will, but yours be done" declaration indicated. That Jesus did not want to suffer horrendously ("let this cup pass from me") does not mean he therefore did not want to do his Father's will. Many of us have, in much lesser ways, made the same choice, enduring hardship for a greater good, not enjoying suffering but embracing it nonetheless for a purpose that was more important than our suffering. Jesus did the same. I'm not sure why this is hard to understand...

I understand it. I suspect you don’t. Do you like that response?

What you describe IS the struggle to do His will. That’s it. Why don’t you admit it can be something besides a continually and completely joyful experience?

I offered you a rationale for why I think it was so. Was Jesus not God incarnate? Was he not a member of the Trinity from eternity-past? Was he not the God-Man while he walked the earth? "Yes, he was," to all of these questions. And so, why is it a controversial thing to think his union with God the Holy Spirit was perfect, as it had been before the universe existed? It seems to me an odd thing to think otherwise.

Luke 3:21-22 (NASB)
21 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,
22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

In demonstration of the unique position in which Christ stood relative to God, the Holy Spirit made a visible show of resting upon Jesus and a divine voice from heaven declared Jesus' deity. The demonstration of Christ's sharing in the God-head seems clear to me here.

Luke 4:1 (NASB)
1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit...

If you stick to the scripture I agree. When you add to it trying to saying what Jesus experienced, it’s questionable. (not sure how to unbold on my phone.)

I know of no place in any of the Gospels where it is even hinted at that Jesus had less than this complete filling by the Spirit.

We cannot make positions based on what the scripture doesn’t say.

John 20:22 (NASB)
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

How could Jesus simply breath the Spirit upon others if his connection to the Spirit was not perfectly unified? He did not pray that the Spirit would come upon his disciples, leaving it to the Spirit to decide what he would do. No, the union between the incarnate Christ and the Holy Spirit was so deep, so complete, that Jesus could direct the Spirit into others by just breathing on them.

You do realize that he only gave the Spirit after the Resurrection right?

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Here, Paul speaks of the Holy Spirit and Christ in an inseparable way, calling the Holy Spirit the "Spirit of Christ," in fact. The Trinitarian unity of the Godhead is clear in what Paul wrote, supporting the notion of a perfect union between the incarnate God-Man and the Holy Spirit.




For fifty years now.



I didn't say God wanted to control us like robots. This is not the picture of the submitted life that I painted in my last post. God never controls me apart from my consent that He do so, which is why my surrender to Him throughout each day is necessary. Any time I want to take back control of myself, to sit on the throne of my heart where He ought to sit, I have the liberty to do so. No robot I know of has such liberty.

Where does scripture say he controls us ever? He doesn’t control man. Not ever. The Devil controls people. Scripture gives examples. God doesn’t do this.

So I ask where it says God controlled a man who then lost all free will over his mind and body? You say “control” but the Bible indicates “leads” which is more honorable to him. Which of us feels complimented when being told we control someone??

Interesting talk. I’d like to hear more particulars about your life with time and trust.

I really do have a passion for God and His honor.

 

[Tenchi]

But it fits His character and elsewhere in the Bible where God wants man to understand. Ignorance was never a value to Him. That he wanted them to remain ignorant is what the Enemy said.

There are things about which God would clearly want us to remain entirely ignorant: rape, theft, murder, incest, pedophilia, homosexuality, beastiality, etc.. Instead, God has called his children to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:15-16), having nothing whatever to do with what is evil (1 Corinthians 6:14-18; Ephesians 5:1-16).

No, it doesn’t stand to reason. That’s like saying if God wanted us to be literate we’d be born able to read.

But, generally, humans are able to read from birth. The capacity to do so must be trained and developed, of course, but it exists in a healthy, normal person right from birth. In contrast, a dog, or snake, or beetle cannot ever be taught to read; none of these possess the ability to read that is generally intrinsic to human beings.

Likewise, if God had intended Adam and Eve to be capable of making moral distinctions, like they were capable of reading, or appreciating beauty, or were self-aware, He would have instilled such a capacity within them. But He didn't. And so, I think it does stand to reason that such a capacity was not necessary to their proper function as human beings.

Where is there an example of God doing this? That God was simply designing a test with no gain?

I didn't say "God was designing a test with no gain." As I've explained, the "gain" of putting the Forbidden Tree in Eden was that Adam and Eve had, thereby, the freedom and concrete opportunity to choose between their will and God's. Without the presence of the Forbidden Tree, Eden would have been a kind of prison, within which they would have had no means of meaningfully exercising their free agency and, therefore, truly expressing love to their Maker.

Easy, let’s take a non-moral example.

??? You're making an assertion about morality, though. Why not do so within the moral sphere, then?

You’re not sure the way. You take a road on the left. After a bit it’s a dead end. Wrong road. Do you now know therefore the right road when there at least 4 choices recently?

But this isn't analogous to the moral state-of-affairs present in Eden. Adam and Eve were not uncertain as to what God, the Ultimate Law Giver, wanted concerning the Forbidden Fruit. The "right road" was not unknown. This is precisely why they were responsible for the evil choice they made to disobey God. They weren't "discovering morality" as they partook of the Forbidden Fruit; they knew full well they were disobeying the command of their Maker and that doing so was, at least, to put themselves before Him, to love themselves more and their Creator less, which is always at the heart of all sin (Romans 1:18-32).

You need a different example. Suppose you are in a difficult discussion and are not sure what is the right thing to say. This is say a godly matter as in right in Gods eyes. You say xyz. But as soon as you did, you realize that was wrong. Do you then know what would have been right? No

My example is a simple example that draws out the error in your thinking.

Not knowing exactly what to say is not the same as not knowing what is clearly wrong to say. I know in any situation where I'm speaking to another that certain things are always wrong: swearing, cursing, blaspheming, angry outbursts, ungracious speech, cruel accusation, gossip, slander, etc. I know this is so because God's word tells me so. Whatever I may choose to say in a given instance, if I am careful to obey God's constraints on my speech, I can say "the wrong thing" as far the other person is concerned and yet not be in contravention of God's commands. And so, it's possible to "say the wrong thing" (unhelpful, off-point, not sympathetic enough, etc.) without saying something that is morally wrong. In light of this, your example seems to me off-base as an analogy.

But if you’d said the right thing, the thing that your own mind and the HS confirms was right, you learned.

This isn't necessarily a moral accomplishment, though, which is why your analogy kind of falls flat, as far as I'm concerned.

I understand it. I suspect you don’t. Do you like that response?

??? I have no particular feeling about your response. I just consider its truth content.

What you describe IS the struggle to do His will. That’s it. Why don’t you admit it can be something besides a continually and completely joyful experience?

??? This is a Strawman, Dorothy Mae. Please re-read my posts more carefully. I have never contended that Jesus' session in Gethsemane was a "continually and completely joyful experience." This is entirely your cartoonish version of my remarks. A Strawman.

You seem to think that suffering and being joyful are mutually-exclusive things. They aren't. Divine joy is not anchored in circumstance but in God. And so, no matter what I endure, no matter how painful, I am always in God's presence and under His loving care and thus can still be joyful. I'm not speaking mere theory here, but lived experience.

 

[Tenchi]

We cannot make positions based on what the scripture doesn’t say.

Oh? The Bible never uses the phrase the "Trinitarian Godhead" but one can make a very strong case for the content of this phrase from the Bible. The Bible never says, "Don't sell illicit drugs to children," but we can make a solid case from Scripture for upholding such a rule. The Bible never speaks of "the finitude of the past," but this idea is clearly present in God's word. I wouldn't be so sure, then, Dorothy Mae, that "we cannot make positions based on what Scripture doesn't say."

You do realize that he only gave the Spirit after the Resurrection right?

You do realize that I quoted from the Gospel of John, right? And the verse says Jesus "breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" Whether or not the disciples actually received the Holy Spirit then or later in Acts 2 is beside my point. That Jesus could do what he did regarding the Holy Spirit, indicates a relationship to the Spirit far beyond what any mere mortal has ever attained.

Where does scripture say he controls us ever? He doesn’t control man. Not ever. The Devil controls people. Scripture gives examples. God doesn’t do this.

Where does the Bible ever speak of the Trinity, using this word specifically? Where does the Bible ever use the word "hamartiology"? And yet, the study of the doctrines of sin (hamartiology) is an entirely biblical business. Anyway, the idea of God being in control of the born-again believer is undeniably implicit in many places in Scripture. Such control is entailed in God's sovereignty, in Christ's Lordship over the believer, in the divine nature of the Holy Spirit in the life of every person in whom he dwells.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (NASB)
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

No believer is their own. They are a "purchased possession," paid for by Christ and owned by God. They no longer have sovereign right to their own bodies, having given up that right to God who has, in the Person of the Spirit, made them his "temple." It seems very clear to me in this passage that God is seeking more than just to "lead" a believer.

Colossians 3:2-3 (NASB)
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
The believer is dead? Their lives are hidden with Christ in God? This doesn't sound to me like believers have unilateral control over themselves but are now possessed of God who commands them to set their mind on Him, on "things above."

Romans 6:16-18 (NASB)
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

The Christian isn't co-piloting his life with God, but is, in fact, God's "slave of righteousness," obeying His will as such. There is no sharing of control; there aren't two sets of hands on the "steering wheel" of the Christian's life. God is God; He is the Boss, the one who gives the commands that the Christian follows. God is the only One in control of the Christian person - or He should be.

Romans 12:1 (NASB)
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

What happened to a sacrifice laid upon an altar to God? Did it have rights of its own? Did it have, as a sacrifice, the freedom to dictate what happened to itself? No, every sacrifice made to God was given such that all right to direct its use was relinquished by the one who made the sacrifice. In other words, a sacrifice had no rights, no power to dictate what happened to it. So, too, a "living sacrifice" to God. Such a sacrifice has yielded up all control to God who may do with it as He pleases.

Romans 10:9-13 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Jesus is Lord. He enters our lives as such, ruling as our Lord. We are merely "vessels sanctified and fit for the Master's use." (2 Timothy 2:21) Jesus calls the shots, dictating to us the manner and course of our lives, as is customary for a Lord to do.

And so on. If there is one thing the Bible repeatedly makes crystal clear it is that God is our Creator, Master, Ruler and King. He is, in fact, our very Life (Colossians 1:15-17; 3:4; John 1:4). And so, He intends to be in control of His child, shaping and ordering them according to His will and way, manifesting Himself in and through them.

So I ask where it says God controlled a man who then lost all free will over his mind and body?

Here's another Strawman. I never described the Christian person as one "who has lost all free will over their mind and body"? As I already pointed out to you, the divine control under which the Christian is to operate is not the sort under which a robot operates. At any time, the Christian person may step out of God's control - and the flow of His transforming power.

Which of us feels complimented when being told we control someone??

What does being complimented have to do with walking with God? Where in the Bible is such a thing ever stipulated as a concern God has in dealing with us? He seeks His own glory in and through us, not ours.

I really do have a passion for God and His honor.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

wait

 

[Tenchi]

Where does scripture say he controls us ever? He doesn’t control man. Not ever. The Devil controls people. Scripture gives examples. God doesn’t do this.

I wanted to make one other comment on this remark of yours. You appear to be equating being Spirit-controlled with demonic possession. It seems to me, though, that the devil's possession of people is just another of his many counterfeits of the Real Thing, dark mimicry of what God does. Where God asserts control of His child with grace, love, patience and faithfulness, the devil wrests control of a person with aggression, violence and fear; where God fulfills and transforms positively, the devil breaks down and destroys; where God gives over control of His child as they demand it, the devil binds those under his power, forcing them into his evil way. There is, then, as far as I can see, nothing but the sort of warped version of God's control that one would expect from the devil, in his possession of a person. But it isn't control itself that is an evil thing but the devil's perversion of it.

It occurs to me, also, that God is replicating in my life what is true in the universe at large. All of material reality emanates from God and functions according to His will and power, reflecting who He is in its order, beauty, complexity and wondrousness. I, too, emanate from God, and am made to function best in accord with His will and power, living under his control, reflecting His beauty, love, wisdom and holiness in all I do. And why should I not so live? If God orders the universe in which I live, why should He not order my own life, too? He is not God only of the cosmos but of me, as well.

Revelation 15:2-4 (NASB)
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.
3 And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
4 "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I wanted to make one other comment on this remark of yours. You appear to be equating being Spirit-controlled with demonic possession. It seems to me, though, that the devil's possession of people is just another of his many counterfeits of the Real Thing, dark mimicry of what God does. Where God asserts control of His child with grace, love, patience and faithfulness, the devil wrests control of a person with aggression, violence and fear; where God fulfills and transforms positively, the devil breaks down and destroys; where God gives over control of His child as they demand it, the devil binds those under his power, forcing them into his evil way. There is, then, as far as I can see, nothing but the sort of warped version of God's control that one would expect from the devil, in his possession of a person. But it isn't control itself that is an evil thing but the devil's perversion of it.

You need to provide examples and scripture of where God took over and controlled someone. It is a very unloving thing to do. And Satan does not always counterfeit so that we can use the exact same words but a different noun doing the action. They are actually pretty different for the discerning.

It occurs to me, also, that God is replicating in my life what is true in the universe at large. All of material reality emanates from God and functions according to His will and power, reflecting who He is in its order, beauty, complexity and wondrousness. I, too, emanate from God, and am made to function best in accord with His will and power, living under his control, reflecting His beauty, love, wisdom and holiness in all I do. And why should I not so live? If God orders the universe in which I live, why should He not order my own life, too? He is not God only of the cosmos but of me, as well.

This does not describe the God of the Bible. He did not make the world to control it. Material matter was made separated from him and does not emanate from Him. It functions as it was created but the living beings do not necessarily. He is not micro managing the world where you live. He is not micro managing the people either, which is pretty obvious despite the theology that insists He is. They are free to choose.

Revelation 15:2-4 (NASB)
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.
3 And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
4 "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

Not a single word about being controlled and how wonderful that is. I have come to some understanding now and will likely not respond to the previous long posts. They are too long in any case to answer on my cell phone which is my usual apparatus on the train. This one was, thankfully, short.

 

[Tenchi]

You need to provide examples and scripture of where God took over and controlled someone. It is a very unloving thing to do. And Satan does not always counterfeit so that we can use the exact same words but a different noun doing the action. They are actually pretty different for the discerning.

I've already offered many Bible verses that describe the Master-servant relationship between God and the born-again (Romans 6:13-22), the Master-vessel relationship (2 Timothy 2:24) and Vine and branch (John 15:4-5) analogies, too. All of these speak to the nature of the dynamic in place between God and His adopted children. The servant obeys his Master; he is slave to his Master's will, without the liberty to live just as he wishes but instead conforming his life to whatever his Master dictates to him. A branch has no will of its own; it doesn't function separate from the Tree from which it grows, but is entirely dependent upon the life of the Tree for its existence. And the fruit the branch produces is dictated by the nature of the Tree, too. A branch is a receiver of, and conduit for, the life of the Tree; it has no other purpose. What of the "vessel sanctified and fit for the Master's use"? Does a water-pitcher have a will of its own? Does it determine with what it will be filled and when? Does it have control over the pouring-out of its contents? "No" to all of these questions. The vessel, the water-pitcher, is entirely under the power of the one who owns it, its Master. The pitcher cannot function as a vessel without the will and power of the Master who fills it as he wills, and empties it when he wishes. All of these analogies communicate very clearly that God does more than merely lead His children. He enters them in the Person of the Spirit and replaces them with the life of Christ, making of them His "temple" (2 Corinthians 6:19-20) and commanding them to be "living sacrifices" to His will (Romans 12:1).

How can it be "unloving" for God to control His children by His Spirit? Is it unloving when a human parent restrains their young, wayward child who would otherwise run dangerously amok in a busy parking lot, or touch a snarling dog, or put a filthy coin in its mouth? Though the little one may kick and scream, the parent will exert very direct control over her in order to protect her from her own childish foolishness. God does no less in His care of us, His children, except that we must choose for Him to do so.

Is it unloving for God to take over control of creatures who, by themselves, possess hearts that are "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9) in whose flesh "dwells no good thing" (Romans 7:18) and who are fleshly-minded apart from God, utterly unable to please Him and headed for destruction (Romans 8:5-8)? No. What hope is there for such creatures on their own, dictating the course of their lives? God says they all travel the Broad Way to hell (Matthew 7:13-14). If they won't submit themselves to the Savior, and Lord of All Creation, Jesus Christ, they will be forever separated from God and cast into "the blackness of darkness forever." God's love for us requires that He take us over, that He control those who cannot control themselves, rescuing them from themselves.

This does not describe the God of the Bible. He did not make the world to control it.

??? Dorothy Mae, if God ceased to exist in the next instant, so would everything else. God is the "Ground of All Reality," He is the Ultimate Source of everything and "in Him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:28; John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16-17) God absolutely has the most intimate and fundamental control of all things! Am I talking about determinism, here? No. I don't think determinism properly describes reality. But thinking so doesn't necessitate that I believe the universe is entirely random and free-wheeling, detached from God and following its own course, either. Consider what God said to Job:

Job 38:8-12 (NASB)
8 "Or who enclosed the sea with doors When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
9 When I made a cloud its garment And thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 And I placed boundaries on it And set a bolt and doors,
11 And I said, 'Thus far you shall come, but no farther; And here shall your proud waves stop'?
12 "Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, And caused the dawn to know its place,

Job 39:26-27 (NASB)
26 "Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars, Stretching his wings toward the south?
27 "Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up And makes his nest on high?

The psalmist wrote:

Psalm 115:3 (NASB)
3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

How would this be possible in a world in which God doesn't have control? Wouldn't those things He doesn't control interfere with doing whatever He pleases? What if He was pleased to control those things over which you think He has no control? He would not be able to do whatever He pleases, then, because over those things He has no control, in your view. So, who's got it right? You or the Bible?

Consider, too, the circumstance of Adam and Eve. Did they have input into who and what God made them? No. Not a bit. Did Adam and Eve agree to living in Eden as husband and wife before God made it so? Nope. Was there negotiation between Adam and God about the things God commanded Adam to do (ie. naming the animals)? Again, no. And so on. The idea that Adam and Eve were utterly free of God's control is unbiblical, though they did have at least one genuinely free opportunity to choose between their own will and God's.

Material matter was made separated from him and does not emanate from Him.

Nope. See above.

He is not micro managing the world where you live. He is not micro managing the people either, which is pretty obvious despite the theology that insists He is. They are free to choose.

It's simplistic thinking to hold that it must be one or the other. God does manage things in a very intricate degree but this doesn't mean you have no genuinely-free choices whatever that you can make. Every molecule of your being exists by God's will and power; your soul is His creation; but He has so ordained that you may freely choose between certain things, regardless.

Not a single word about being controlled and how wonderful that is. I have come to some understanding now and will likely not respond to the previous long posts. They are too long in any case to answer on my cell phone which is my usual apparatus on the train. This one was, thankfully, short.

Control is implied in the titles of "Lord," "God," "King," and "Almighty." A King is not a King if he has no power over his subjects and cannot control their lives, if only in a removed, political manner. What is a "Lord" if not one who rules over his fiefs, directing and controlling their lives as his living chattel? What does it mean to be "Almighty" if there are creatures whose freedom removes them from your power and control?

I suppose, though, regardless of the truth, many people will see only what they wish to see...